GWR Sunday Cancellations - crew availability - why?

[JamesT]

Remember, railway staff work to live, not live to work. They want their time off to enjoy life.

The only solution is to employ more staff and bring Sundays inside the working week, not classed as overtime. Even though that will take years to do.

Otherwise it's going to get ugly with more & more cash getting thrown around to encourage staff to come in on their days off to work, especially with the taxman taking their share of any payments.

I think the question I would have is what has changed? Previously it seemed staff were willing to work those days such that the service was largely covered, whereas now it seems not so much.

 

[Krokodil]

Gone are the days when the railway employed students as firemen in the summer. (That is genuine.)

Yes, Pete Waterman was one of them.

In the old days summer holiday traffic used to be covered by using freight guards on passenger work. Freight guards are long gone (except for the likes of DRS).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2024 ==

I think the question I would have is what has changed? Previously it seemed staff were willing to work those days such that the service was largely covered, whereas now it seems not so much.

Covid. People discovered that spending time with their families wasn't so bad, after all. It got them out of the habit of working as much overtime as possible, which they no longer needed to do as they were no longer on BR's poverty wages.

 

[Harpo]

In the old days summer holiday traffic used to be covered by using freight guards on passenger work.

Yes! I remember a Pantyffynnon freight guard who’d just refreshed DMUs for the summer winding up Swansea’s LDC rep, telling him he’d also refreshed HSTs…..and London!!

 

[Towers]

The self destruct, and cause the business shrink and go bankrupt approach by discouraging customers.
Didn't Gerald Ratner famously do something similar (and it killed Ratners)

To some extent railway has it easy as they have year round demand, so can have fairly constant staffing levels. In my university days had a summer job at a holiday park, they needed just few staff all year, but nearer 40 each summer peak season. Much harder to manage than fairly even demand 7 days a week.

What, as opposed to the current approach - do you not feel the current Sunday service ‘discourages’ customers?! I think the majority of intending passengers would prefer that TOCs provided a consistent, if limited, Sunday service rather than a complete lottery as to what runs each week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What, as opposed to the current approach - do you not feel the current Sunday service ‘discourages’ customers?! I think the majority of intending passengers would prefer that TOCs provided a consistent, if limited, Sunday service rather than a complete lottery as to what runs each week.

100% this. I'm far more discouraged by an hourly service with random cancellations than a 2-hourly service that runs as published.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Though the way things are going you’d just end up with a two hourly service with random cancellations too.

GWR have been struggling with this for years, particularly in the summer and around Christmas. It’s not changed in the last 30 years, I can’t see it changing anytime soon.

 

[lachlan]

Looking on the bright side at least if I get caught up in Sunday delays, my weekend travel is free thanks to delay repay.

 

[Class 317]

One question I'm not sure of the answer to but if Sundays were brought in as part of the working week for all how much would the Monday to Saturday service need to be trimmed to free up enough staff?
I'm also assuming the Sunday service would be trimmed as well.

This way you would get to a point where the service was reliable and staff were not forced into committed Sundays.In the medium term recruitment and training would need to be increased to restore staffing levels to a level allowing restoration of reduced services.

 

[Clarence Yard]

You would need to increase the existing staff establishment if Sunday became part of the working week. You wouldn’t reduce services to achieve it - that would be political suicide.

 

[infobleep]

Looking on the bright side at least if I get caught up in Sunday delays, my weekend travel is free thanks to delay repay.

I almost got some Delay Repay last night. I was travelling from Haywards Heath to Guildford and had broken my journey in Reigate for a meal with some work colleagues.

The 21:52 was cancelled. So I contacted GWR_Help on X, formerly known as Twitter, to ask if I could travel via Clapham Junction. This would have involved a double back and change of route, given I had diverted off at Redhill.

I got no reply. So I tried a second time a bit later. Nothing.

In the end it didn't matter, as afterwards it was decided we would go for a pint and so I was still out beyond 21:52, being in good time for the late running 22:46, which itself was delayed owing to the inbound service making additional stops due to an earlier cancellation.

So they avoided needing to pay me delay repay for last night. I will be claiming for the 30 minute delay on Monday due to a cancelled train though.

 

[Snow1964]

You would need to increase the existing staff establishment if Sunday became part of the working week. You wouldn’t reduce services to achieve it - that would be political suicide.

Yes, the staff have effectively determined how much overtime they are prepared to do (total hours they will cover, because remaining overtime on offer is not being taken up)

So need to employ more to cover the unfilled overtime to operate the full timetable. Probably easiest to assume the extra staff will do same average amount of overtime, so don't need to cover 100%.

Although really should be aiming for token number of spare cover being available, so that cancellations due to lack of staff are exceptionally rare, rather than routine.

 

[dk1]

Covid. People discovered that spending time with their families wasn't so bad, after all. It got them out of the habit of working as much overtime as possible, which they no longer needed to do as they were no longer on BR's poverty wages.

See I don’t understand that view on things when it comes to the railway. We as staff were not overly affected by the pandemic. Okay we had some more cushy shifts and if spare either went home early or came in later (some got lucky some days and sat at home) but just as much rest day working and Sunday shifts got covered so not much change really.

 

[Krokodil]

See I don’t understand that view on things when it comes to the railway. We as staff were not overly affected by the pandemic. Okay we had some more cushy shifts and if spare either went home early or came in later (some got lucky some days and sat at home) but just as much rest day working and Sunday shifts got covered so not much change really.

When the timetable was slashed for the first lockdown all RDW dried up here.

 

[dk1]

When the timetable was slashed for the first lockdown all RDW dried up here.

Very different here in East Anglia. Few services actually got pruned and those that did just gave crews longer breaks but overall the same numbers got needed with plenty of RDWs for those that wanted it.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Exactly. It is noticeable at my depot for instance, since HSS had our Sunday London work removed in favour of shuttling to and from Laira depot, the Sunday service has fallen apart. Its time GWR stopped acting ideologically and put the work where the drivers with route knowledge are.
For example, give Plymouth HSS mainly out and back London trains on a Sunday, say 8 turns, that would already be 8 London up and back trains covered driver wise all the way from Plymouth to London and back. Instead we see trains from the westcountry to London rostered for 3 different drivers then they wonder why the service falls apart.

Out of interest, is your depot made up of crew with entirely voluntary Sundays, or does it have staff with Sundays committed (or a mixture of both?) If it’s the former, then in the current situation, wouldn’t that just result in even more cancellations?

 

[irish_rail]

Out of interest, is your depot made up of crew with entirely voluntary Sundays, or does it have staff with Sundays committed (or a mixture of both?) If it’s the former, then in the current situation, wouldn’t that just result in even more cancellations?

I refer just to the HSS side where there are no committed Sundays, they are entirely voluntary.

 

[Annetts key]

Although really should be aiming for token number of spare cover being available, so that cancellations due to lack of staff are exceptionally rare, rather than routine.

I can't comment on the train crew side, but certainly in some functions when I joined BR they had rest day relief (RDR) staff and general purpose relief (GPR) staff. My first permanent position was as a GPR. The whole point of that position (GPR) was that I could be asked to cover other members of staff if they were on annual leave, training or off sick. Or to cover vacant positions. Trying to maintain the service was paramount back then. Second only to safety.

Due to understaffing, the department still needed what staff there was to work some overtime. Especially on weekends.

 

[RailExplorer]

This issue will get worse in my opinion over the next few years as more and more drivers start getting close to £100k without overtime. And the £100k tax bracket is frozen - has been for way too many years, and it appears to continue to stay frozen for too many more years still. It should have always moved upwards with inflation roughly.

An £80k salary with 33 RDs worked at £600 each is about £100k now. 33 RDs is only about 2-3 per month (so not much at all). At £100k you lose free childcare, and pay an awful lot of tax on the next £25k as you lose your personal allowance.

The TOCs/DfT really need to get their act together and employee enough staff to run the service without overtime. Or the £100k tax threshold needs moving higher. All wishful thinking.

 

[Taplowgreen]

I almost got some Delay Repay last night. I was travelling from Haywards Heath to Guildford and had broken my journey in Reigate for a meal with some work colleagues.

The 21:52 was cancelled. So I contacted GWR_Help on X, formerly known as Twitter, to ask if I could travel via Clapham Junction. This would have involved a double back and change of route, given I had diverted off at Redhill.

I got no reply. So I tried a second time a bit later. Nothing.

In the end it didn't matter, as afterwards it was decided we would go for a pint and so I was still out beyond 21:52, being in good time for the late running 22:46, which itself was delayed owing to the inbound service making additional stops due to an earlier cancellation.

So they avoided needing to pay me delay repay for last night. I will be claiming for the 30 minute delay on Monday due to a cancelled train though.

You won't get any help out of GWR's Twitter feed after 7pm these days - apparently "due to staff illness", it closes at 7pm every day until the New Year........clearly it's not only train crews they're short of, they can't spare anyone to answer messages either. Perhaps a nice idea for Hopwood and some of his senior managers to help - might give them some perception of what their customers are going through just now

 

[Goldfish62]

This issue will get worse in my opinion over the next few years as more and more drivers start getting close to £100k without overtime. And the £100k tax bracket is frozen - has been for way too many years, and it appears to continue to stay frozen for too many more years still. It should have always moved upwards with inflation roughly.

The term is "fiscal drag" and is deliberate. It enables governments to claim that taxes aren't increasing, which is true, while actually increasing the amount of tax revenues. By far the most pernicious of these is the £12,750 personal allowance.

 

[Krokodil]

By far the most pernicious of these is the £12,750 personal allowance.

To be fair, that followed several years when it had been raised substantially. It would be £9785 if it had followed inflation since 2010, so you're still better off than you would have been.

 

[infobleep]

You won't get any help out of GWR's Twitter feed after 7pm these days - apparently "due to staff illness", it closes at 7pm every day until the New Year........clearly it's not only train crews they are short of, they can't spare anyone to answer messages either. Perhaps a nice idea for Hopwood and some of his senior managers to help - might give them some perception of what their customers are going through just now

I did wonder about X, formerly Twitter, staff availability but dismissed the notion of staffing shortages there. I was wrong to do so.

Of course knowing their x, formerly Twitter, handle, I didn't think to go to their profile. I just typed in their username and posted my message.

I see at weekends they are open until 23:00. I thought more passengers travelled midweek or maybe it's just that on average they do but not after 7 pm.

 

[Class 170101]

Very different here in East Anglia. Few services actually got pruned and those that did just gave crews longer breaks but overall the same numbers got needed with plenty of RDWs for those that wanted it.

You couldn't really prune Rural services unless you dropped to a two hourly frequency which for some routes like the Felixstowe would be pointless as the same driver did the same block of work so would have had an hour between trips just sitting around.

Also what about all the training that went on then? That probably required RDW due to pairing off for drivers / trainees?

 

[dk1]

You couldn't really prune Rural services unless you dropped to a two hourly frequency which for some routes like the Felixstowe would be pointless as the same driver did the same block of work so would have had an hour between trips just sitting around.

Also what about all the training that went on then? That probably required RDW due to pairing off for drivers / trainees?

Yes lots of unlimited RDW throughout the pandemic. There wasn’t much else to do in life at the time.


We’ve got a couple of trains still missing and traincrew just end up with almost 2.5hrs pnb instead.

 

[Horizon22]

I think the question I would have is what has changed? Previously it seemed staff were willing to work those days such that the service was largely covered, whereas now it seems not so much.

Covid is one answer - people took stock of their work life balance. Another is the recent strikes; goodwill suffered and also the recent payout has meant people don't feel as compelled or need to do overtime.

There is also a feedback loop; more people don't work Sundays > more cancellations -> those working have a torrid time > decide to not volunteer for Sundays > more people don't work Sundays.

The timetable on Sundays has generally been built on assumptions that X% of people will work their shift. Currently the number is regularly significantly below X (something you often only used to see on warm Summer bank holiday weekends and major sporting events) and the timetable therefore doesn't work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2024 ==

You won't get any help out of GWR's Twitter feed after 7pm these days - apparently "due to staff illness", it closes at 7pm every day until the New Year........clearly it's not only train crews they're short of, they can't spare anyone to answer messages either. Perhaps a nice idea for Hopwood and some of his senior managers to help - might give them some perception of what their customers are going through just now

There are also staffing issues in Western route control (both TOC and NR) which are also short.

Apparently though GWR are running their full "advertised" timetable tomorrow: https://x.com/GWRHelp/status/1870095874585481425

 

[alastair]

Covid is one answer - people took stock of their work life balance. Another is the recent strikes; goodwill suffered and also the recent payout has meant people don't feel as compelled or need to do overtime.

There is also a feedback loop; more people don't work Sundays > more cancellations -> those working have a torrid time > decide to not volunteer for Sundays > more people don't work Sundays.

The timetable on Sundays has generally been built on assumptions that X% of people will work their shift. Currently the number is regularly significantly below X (something you often only used to see on warm Summer bank holiday weekends and major sporting events) and the timetable therefore doesn't work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2024 ==



There are also staffing issues in Western route control (both TOC and NR) which are also short.

Apparently though GWR are running their full "advertised" timetable tomorrow: https://x.com/GWRHelp/status/1870095874585481425

Although Barnstaple and Okehampton all cancelled until at least mid-afternoon tomorrow at least due to storm warning.

 

[Sleepy]

Certainly no crewing issues in south west today - GWR are running an additional service Plymouth - Penzance and return in paths of part cancelled Cross Country services (1300 ex Plymouth, 1537 from Penzance - castle class) Also covering a XC Exeter to Bristol.

 

[Taplowgreen]

Certainly no crewing issues in southwest today - GWR are running an additional service Plymouth - Penzance and return in paths of part cancelled Cross Country services (1300 ex Plymouth, 1537 from Penzance - castle class)

Amazing the difference an offer of double time makes to the urge to spend time with one's family on a Sunday!

 

[Goldfish62]

Amazing the difference an offer of double time makes to the urge to spend time with one's family on a Sunday!

Indeed.

 

[dk1]

Amazing the difference an offer of double time makes to the urge to spend time with one's family on a Sunday!

Exactly this. I never bought into this ‘people value more family time after the pandemic’ mumbo jumbo