GWR to Kingston?

[cc97]

So if you've seen Jago Hazzard's new video, he briefly mentions the Great Western Railway were looking at getting into Kingston-Upon-Thames. Now anyone who knows their railway history is familiar with how the LSWR and GWR were deadly rivals so maybe this isn't too surprising but my question now is how would the GWR had reached Kingston exactly? Would it have been a branch off their main line like the Staines line they used to have? And where would it have branched off at? The only one I can realistically see is Ealing Broadway.
Does anyone have any more information on this? I know the GWR had plans to have a branch off the GWML to reach Sunbury and Shepperton off Ealing, does anyone know what the intermediate stations would have been there?

Underground to Kingston-Upon-Thames?

 

[Pigeon]

When the Great Western Railway was first proposed, they hadn't made up their minds where the London end was going to go, and came up with several possibilities for the route of the approach. One of these involved crossing the Thames somewhere around Kingston and ending up somewhere around Waterloo. But this idea seems to have been dropped at a very early stage.

 

[cc97]

When the Great Western Railway was first proposed, they hadn't made up their minds where the London end was going to go, and came up with several possibilities for the route of the approach. One of these involved crossing the Thames somewhere around Kingston and ending up somewhere around Waterloo. But this idea seems to have been dropped at a very early stage.

I thought the original intention was to terminate at Euston, if the London & Birmingham would grant them a lease to share.

What are your sources, i'd like to read them for myself?

 

[45Fox]

I thought the original intention was to terminate at Euston, if the London & Birmingham would grant them a lease to share.

What are your sources, i'd like to read them for myself?

Broad (or mixed) gauge into Euston would certainly have been interesting!

 

[norbitonflyer]

The GWR did run a service to Richmond, via the H&C (which was a joint enterprise with the Met). Extending over the LSWR to Kingston might have been possible, but it is unlikely the LSWR would have co-operated - they were after all, not keen on the Districts plans to extend south from Hounslow Town, and the LSWR could have revoked the running powers over the Hammersmith to Richmond section, which they owned, if they felt the GWR or the District were biting the hand that fed them. .

 

[Pigeon]

I thought the original intention was to terminate at Euston, if the London & Birmingham would grant them a lease to share.

That was another possibility which didn't come off, mainly due to the decision to use 7ft gauge.

What are your sources, i'd like to read them for myself?

MacDermot's History of the GWR.

 

[Rescars]

Broad (or mixed) gauge into Euston would certainly have been interesting!

The GWR did find a way across the Thames to access Victoria with the broad gauge via the West London line.

 

[The Pelican]

I think the two main questions for a GWR Kingston route are
1. Via Brentford or not via Brentford
2. Via the Northern/Western or the Southern/Eastern side of the Thames.

In the first case, Brentford is the nearest part of the ex-GWR to Kingston, and a branch that diverged somewhere around the A4 would find it easy to go West of Syon House to reach St Margrets and Isleworth. On the other hand, the Brentford Branch faces the wrong way from Paddington for through services, so a chord somewhere between a sharp curve outside Southall depot at the shortest, or a direct branch to Ealing at the longest, would have had to be built.

In the second case, it would depend on whether the GWR branch was built before or after the LSWR Kingston loop, which looks like it opened in 1863. Earlier than this, the Western/Northern side of the river would have made more sense. Later than this, the Eastern side would have offered the best chance to serve a new market, with a Petersham and a Ham station. I think a line on the Western bank would terminate in a small station to the West of Kingston Bridge, while I imagine a line on the Eastern Bank would bypass Kingston to the East (sharing or not sharing Kingston station as appropriate) and then run to Surbiton, with or without exchange sidings!

 

[sh24]

The GWR did find a way across the Thames to access Victoria with the broad gauge via the West London line.

IIRC there was a large GWR goods depot adjacent to Battersea Power Station?

 

[contrex]

IIRC there was a large GWR goods depot adjacent to Battersea Power Station?

There were goods and in particular coal depots belonging to other railways in various parts of south London. They were reached usually by running powers. My infants and junior schools in Rosendale Road, West Dulwich, were immediately adjacent to the ex-LNWR Knights Hill coal depot located between North Dulwich and Tulse Hill on the LBSCR. The wagons were collected from and returned to Lillie Bridge on the West London Extension Railway, by the LBSCR and successors. Interesting article on the SeMG - 'The Foreign Goods Depots of south London' from The Railway Magazine, November 1960:

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/ForeignDepotsofSthLondon.pdf

This is a 1952 photo from that article - the scene was pretty much unchanged when I started school five years later, just out of the picture on the right - you can see the roadside caution sign with a triangle on top. Neither bridge is there now - the one carrying the siding was removed in the 1960s and the one carrying the London Bridge-Tulse Hill line was replaced in the 1970s. When I was at school there 1957-63, one bridge was painted blue, and the other green, but I can't remember which was which. The ornamental plaques in the middle said '1866' if I remember correctly.

 

[Rescars]

Interesting article on the SeMG - 'The Foreign Goods Depots of south London' from The Railway Magazine, November 1960:

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/Foreign DepotsofSthLondon.pdf

Interesting article indeed. The decision to rebuild Walworth Road in 1959 to handle 70,000 tons of house coal annually using 16 ton wagons being manoeuvres individually with a traverser and presumably emptied manually into coal drops does seem to be remarkable and belonging to another era. Out on the roads, 1959 was the year Austin and Morris launched the Mini.

 

[contrex]

1959 was the year Austin and Morris launched the Mini.

And my mum & dad bought our first telly, a Stella ST1007U, in time for Christmas!

 

[Dr_Paul]

I think the two main questions for a GWR Kingston route are
1. Via Brentford or not via Brentford
2. Via the Northern/Western or the Southern/Eastern side of the Thames.

In the first case, Brentford is the nearest part of the ex-GWR to Kingston, and a branch that diverged somewhere around the A4 would find it easy to go West of Syon House to reach St Margrets and Isleworth. On the other hand, the Brentford Branch faces the wrong way from Paddington for through services, so a chord somewhere between a sharp curve outside Southall depot at the shortest, or a direct branch to Ealing at the longest, would have had to be built.

In the second case, it would depend on whether the GWR branch was built before or after the LSWR Kingston loop, which looks like it opened in 1863. Earlier than this, the Western/Northern side of the river would have made more sense. Later than this, the Eastern side would have offered the best chance to serve a new market, with a Petersham and a Ham station. I think a line on the Western bank would terminate in a small station to the West of Kingston Bridge, while I imagine a line on the Eastern Bank would bypass Kingston to the East (sharing or not sharing Kingston station as appropriate) and then run to Surbiton, with or without exchange sidings!

Kingston to Paddington would have posed some real problems. One is required to do what the LSWR did -- a loop around from Twickenham, or approach from the south-east -- if one does not wish to tunnel through the ridge to the east of the town and under Richmond Park. A north-south route through Richmond would have to deal with the town centre, which sits between the Thames and Richmond Hill, and is thus pretty much precluded.

I agree that connecting with the Brentford Branch would be a circuitous journey (almost as bad as Richmond to Ludgate Hill via Shepherds Bush), and that a branch from Ealing would be the most obvious way. The terrain is very flat in that part of Middlesex (what's called Hampton Hill is a full 30 feet above the surrounding area) and a line would thus be inexpensive to build. A lot depends upon when the GWR was thinking of going to Kingston: the LSWR didn't reach the town until 1863, with a branch coming round from Twickenham. As the GWR's approach to Kingston from Ealing would necessarily take much the same course from Twickenham as the LSWR in order to avoid Bushey Park, if it was mooted after the LSWR built its line then it would be in effect a duplicate line. Within a few years of arriving at Kingston from Twickenham, the LSWR line was extended south-eastwards to join the main line to Waterloo, a sensible thing to do. Would the GWR line have gone further east of Kingston, or merely stop there? If it were to go eastwards, to where might it have gone? A GWR line to Kingston via Ealing would, I believe, have been superfluous, especially once the LSWR ran to central London via Wimbledon.

 

[181]

A north-south route through Richmond would have to deal with the town centre, which sits between the Thames and Richmond Hill, and is thus pretty much precluded.

Or perhaps you could tunnel underneath it (or the hill just east of it if a tunnel under the town centre would have been too near the surface) -- a quick look at the map suggests it might be about half a mile. The feasbility of that would presumably have depended on how much money the company were willing and able to spend.

 

[The Pelican]

Kingston to Paddington would have posed some real problems. One is required to do what the LSWR did -- a loop around from Twickenham, or approach from the south-east -- if one does not wish to tunnel through the ridge to the east of the town and under Richmond Park. A north-south route through Richmond would have to deal with the town centre, which sits between the Thames and Richmond Hill, and is thus pretty much precluded.

I agree that connecting with the Brentford Branch would be a circuitous journey (almost as bad as Richmond to Ludgate Hill via Shepherds Bush), and that a branch from Ealing would be the most obvious way. The terrain is very flat in that part of Middlesex (what's called Hampton Hill is a full 30 feet above the surrounding area) and a line would thus be inexpensive to build. A lot depends upon when the GWR was thinking of going to Kingston: the LSWR didn't reach the town until 1863, with a branch coming round from Twickenham. As the GWR's approach to Kingston from Ealing would necessarily take much the same course from Twickenham as the LSWR in order to avoid Bushey Park, if it was mooted after the LSWR built its line then it would be in effect a duplicate line. Within a few years of arriving at Kingston from Twickenham, the LSWR line was extended south-eastwards to join the main line to Waterloo, a sensible thing to do. Would the GWR line have gone further east of Kingston, or merely stop there? If it were to go eastwards, to where might it have gone? A GWR line to Kingston via Ealing would, I believe, have been superfluous, especially once the LSWR ran to central London via Wimbledon.

I think a GWR route built post- LSWR Kingston Loop line would have stopped at a Richmond (Road) station somewhere like St Margrets, and then crossed south of the river where the river runs-east west, with a second station and Petersham and a third at Ham. I think the GWR could either have terminated north of Kingston, somewhere like Canbury Gardens, or run slightly to the East and built a reasonably central station.

I think a GWR route built before the Kingston Loop in 1863, although after the LSWR opened the Kingston, later Surbiton station on it's mainline in 1838, would have possibly used a Roehampton Vale and Putney Vale route, then headed for Old Oak Common north of Barnes. Lots of Victorian railway routes were fairly circular as there were fewer competitors to the railway.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I think a GWR route built post- LSWR Kingston Loop line would have stopped at a Richmond (Road) station somewhere like St Margrets, and then crossed south of the river where the river runs-east west, with a second station and Petersham and a third at Ham. I think the GWR could either have terminated north of Kingston, somewhere like Canbury Gardens, or run slightly to the East and built a reasonably central station.

That's a good thought, one that didn't occur to me. Mind you, I think that the owners of the many big houses in Ham and Petersham might well have objected to a railway running at the back of their gardens.

 

[The Pelican]

That's a good thought, one that didn't occur to me. Mind you, I think that the owners of the many big houses in Ham and Petersham might well have objected to a railway running at the back of their gardens.

Certainly, and the attractive houses were there well before the railway- John Henry Newman always remembered his childhood in Ham, just as John Ruskin always remembered growing up in Herne Hill, and Robert Browning in Camberwell- but I assume a compromise rerouting or compensation scheme would have been found.

 

[norbitonflyer]

That's a good thought, one that didn't occur to me. Mind you, I think that the owners of the many big houses in Ham and Petersham might well have objected to a railway running at the back of their gardens.

Crossing west of the grounds of Marble Hill House and Ham House, near (or even via) the eastern tip of Eel Pie Island, might have been feasible. As far as i am aware, there was nothing but gravel pits between Ham Common and the river until the 1960s housing estate was built there.

 

[The Pelican]

This vaguely relates to the Kingston Tube proposals- I have heard it said that a Kingston tube station was supposed to go in the Bentalls warehouse. Of course, it's not clear which direction a tube line would have come from- the District Line from Wimbledon or Richmond along or parallel to the LSWR would have provided the most obvious two options, a District Line branch direct from Putney via Roehampton Vale a third, an extension from the Northern Line at South Wimbledon along Kingston Road to Raynes Park and New Malden forth, and something from the Hounslow District/Piccadilly branch fifth. This Mayoral question from 2003 considers a Crossrail branch to Kingston via Richmond and, presumably, Old Oak Common. https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-ar...s/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/crossrail-20

 

[norbitonflyer]

This Mayoral question from 2003 considers a Crossrail branch to Kingston via Richmond and, presumably, Old Oak Common.

Not Old oak Common. it would have branched off shortly after paddington - proobaly still in tunnel, and gone via Shepherds Bush and Turnham Green, releiving the District Line of one of its branches.

Crossrail - Crossrail to go for Turnham Green option

This was qactually a reviqal of an older scheme (1980s?) that would have had a second branch of the Bakerloo branching off near Wiillesden Junction , via North Acton to Ealing Broadway, over what is currentky the Central Line's Ealing Broadway branch. The Central Line would instaed get a new branch from Shepherds Bush to Turnham Green, where it would continue to Richmond over waht is currently the District Line. (This branch of the Central was in fact first proposed in 1913)

This would mean all four Tube lines in west London would have had two branches (instead of one having three, and another only one), and the Central's branches would be of much more equal length, justifying similar frequencies on both.
Bakerloo - Harrow and Ealing
Central - West Ruislip and Richmond
District - Wimbledon and Ealing
Piccadilly - Heathrow and Uxbridge (iunchanged)

An alternative would have had the District regain the Rayners Lane branch, to allow are more frequent service to Heathrow

 

[The Pelican]

Not Old oak Common. it would have branched off shortly after paddington - proobaly still in tunnel, and gone via Shepherds Bush and Turnham Green, releiving the District Line of one of its branches.

Crossrail - Crossrail to go for Turnham Green option

This was qactually a reviqal of an older scheme (1980s?) that would have had a second branch of the Bakerloo branching off near Wiillesden Junction , via North Acton to Ealing Broadway, over what is currentky the Central Line's Ealing Broadway branch. The Central Line would instaed get a new branch from Shepherds Bush to Turnham Green, where it would continue to Richmond over waht is currently the District Line. (This branch of the Central was in fact first proposed in 1913)

This would mean all four Tube lines in west London would have had two branches (instead of one having three, and another only one), and the Central's branches would be of much more equal length, justifying similar frequencies on both.
Bakerloo - Harrow and Ealing
Central - West Ruislip and Richmond
District - Wimbledon and Ealing
Piccadilly - Heathrow and Uxbridge (iunchanged)

An alternative would have had the District regain the Rayners Lane branch, to allow are more frequent service to Heathrow

It's always seemed a shame to me that more use isn't made of the four track section to Northfields. It's interesting to imagine Piccadilly line trains running from Hammesmith to Boston Manor (with new slow line platforms) without stopping...

 

[Class 317]

I have the history of the GWR book series somewhere where it goes into detail on this subject. I'll try to dig it out and add some details to this thread of actual plans etc over the next few days but Kingston was definitely on the agenda for GWR

 

[Pigeon]

There are no plans in my copy. Did Ian Allan miss stuff out when they reprinted it?

 

[Class 317]

There are no plans in my copy. Did Ian Allan miss stuff out when they reprinted it?

It's called The history of the Great Western Railway by E.T McDermot and comes in 3 volumes just to make sure we are talking about the same book.

 

[Pigeon]

Yep, that's the one. My copy mentions that a Kingston route was a very early possibility that they considered, but it has no plans of anything that early; all it has is one sketch entitled "Prospectus Plan", dating from a couple of years later when they had abandoned that idea, and showing the route pretty much as built.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I thought the original intention was to terminate at Euston, if the London & Birmingham would grant them a lease to share.

What are your sources, i'd like to read them for myself?

I think Brompton and Vauxhall were other possible termini.