GWR Sunday Cancellations - crew availability - why?

[infobleep]

Rather risky shelling out money in the hope of cancellations. What if the service operates? You are left with tickets that are of no use and have to purchase new ones for Monday travel.

Buy them on the Sunday. Preferably online.

One advantage of taking the car when shopping is the ability to head back to said car to drop off purchases before returning to the shops/food. Rather than having to carry things around with you

One disadvantage to this is the cost of owning a car. I'd rather take my chances.

1850 from Reading to Gatwick Airport has done all (GWR) stations tonight. First one from Reading since 1620. Just 2305 to come, if it runs.

I'm glad to hear it because when I checked earlier I didn't see any saying this and when I checked a previous week, forget which, but after the week they did male regular additional stops on all the fasts, I didn't noticed it either.

That isn't to say they didn't add them in at the last minute.

I see it was allowed to run to Gatwick Airport 24 minutes late, which reflects the Sunday when they all were allowed to do this, rather than selected ones.

They also allowed the 16:20 to stop at additional stations but their isn't a note to explain this, unlike on the 18:20.

Interstingly the 12:20 was delayed due to late train crew and it was 24 minutes late into Redhill where it terminated. The train before and after it were cancelled. No idea why that one couldn't go to Gatwick Airport. Perhaps some of the staff would have been over hours if they had.

Worth noting the general desruption notice on National Rail Enquiries doesn't mention the North Downs Line so, despite all the cancellations, maybe it isn't considered bad enough to warrant such a notice.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm glad to hear it because when I checked earlier I didn't see any saying this and when I checked a previous week, forget which, but after the week they did male regular additional stops on all the fasts, I didn't noticed it either.

Extra stops not announced on the 1850 until departure from Guildford. It was already a stopper up to there.

 

[nanstallon]

Drivers are so highly paid that they don't need the money (which will be taxed at higher rate) for working on Sundays. Unless Sundays are part of the contractual week, there is now little point in advertising a Sunday service.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Drivers are so highly paid that they don't need the money (which will be taxed at higher rate) for working on Sundays. Unless Sundays are part of the contractual week, there is now little point in advertising a Sunday service.

That's happening across many public sector areas though.

My niece moved north of the border last year. It was a bit of a shocker for her to find that just doing an extra 12 nightshifts *a year* as a Band 5 nurse would make her a higher rate tax payer. So, shift 13 and she loses more than half her salary to tax and NI.

 

[nanstallon]

That's happening across many public sector areas though.

My niece moved north of the border last year. It was a bit of a shocker for her to find that just doing an extra 12 nightshifts *a year* as a Band 5 nurse would make her a higher rate tax payer. So, shift 13 and she loses more than half her salary to tax and NI.

To be fair, the higher rate tax only applies to the 'excess' over and above the threshold of standard to higher rate.

 

[Sealink]

South Western Railway is also showing cancellations due to crew shortages.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2024 ==

Ths is actually really bad... This is why I'm paying money for an overnight hotel in London as I don't trust SWR to get to there the same day for a 12.00 train.

How has it come to this?

 

[181]

Worth noting the general desruption notice on National Rail Enquiries doesn't mention the North Downs Line so, despite all the cancellations, maybe it isn't considered bad enough to warrant such a notice.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/reduced-gwr-20241213/ now says 'Most services between Reading and Gatwick Airport have been cancelled.'

Unless Sundays are part of the contractual week, there is now little point in advertising a Sunday service.

I thought Sundays were included for that part of GW; is that incorrect, or is something else causing problems this week?

 

[cholsey-choose]

That's happening across many public sector areas though.

My niece moved north of the border last year. It was a bit of a shocker for her to find that just doing an extra 12 nightshifts *a year* as a Band 5 nurse would make her a higher rate tax payer. So, shift 13 and she loses more than half her salary to tax and NI.

Is this a quirk of Scotland where a higher rate tax kicks in before the national insurance payments drop? My understanding is that in England the point where you become a higher-rate tax payer your NI contributions drop quite substantially.

 

[MasterPhillips]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/reduced-gwr-20241213/ now says 'Most services between Reading and Gatwick Airport have been cancelled.'

I thought Sundays were included for that part of GW; is that incorrect, or is something else causing problems this week?

I believe Reading based drivers have “committed” Sundays meaning they have to work it unless they can find cover, however Reading Guards do not hence the shortage of train crew.

 

[Pat31]

Can’t help but feel this is a totally unsustainable situation of late. Sundays were bad before but have been categorically terrible in the past few weeks. General consensus is that this is soley a product of drivers choosing not to work sundays as the overtime would take them into a higher tax bracket? How easily can contracts be rewritten?

I struggle to see how even the unions can defend the current situation?

 

[dk1]

Can’t help but feel this is a totally unsustainable situation of late. Sundays were bad before but have been categorically terrible in the past few weeks. General consensus is that this is soley a product of drivers choosing not to work sundays as the overtime would take them into a higher tax bracket? How easily can contracts be rewritten?

I struggle to see how even the unions can defend the current situation?

Contracts don't get rewritten unless an enormous carrot is offered.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Surely the easiest solution is for new starters to have Sundays included in the working week or Committed, with existing staff staying as it is.

 

[dk1]

Surely the easiest solution is for new starters to have Sundays included in the working week or Committed, with existing staff staying as it is.

As has been stated so many times before, there is nothing easy about that and we are talking decades before it might take full effect.

 

[Harpo]

I struggle to see how even the unions can defend the current situation?

What’s it got to do with unions?

Nobody is striking. Nobody is taking industrial action. Everyone is compliant with their conditions of employment.

It’s Daily Mail land to be questioning unions over an issue that the TOC (okay, the DfT) holds all the cards on.

 

[MasterPhillips]

As has been stated so many times before, there is nothing easy about that and we are talking decades before it might take full effect.

Sure, but the current situation just isn’t acceptable. what is your solution that is easier, and more acceptable to existing staff and the unions?

 

[dk1]

Sure, but the current situation just isn’t acceptable. what is your solution that is easier, and more acceptable to existing staff and the unions?

There isn't one.

 

[winks]

South Western Railway is also showing cancellations due to crew shortages.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2024 ==

Ths is actually really bad... This is why I'm paying money for an overnight hotel in London as I don't trust SWR to get to there the same day for a 12.00 train.

How has it come to this?

Yeah I agree. SWR has tanked performance wise over the last few weeks. That with GWR being a debacle it feels like the railway is barely holding things together at the minute.

 

[Krokodil]

Funnily enough, I spend a good deal of time in the North west. My observations are generally over provision of carriages compared with numbers actually travelling. Especially when compared with much of GWR where we are putting up with 5 car IETs on many intercity services. There may be over provision of carriages on commuter routes into London at certain times of the day, but do not tar all of the south with the same brush. Indeed the north west does considerably better than the south west when it comes to funding and train service provision!

You aren't travelling between Manchester and Chester then. TfW's 2 car 197s would be rammed enough as it is without having to mop up everyone Northern has forgotten about too.

 

[irish_rail]

Can’t help but feel this is a totally unsustainable situation of late. Sundays were bad before but have been categorically terrible in the past few weeks. General consensus is that this is soley a product of drivers choosing not to work sundays as the overtime would take them into a higher tax bracket? How easily can contracts be rewritten?

I struggle to see how even the unions can defend the current situation?

From the horses mouth (a driver) it really is nothing to do with tax brackets for the majority of us. Most simply do not want to work 6 days a week, and want a work life balance. Time with family is more important to many of us than pounds and pence. There is only one solution. Put Sundays into the working week, so it is no longer overtime. The vast majority of drivers would be accepting of this compromise. Plenty of other TOCs are seen as worthy of it, so why not GWR? Talking about tax brackets is just distracting from the real issues.

 

[Krokodil]

To be fair, the higher rate tax only applies to the 'excess' over and above the threshold of standard to higher rate.

Yes, but if one rest day earns £190 in take home (I'm guesstimating the wages of the nurse on nights for this), but a second only earns £135 then one may well say "I'm not giving up another day off for £135, I'll spend time with my family instead". The fact that one shift feels worth less than the previous may influence your decision, even if the it would still be a good wage on its own.

Is this a quirk of Scotland where a higher rate tax kicks in before the national insurance payments drop? My understanding is that in England the point where you become a higher-rate tax payer your NI contributions drop quite substantially.

There is a 52% marginal rate for earnings over £43.7k (which is a respectable salary, but far from megabucks), yes. His niece is probably also liable for student loan repayments which would bring it up to a marginal rate of 61%.

Sure, but the current situation just isn’t acceptable. what is your solution that is easier, and more acceptable to existing staff and the unions?

Do what TfW did. Their rolling stock might be lacking but "shortage of traincrew" cancellations are next to non-existent. It's an expensive solution though.

 

[Caaardiff]

As has been stated so many times before, there is nothing easy about that and we are talking decades before it might take full effect.

The only thing making it not easy is the unions.
The suggestion of any new contracts having Sundays should be a given, as well as current staff having the option to voluntarily change. It may suit some people to have Sundays in their week while maintaining their normal work pattern.
No-one is losing out then.

From the general public view, Drivers got a decent payrise recently but TOCs seemed to have missed a trick in adding conditions to those payrises to help in some way with overtime coverage. It's not done any favours in the perception of how the general public sees it, vs how people actually working on the railway sees it as a well deserved rise.

 

[Pat31]

What’s it got to do with unions?

Nobody is striking. Nobody is taking industrial action. Everyone is compliant with their conditions of employment.

It’s Daily Mail land to be questioning unions over an issue that the TOC (okay, the DfT) holds all the cards on.

I mentioned unions because if working practices/conditions/contractual arrangements were to change then surely the unions would review them before collectively agreeing.

 

[dk1]

I mentioned unions because if working practices/conditions/contractual arrangements were to change then surely the unions would review them before collectively agreeing.

They wouldnt even bother reviewing them unless there was something in it for their members. Why would they accept anything inferior to the current agreements without reward?

 

[Pat31]

From the horses mouth (a driver) it really is nothing to do with tax brackets for the majority of us. Most simply do not want to work 6 days a week, and want a work life balance. Time with family is more important to many of us than pounds and pence. There is only one solution. Put Sundays into the working week, so it is no longer overtime. The vast majority of drivers would be accepting of this compromise. Plenty of other TOCs are seen as worthy of it, so why not GWR? Talking about tax brackets is just distracting from the real issues.

I see, I totally agree with you tbh. The only reason I put that statement as a question was that that’s all i’d read up until now, everyone had mentioned that it was money motivated. But the work life balance reason makes more sense in my mind.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==

They wouldnt even bother reviewing them unless there was something in it for their members. Why would they accept anything inferior to the current agreements without reward?

Well that’s my point in the first place, why would the unions agree to a contractual change?

Unless it was done voluntarily to include Sundays in the working week, there is no solution to this?

And what we're effectively saying is that a crucial public service doesn’t exist on a Sunday for gwr because of some archaic working practice?

 

[Harpo]

And what we're effectively saying is that a crucial public service doesn’t exist on a Sunday for gwr because of some archaic working practice?

‘Archaic working practice’ might be better replaced by ‘exploitative employment practice’.

The first, points towards the workforce. The latter explains the real position, employers trying to push too few people to do overtime to cover the shortfall, because it’s cheaper for the employer.

 

[YouLostAStar]

Unless the manager concerned has special access to the Transport Secretary it's just tittle tattle. The 2028 date is the final expiry date. The whole point of the recently passed act was to be able to terminate contracts at any time between the core expiry date and the final expiry date.

Apart from SWR, C2C and GA no other terminations have been public, so all other dates are just gossip. The last contract to reach the core expiry date is Cross Country in October 2027.

Where have you seen that the Transport Secretary has said 2026? I've been trying to read everything I can about the recently passed act but there doesn't seem to be anything about set in stone dates and a vague plan within 3 years

 

[Class 317]

1850 from Reading to Gatwick Airport has done all (GWR) stations tonight. First one from Reading since 1620. Just 2305 to come, if it runs.

I ended up in a cab at 21:00 or so paid for by GWR. The service on the NDL was absolutely terrible yesterday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==

Buy them on the Sunday. Preferably online.

One disadvantage to this is the cost of owning a car. I'd rather take my chances.

I'm glad to hear it because when I checked earlier I didn't see any saying this and when I checked a previous week, forget which, but after the week they did male regular additional stops on all the fasts, I didn't noticed it either.

That isn't to say they didn't add them in at the last minute.

I see it was allowed to run to Gatwick Airport 24 minutes late, which reflects the Sunday when they all were allowed to do this, rather than selected ones.

They also allowed the 16:20 to stop at additional stations but their isn't a note to explain this, unlike on the 18:20.

Interstingly the 12:20 was delayed due to late train crew and it was 24 minutes late into Redhill where it terminated. The train before and after it were cancelled. No idea why that one couldn't go to Gatwick Airport. Perhaps some of the staff would have been over hours if they had.

Worth noting the general desruption notice on National Rail Enquiries doesn't mention the North Downs Line so, despite all the cancellations, maybe it isn't considered bad enough to warrant such a notice.

The NDL always is missed in these circumstances from being included in the distruption alerts. I have complained to GWR about the lack of information many times.

 

[crablab]

The latter explains the real position, employers trying to push too few people to do overtime to cover the shortfall, because it’s cheaper for the employer.

I'm probably missing something, but if all the required drivers necessary to cover Sunday working were available, surely they'd all be on the same contract which does not require them to work Sunday?
Or would there be enough drivers for them to have committed Sundays on the rota?

 

[officewalla]

I believe Reading based drivers have “committed” Sundays meaning they have to work it unless they can find cover, however Reading Guards do not hence the shortage of train crew.

Depends upon the contract. I have committed Sundays but often find services cancelled due to crew shortages......it is not usually the driver who has gone AWOL.

 

[cholsey-choose]

I'm probably missing something, but if all the required drivers necessary to cover Sunday working were available, surely they'd all be on the same contract which does not require them to work Sunday?
Or would there be enough drivers for them to have committed Sundays on the rota?

At least how it was with the NHS consultants drama a few years ago, relying on overtime to provide core services was a way of getting away with fewer staff.