GWR Sunday Cancellations - crew availability - why?

[Annetts key]

‘Archaic working practice’ might be better replaced by ‘exploitative employment practice’.

The first, points towards the workforce. The latter explains the real position, employers trying to push too few people to do overtime to cover the shortfall, because it’s cheaper for the employer.

The latter is the real reason.

Not really. The railway is now a 7 day a week service. The contracts aren't. Times have changed and the industry hasn't kept up.
These days, many people don't mind working shifts, including Sundays, provided the time off is equal to normal working patterns. The whole thing about Sunday overtime is that train crew would have to sacrifice their day off, which quite rightly many no longer want to do.
But in an industry that is tax payer funded, there's got to be a balance of value for money and a reliable 7 day a week service.

TFW had a huge pay rise to facilitate Sunday working. The service is much more reliable on Sundays but the taxpayer has had to fund the cost. Many other industries don't have that luxury.

Since when have the main lines (apart from when major engineering works are taking place) not been a seven day a week service?

BR ran a seven days a week train service. True there are more trains on Sundays now in some timetables compared to back in the 1980s. But then the number of trains on Sundays has varied over the years. In the heyday of the railways there were Sunday services.

The contracts where Sunday is not part of the working week are what the railway companies want. In other parts of the railway, back in 1992 (yes, under BR) contracts that have Sunday as part of the working week existed. But changing to have Sundays as part of the working week doesn't get you any more working hours out of your employees. As the employees won't agree to an increase in working hours. If staff don't work overtime, you actually get less hours as they will only work to their contract hours. That's less than under the current system where some do volunteer to work Sundays.

And just to be clear, not all the employees are happy working Sunday shifts. They may want to go to church or spend time with their families. A day off in the week is not the same as the children should be in school.

Tax payer funded is irrelevant. BR was tax payer funded. I don't remember BR having problems with Sunday working as bad as this. And nearly all staff prior to 1992 were on contracts where all Sundays were not part of the working week.

The solution is for the DfT and the railway companies to meet with the unions and be prepared to negotiate properly. And yes, it will cost more than the current system.

Having said that, it's the DfT that has caused the current system to fail. Back when the railways were able to run themselves without having to get permission from the DfT, the system worked.

And to all those who want to try to force through a contract change, can I do the same to you? As some who has worked Sundays for over thirty years, why can't all offices, businesses and government organisations be open on Sundays?

 

[MontyP]

The 'other side' of that is that I expect consumers don't want to pay the actual market rate for the railway to run on a Sunday either.

If you want consumers to pay the actual market rate for the railway then there won't be any railways left in this country in a very short period of time!

 

[infobleep]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/reduced-gwr-20241213/ now says 'Most services between Reading and Gatwick Airport have been cancelled.'

I thought Sundays were included for that part of GW; is that incorrect, or is something else causing problems this week?

That is interesting because the only link from the Guildford Live Departure board when I checked on the National Rail Enquiries app (old version 9) went to the GWR disruption notixe on the west of England. I checked in the morning and the afternoon.

I didn't think to search through all the disruption notices to find it, as I just assumed it didn't exist, rather than a mistake was made.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==

I ended up in a cab at 21:00 or so paid for by GWR. The service on the NDL was absolutely terrible yesterday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==


The NDL always is missed in these circumstances from being included in the distruption alerts. I have complained to GWR about the lack of information many times.

And yet they wanted two trains an hour to Gatwick Airport and now even have rhat on a Sunday. So in some repscets the line is closely important to them.

To be fair, in the latest case there seems to have been a disruption notice but it wasn't linked to on the online departure baord for Guildford railway station so I assumed it didn't exist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==

It doesn't mean it's right. In modern times Sunday for many is just another normal weekend day, like Saturday.

Except when they want to go to the supermarket or other shops that are closed earlier than other days.

Not that I'm campaigning for them to be open for longer.

 

[GordonT]

Except when they want to go to the supermarket or other shops that are closed earlier than other days.
Not that I'm campaigning for them to be open for longer.

No such restrictions apply in Scotland, however.

 

[infobleep]

No such restrictions apply in Scotland, however.

Whilst that may be so, GWR doesn't run to Scotland.

 

[godfreycomplex]

, then as I pushed in and inserted my retro paper ticket it was a further "F You" and referred to me as a popular pork sausage and gravy dish by Mr Brains.

Utterly, utterly revolting behaviour

 

[GordonT]

Whilst that may be so, GWR doesn't run to Scotland.

A good reason for migrating north of the border.

 

[father_jack]

Update from GWR.

‌The Company and the Trades Unions have agreed that on Sunday 22 and Sunday 29 December 2024, all grades subject to collective bargaining (including Train Service Delivery and Roster & Resources) will be paid double basic time for the hours worked.

‌This means that your normal hourly rate will be multiplied by the number of hours worked, multiplied by two. For example:

‌£15/hour x 7 hours = £105

‌£105 x 2 = £210 for the shift

‌This applies to all turns worked, commencing on or between 0001 and 2359 hours on 22 and 29 December.

‌For those grades that have Sunday inside the guaranteed week or a contractual Sunday commitment, the ‘additional’ enhancement will be paid on rostered and overtime turns of duty commencing on 22 and 29 December 2024. Please note that the enhanced rate only applies to turns commencing on 22 and 29 December.

 

[Snow1964]

BBC has now run the story, headlining it GWR Sunday cancellations to continue indefinitely

A reduced Sunday service on one of the largest train operators is expected to continue indefinitely, because there are not enough train crew to keep trains running.

Great Western Railway told the BBC that a solution "is not going to happen any time soon."

Up to half the long-distance services between London Paddington, Wales and the West are being cancelled each Sunday.

GWR has suggested that people should consider travelling on different days, because the reduced number of Sunday services are very busy.

What is behind GWR cancellations and delays on Sundays?

Great Western Railway has been struggling with its Sunday service during the winter.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[winks]

Was on a GWR train from reading to Paddington Sunday and it was packed liked sardines. Overheard one passenger mention to her friend that “apparently because the train divers got such a good pay deal and back pay they’ve decided they don’t need to work Sundays”

I take it this is the crux of the current issue, as the deterioration seems recent?

 

[Pat31]

Was on a GWR train from reading to Paddington Sunday and it was packed liked sardines. Overheard one passenger mention to her friend that “apparently because the train divers got such a good pay deal and back pay they’ve decided they don’t need to work Sundays”

I take it this is the crux of the current issue, as the deterioration seems recent?

It's been discussed previously in this thread, but the issue is Sunday is not contracted to be worked by and people don't want to work that much regularly, very little to do with money a lot of the time.

 

[JN114]

Was on a GWR train from reading to Paddington Sunday and it was packed liked sardines. Overheard one passenger mention to her friend that “apparently because the train divers got such a good pay deal and back pay they’ve decided they don’t need to work Sundays”

I take it this is the crux of the current issue, as the deterioration seems recent?

I’m not sure it’s quite so clear cut as that, there’s lots of factors that all really need to be addressed. Some may get better in coming months, others I think there’s some soul searching to do before a resolution gets anywhere near the surface:-

There are lots of crew sick/restricted/released for training/etc

Anecdotally the timetable feels like it requires a level of resource (both crew and stock) that isn’t routinely achievable, on all days of the week

Crew are therefore having to do a fair amount of overtime as it is, before we even think about Sundays

Weekday overtime pays the same or better than Sundays for many

Sundays counts as overtime for almost all staff in some way or another

The more acute lack of resource makes Sundays incredibly challenging to work for the staff that do come in

The shifts are becoming very challenging to work, in terms of workload piled on, disruption, dealing with frustrated customers constantly

Recent pay rises have further dis-incentivised overtime working

Many staff have done incredible amounts of overtime already, upwards of 40 or even 50 days in the calendar year in some cases I’m aware of


So no one factor is to blame. But it also means that further additional payments for Sundays, as seen in the memo shared by father_jack, are unlikely to have a huge impact.

 

[Snow1964]

It's been discussed previously in this thread, but the issue is Sunday is not contracted to be worked by and people don't want to work that much regularly, very little to do with money a lot of the time.

Ultimately if relying on volunteering to work, it's all to do with money.

Most people have their price where they will take the money rather than decline. But for many it is going to be hundreds of pounds for the day. Its also likely to be on a sliding scale, might work first one for say £400, but by say 10th request wanting nearer say £1000 because less income vs work life ratio incentive as more extra worked.

If don't want to pay overtime rates high enough to get staff to volunteer to work, then left with simple choice. Either employ more staff, or fail to run timetable that is agreed with DfT

 

[Bletchleyite]

If don't want to pay overtime rates high enough to get staff to volunteer to work, then left with simple choice. Either employ more staff, or fail to run timetable that is agreed with DfT

And within option 2, there are two options - cancel trains randomly, or do as Northern have done (and Avanti did in the past) and publish a more achievable timetable in advance so people can plan. Even if that means nothing at all, at least people know and can replan their trips or seek alternatives.

 

[winks]

Also, my gut feeling is that on SWR things are going down the pan because management know the contract is ending Spring 2025 and there is no incentive to resolve things. I’ve never heard of a driver shortage impacting the SWML Weymouth- Ldn in 20 odd years but this surely becomes a spiral with more and more delay repay being paid out and consumer loss of confidence. If it’s so low maybe the DfT can only improve things and take the credit next year!

 

[WelshBluebird]

do agree here, but the Unions won't allow it without a substantial payrise

Would you not expect a decent payrise in your job if your contract was going to be changed to make you work days you currently don't? I certainly would expect that! I work mon - fri and if my work wanted me to work Saturday or Sundays they'd have to offer me quite a large pay rise for me to even consider it!

 

[BlueLeanie]

And within option 2, there are two options - cancel trains randomly, or do as Northern have done (and Avanti did in the past) and publish a more achievable timetable in advance so people can plan. Even if that means nothing at all, at least people know and can replan their trips or seek alternatives.

The third option is for TfL to operate "Weekend Crowdbusters" to assist GWR running non-stop Elizabeth line units between Paddington and Reading.

If half the services are cancelled on the GWR there shouldn't be a massive problem pathing a 90mph unit on the fasts.

It would certainly be a relief to Wales & West passengers who are being left on the platforms as the trains are full of experienced and sharp elbowed Reading passengers.

 

[Bigbru]

The third option is for TfL to operate "Weekend Crowdbusters" to assist GWR running non-stop Elizabeth line units between Paddington and Reading.

If half the services are cancelled on the GWR there shouldn't be a massive problem pathing a 90mph unit on the fasts.

It would certainly be a relief to Wales & West passengers who are being left on the platforms as the trains are full of experienced and sharp elbowed Reading passengers.

Except the Elizabeth Line rest day working agreement expires on 28th Dec and currently isn't going to be renewed.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's been discussed previously in this thread, but the issue is Sunday is not contracted to be worked by and people don't want to work that much regularly, very little to do with money a lot of the time.

Clearly money is a part of it. From the above article:

Several drivers have told the BBC that a recent pay deal means they do not need the extra money they earn by working on their rest days.

 

[Class 170101]

The latter is the real reason.


Since when have the main lines (apart from when major engineering works are taking place) not been a seven day a week service?

BR ran a seven days a week train service. True there are more trains on Sundays now in some timetables compared to back in the 1980s. But then the number of trains on Sundays has varied over the years. In the heyday of the railways there were Sunday services.

The contracts where Sunday is not part of the working week are what the railway companies want. In other parts of the railway, back in 1992 (yes, under BR) contracts that have Sunday as part of the working week existed. But changing to have Sundays as part of the working week doesn't get you any more working hours out of your employees. As the employees won't agree to an increase in working hours. If staff don't work overtime, you actually get less hours as they will only work to their contract hours. That's less than under the current system where some do volunteer to work Sundays.

And just to be clear, not all the employees are happy working Sunday shifts. They may want to go to church or spend time with their families. A day off in the week is not the same as the children should be in school.

As I suggested above back in BR days drivers didn't earn big money like they do now, they got various enhancements and so on for certain tasks and also driving anti-social hours, including Sunday working. This made their wage liveable. When the TOCs rolled all these enhancements into one guaranteed salary they should have foreseen that Sunday working would be at risk if that wasn't included. Some did like SWR, and Sundays are inside, some didn't and thus voluntary working on Sundays remain but now with the bigger salaries than BR there is less incentive to work Sundays.

And to all those who want to try to force through a contract change, can I do the same to you? As some who has worked Sundays for over thirty years, why can't all offices, businesses and government organisations be open on Sundays?

Not sure you would want some of them open on a Sunday, they cause enough mess when they are open on the rest of week.

 

[Krokodil]

Clearly money is a part of it. From the above article:

In the conventional sense (which the tabloids will jump to) of "we're striking for better wages", no. It's more along the lines of "railway staff are paid sufficiently to feed a family without working 30 days on the bounce" (which wasn't rare pre-Hidden). Staff deciding (of their own volition) only to work their contracted hours aren't taking industrial action. They're just doing what most people do.

 

[Horizon22]

The third option is for TfL to operate "Weekend Crowdbusters" to assist GWR running non-stop Elizabeth line units between Paddington and Reading.

If half the services are cancelled on the GWR there shouldn't be a massive problem pathing a 90mph unit on the fasts.

What would be the benefit to TfL / Elizabeth line of doing that? Who will pay for it? You will still need extra Elizabeth line drivers paid to come in.

Also it isn't routinely impacting TfL apart from maybe a few extra loadings at stations like Reading, Maidenhead and Slough but likely to be perfectly manageable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2024 ==

BBC has now run the story, headlining it GWR Sunday cancellations to continue indefinitely

What is behind GWR cancellations and delays on Sundays?

Great Western Railway has been struggling with its Sunday service during the winter.

www.bbc.co.uk

GWR just advising people to do what I've been telling people on Sundays across their network for the last 6 months sadly.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Also worth mentioning the very inefficient diagrams that GWR have, which is on all days not just Sundays. Drivers passing on trains and huge gaps between trains is criminal on Sundays when severely short of staff.

 

[irish_rail]

Also worth mentioning the very inefficient diagrams that GWR have, which is on all days not just Sundays. Drivers passing on trains and huge gaps between trains is criminal on Sundays when severely short of staff.

Exactly. It is noticeable at my depot for instance, since HSS had our Sunday London work removed in favour of shuttling to and from Laira depot, the Sunday service has fallen apart. Its time GWR stopped acting ideologically and put the work where the drivers with route knowledge are.
For example, give Plymouth HSS mainly out and back London trains on a Sunday, say 8 turns, that would already be 8 London up and back trains covered driver wise all the way from Plymouth to London and back. Instead we see trains from the westcountry to London rostered for 3 different drivers then they wonder why the service falls apart.

 

[Harpo]

Also worth mentioning the very inefficient diagrams that GWR have, which is on all days not just Sundays. Drivers passing on trains and huge gaps between trains is criminal on Sundays when severely short of staff.

Depends why they’re on the cushions. If you’ve got peaky unbalanced peak flows and/or sets coming in/out of service during the day etc. you’ll get passing.

 

[Kite159]

Remember, railway staff work to live, not live to work. They want their time off to enjoy life.

The only solution is to employ more staff and bring Sundays inside the working week, not classed as overtime. Even though that will take years to do.

Otherwise it's going to get ugly with more & more cash getting thrown around to encourage staff to come in on their days off to work, especially with the taxman taking their share of any payments.

 

[irish_rail]

Remember, railway staff work to live, not live to work. They want their time off to enjoy life.

The only solution is to employ more staff and bring Sundays inside the working week, not classed as overtime. Even though that will take years to do.

Otherwise it's going to get ugly with more & more cash getting thrown around to encourage staff to come in on their days off to work, especially with the taxman taking their share of any payments.

I would argue, by tightening up the diagrams (monday to friday), ie go back to predominantly one driver drives to London out and back, you would create enough traincrew efficiencies to allow Sundays into the working week without having to employ too many additional drivers. The fact Plymouth (for example) has nearly twice the number of drivers it had 10 years ago, yet hardly any extra work speaks volumes about driver utilisation. The limited route knowledge concept where every service requires 3 or 4 different drivers is a failure, and privately the operator has admitted that.
By undoing this, bring us back to a Plymouth or a Swansea driver drives to London and back, and you'd save a good deal of traincrew who could be used to bring Sundays into the working week.

 

[Goldfish62]

Remember, railway staff work to live, not live to work. They want their time off to enjoy life.

The only solution is to employ more staff and bring Sundays inside the working week, not classed as overtime. Even though that will take years to do.

Otherwise it's going to get ugly with more & more cash getting thrown around to encourage staff to come in on their days off to work, especially with the taxman taking their share of any payments.

Or (and I'm not suggesting this is a good idea at all) permanently slash Sunday services, roster maximum length trains where possible using the surplus stock from the cuts and remove the cheapest Advance fares on Sundays to deter travel.

 

[Snow1964]

Or (and I'm not suggesting this is a good idea at all) permanently slash Sunday services, roster maximum length trains where possible using the surplus stock from the cuts and remove the cheapest Advance fares on Sundays to deter travel.

The self destruct, and cause the business shrink and go bankrupt approach by discouraging customers.
Didn't Gerald Ratner famously do something similar (and it killed Ratners)

To some extent railway has it easy as they have year round demand, so can have fairly constant staffing levels. In my university days had a summer job at a holiday park, they needed just few staff all year, but nearer 40 each summer peak season. Much harder to manage than fairly even demand 7 days a week.

 

[Harpo]

In my university days had a summer job at a holiday park, they needed just few staff all year, but nearer 40 each summer peak season. Much harder to manage than fairly even demand 7 days a week.

Gone are the days when the railway employed students as firemen in the summer. (That is genuine.)

Uneven demand is manageable if you can access additional labour that becomes fully productive very quickly. But politicians have even made that more difficult too!

For the railways though, it’s worth asking how this clusterduck has occurred and reflecting on how it wasn’t anywhere near this bad before DfT micromanagement.