GWR stock shortage: potential solutions

[Doctor Fegg]

Ok. I’m guessing at this point you don’t actually know what Soho Farmhouse is. May I commend this thing called “Google” to you?

 

[Dan G]

Not sure what the relevance of a bunch of posh holiday homes is to this discussion

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2023 ==

To zoom out for a moment: on which lines/between which station pairs should single 5-car IETs run?

Would still like to know the answer to this (or where I can find it out)

 

[Master29]

Ok. I’m guessing at this point you don’t actually know what Soho Farmhouse is. May I commend this thing called “Google” to you?

I do know incidentally but not before it was so curtly pointed out by yourself. I bow to such superior knowledge. Feels great doesn't it.

 

[Clarence Yard]

To bring the discussion back into the realms of reality, the North Cots had a real problem back in 2017. The growth was such that certain non peak trains towards London were starting to load heavy for a 5 car, 220-250 punters when leaving Moreton-in-Marsh wasn’t uncommon for a non-seasonal load at those particular times.

When you factor in that you can get a set of stock to run two return journeys in for a Pad-Great Malvern for every Pad-Penzance return journey and your pence per mile per journey take is much greater on the North Cots than it is on the route to the South West and you can see why the stock was deployed as it was and, before anyone starts, the North Cots is still busy and lucrative today - it really isn’t a totally five car railway from Oxford westwards, even in the off peak.

By now, if we hadn’t had COVID, we anticipated that the 80x 5 car fleet would require partial lengthening and that hasn’t happened, yet. But leisure travel travel has boomed everywhere on the GWR network and the stock isn’t there to cope. But it’s not a deliberate ploy by anyone to run any line down, it’s more to do with trying to manage the stock in a situation where both existing resources and money for extra is tight.

 

[jimm]

And yet it’s still possible to get a cheap flight last minute to many places in Europe. It would need to be kept in check carefully but it’s not a blanket it wouldn’t work.

It needs to be carefully kept in check, but demand based pricing can be a good thing, keeping down demand for certain services. In a very basic version every train starts off relatively cheap, and as it gets towards no seats left it becomes expensive, at or slightly above the current anytime rate. This makes people look at other trains which are cheaper. I’m only suggesting this for long distance tickets. Anytime fares are already a very very crude and basic form of demand based pricing

as for the suggestions of it making the taxpayer pay more, I’m not suggesting cheaper overall fares, but fares actually dynamically changing based on demand. The government has enough data to create a system that is neutral for their income, and any system which is neutral for them is also neutral for consumers.

Thanks, I know how demand-based pricing works and the reality is it can get seriously expensive if you need to travel somewhere at short notice and/or at a time of the day when there are precious few seats left on that flight. Peak fare periods on the railway are already a crude form of demand-based pricing - and there are places where the Anytime fare is the only fare offered, so the DfT won't be wanting lots of bargain trips in such areas to suddenly be available.

Lots of passengers, whether using a train or a plane, can't 'look at other times' to travel. Which is why I said be careful what you wish for.

OK, so you want to bring up Hanborough. Fine. A whole 8 minutes from Oxford. And yes, I have experienced overcrowding from Hanborough into Oxford and vice versa, but needless to say, once west of Hanborough, there is rarely standees. And if there are any, there certainly aren't after another 10 minutes or so when Charlbury is passed. So standees for 8 minutes, as inevitably at Oxford plenty get off. The issue , as others have pointed out is getting Oxford electrified to give it decent long EMUs to London, with hourly 5 car IETs on into the Cotswolds. And yes , that may still mean Hanborough passengers standing for 8 minutes (within the Dfts 20 minute standee parameters).

How remarkable that you should choose that example... As ever ignoring the fact that lots of Cotswold Line passengers in both directions stay on board* when the trains get to Oxford, so if they are on an overcrowded train between London and Oxford and are going forward, or travelling in the other direction, that they will be on those trains a lot longer than eight minutes. Put a five-car set on the wrong service at the wrong time of the day and the overcrowding can and does begin and end a lot further west than Hanborough.

*Have you already forgotten, just six months later, what Clarence Yard posted about revenue generated by various flows between stations across the GWR network and London? Followed up by the post above.

Here's a reminder for you and a catch-up for anyone who missed it at the time, as in the real world, we don't all get off and on at Oxford (click to open the link and ignore the snipped text that appears in the quote box)

What (if anything) was wrong with the IEP procurement?

1676802393 Without addressing every one of your points, my argument is fairly simple. Passenger on the wofe route spends about 3 hours on average on the train. On the cotswold thats more like an hour or so. So if someone is going to stand, it should be the cotswold commuter, and not the long...

www.railforums.co.uk

But they get very busy in some parts of GWR land, particularly in Devon and Cornwall, and also Somerset coast, parts of Wessex and western Cotswolds.

Perhaps not morning peak, but mid morning through to early evening, in some of these areas in August, the peak is nearer 10:30-noon

While in the vicinity of one of our little wayside stations in mid-morning on Thursday when a train towards London was due in from Worcester, I popped on to the platform and counted 60 people waiting to board a five-car set - that was already two-thirds full and with several more stops to make before reaching Oxford.

Also didn't see this, but as I mentioned as soon as we got to stations where the Off-Peak restriction allowed people to board, it got busier, and I was still near the station for the first Off Peak train from London, which arrived standing, that wasn't even Super-Off Peak. Not to mention my train home was also standing.

I've been on peak trains in August from Hereford or Worcester towards London that have had fewer than 100 people on board approaching Oxford (going back to long before the Covid pandemic) - but get to September and you can see why a 9-car is allocated.

OK so whether or not you and I agree that those seven 9 car units were for various parts of the network you say I`m pretty sure I remember them not being for the Penzance route as originally 9 car trains were never intended to go there. I think we can both agree that loadings haven't worked out very well in both cases and clearly not on the Hereford line. We can blame covid for various issues but there was always going to come a time when things picked up again, especially on lines linked to leisure travel. Clarence yard is always insightful in how the loadings and distribution of stock works but I still believe ( my opinion by the way) GWR are a service and should not just be looking just at costs regarding leisure travel in these areas even if they are having to work around a DfT mandate. This clearly doesn't bode well.

You can believe what you like - but if those seven extra 9-cars had been allocated purely to the Oxford/Cotswold corridor then we would have had near wall-to-wall 9-car operation all day, all week. For some mysterious reason we didn't - perhaps because they were going to be doing several other things on top of Cotswold Line peak runs, like replacing 2x5s on other routes to allow those 5-cars to replace 387s on Oxford terminators, as the wires stopped at Didcot, and London-Bedwyn runs (and now West County inter-regional work).

I've said over and over that only 30% of Cotswold Line services west of Oxford were ever allocated a 9-car set in the December 2019 timetable plan, almost all focused in the busiest periods on weekdays and at weekends, and that figure is down now to 20%. Fact.

I have no issue with adjustments being made to peak services in the light of current demand hereabouts - but I do have an issue with people pretending on this forum that there are no overcrowded services on the Cotswold Line (or it's just for eight minutes...), or that there are no services that have loadings where a 9-car IET is the appropriate size of train to use, and that a train leaving Hereford in mid-afternoon that reaches Oxford at 5.30pm on its way to Reading and London does not need a 9-car train. All claims that we have been treated to endlessly for years now - even now with lots of 9-cars running to the West Country, all the way to Penzance.

And if peak loadings rebound here and elsewhere - some businesses are now pressing staff to turn up to the office full-time again, or at least appear for more days of the week, which will inevitably show up in peak loadings - then GWR will, whether off its own bat or under orders from DfT/Treasury - look again at what sets go where and when.

This is not an accurate comparison. Many seaside town have up to 80% holiday home ownership, not to mention other beauty spots. Cotswold district council doesn't cover nearly so large an area as Cornwall Council.

Parts of the Cotswolds are in other council areas, notably West Oxfordshire (where Hanborough, Charlbury and Kingham stations are located) Stroud, Tewkesbury and the north of Wiltshire. So there are one or two more second homes to add in those places.

Absolutely. Again conveniently forgotten. I foolishly drove from Cornwall to Bristol yesterday and wish I hadn't. Took over 5 hours to get back and 2 to get as far as Weston Super Mare from Bristol. The point is that I doubt the Cotswolds area ever get's that bad. More people to the west.? I think so?

Ah yes, it's open roads all the way up here... well except for the Friday afternoon (year-round, holiday season or not) and Saturday tailbacks through towns on the A429 Fosse Way (or just down the hill on the Evesham A46 bypass). If anyone is thinking about driving through at those times, I strongly recommend finding an alternative route.

 

[Benjwri]

Thanks, I know how demand-based pricing works and the reality is it can get seriously expensive if you need to travel somewhere at short notice and/or at a time of the day when there are precious few seats left on that flight. Peak fare periods on the railway are already a crude form of demand-based pricing - and there are places where the Anytime fare is the only fare offered, so the DfT won't be wanting lots of bargain trips in such areas to suddenly be available.

Lots of passengers, whether using a train or a plane, can't 'look at other times' to travel. Which is why I said be careful what you wish for.

I am also well aware of the advantages of disadvantages. I would add that many airlines now drop prices very close to flights to sell off excess seats. I realise that some people can’t predict travel but when I have to do that I just accept that is the cost of it. It’s not ideal but we don’t live in some utopia where all trains can be cheap. When we have such capacity issues is it not best to encourage people onto these trains?

I've been on peak trains in August from Hereford or Worcester towards London that have had fewer than 100 people on board approaching Oxford (going back to long before the Covid pandemic) - but get to September and you can see why a 9-car is allocated.

Im a bit confused about the relevance of this to my post. I was talking about how peak trains are so much quieter than off peak within one day, and as they transition to off peak, because of varying restriction, the train becomes much busier through its journey. I see not reason the Cotswold line was bought into this at all.

 

[irish_rail]

Thanks, I know how demand-based pricing works and the reality is it can get seriously expensive if you need to travel somewhere at short notice and/or at a time of the day when there are precious few seats left on that flight. Peak fare periods on the railway are already a crude form of demand-based pricing - and there are places where the Anytime fare is the only fare offered, so the DfT won't be wanting lots of bargain trips in such areas to suddenly be available.

Lots of passengers, whether using a train or a plane, can't 'look at other times' to travel. Which is why I said be careful what you wish for.


How remarkable that you should choose that example... As ever ignoring the fact that lots of Cotswold Line passengers in both directions stay on board* when the trains get to Oxford, so if they are on an overcrowded train between London and Oxford and are going forward, or travelling in the other direction, that they will be on those trains a lot longer than eight minutes. Put a five-car set on the wrong service at the wrong time of the day and the overcrowding can and does begin and end a lot further west than Hanborough.

*Have you already forgotten, just six months later, what Clarence Yard posted about revenue generated by various flows between stations across the GWR network and London? Followed up by the post above.

Here's a reminder for you and a catch-up for anyone who missed it at the time, as in the real world, we don't all get off and on at Oxford (click to open the link and ignore the snipped text that appears in the quote box)

What (if anything) was wrong with the IEP procurement?

1676802393 Without addressing every one of your points, my argument is fairly simple. Passenger on the wofe route spends about 3 hours on average on the train. On the cotswold thats more like an hour or so. So if someone is going to stand, it should be the cotswold commuter, and not the long...

www.railforums.co.uk

While in the vicinity of one of our little wayside stations in mid-morning on Thursday when a train towards London was due in from Worcester, I popped on to the platform and counted 60 people waiting to board a five-car set - that was already two-thirds full and with several more stops to make before reaching Oxford.


I've been on peak trains in August from Hereford or Worcester towards London that have had fewer than 100 people on board approaching Oxford (going back to long before the Covid pandemic) - but get to September and you can see why a 9-car is allocated.


You can believe what you like - but if those seven extra 9-cars had been allocated purely to the Oxford/Cotswold corridor then we would have had near wall-to-wall 9-car operation all day, all week. For some mysterious reason we didn't - perhaps because they were going to be doing several other things on top of Cotswold Line peak runs, like replacing 2x5s on other routes to allow those 5-cars to replace 387s on Oxford terminators, as the wires stopped at Didcot, and London-Bedwyn runs (and now West County inter-regional work).

I've said over and over that only 30% of Cotswold Line services west of Oxford were ever allocated a 9-car set in the December 2019 timetable plan, almost all focused in the busiest periods on weekdays and at weekends, and that figure is down now to 20%. Fact.

I have no issue with adjustments being made to peak services in the light of current demand hereabouts - but I do have an issue with people pretending on this forum that there are no overcrowded services on the Cotswold Line (or it's just for eight minutes...), or that there are no services that have loadings where a 9-car IET is the appropriate size of train to use, and that a train leaving Hereford in mid-afternoon that reaches Oxford at 5.30pm on its way to Reading and London does not need a 9-car train. All claims that we have been treated to endlessly for years now - even now with lots of 9-cars running to the West Country, all the way to Penzance.

And if peak loadings rebound here and elsewhere - some businesses are now pressing staff to turn up to the office full-time again, or at least appear for more days of the week, which will inevitably show up in peak loadings - then GWR will, whether off its own bat or under orders from DfT/Treasury - look again at what sets go where and when.


Parts of the Cotswolds are in other council areas, notably West Oxfordshire (where Hanborough, Charlbury and Kingham stations are located) Stroud, Tewkesbury and the north of Wiltshire. So there are one or two more second homes to add in those places.


Ah yes, it's open roads all the way up here... well except for the Friday afternoon (year-round, holiday season or not) and Saturday tailbacks through towns on the A429 Fosse Way (or just down the hill on the Evesham A46 bypass). If anyone is thinking about driving through at those times, I strongly recommend finding an alternative route.

Well with Oxford getting additional platforms going forward then surely there will be scope for some 10 car sets running between London and Oxford with 5 going forward onto the Cotswold. If it was good enough for Plymouth until 2019 then its good enough for Oxford, as, I stand by the fact the majority of travel is between Oxford and London. A 5 car will almost always cope beyond Oxford provided we accept that standees for 20 minutes or less at times is acceptable. I have never experienced standing beyond Charlbury on the down direction so its fair to say it is only that Oxford to Charlbury bit that MAY incur some standees on a couple of peak time trains. Hardly the end of the world.

Frankly we shouldn't even be having this debate. In a sensible world, Avanti would keep their Voyagers, and their future 80x diverted to GWR instead.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Frankly we shouldn't even be having this debate. In a sensible world, Avanti would keep their Voyagers, and their future 80x diverted to GWR instead.

Future 80x will likely not be compatible with existing GWR/LNER there’s quite a lot different being specified on the Avanti and East Mids ones. Also neither have ATP built into that design.

The Avanti ones are being built to massively reduce the under the wires diesel running.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2023 ==

forward then surely there will be scope for some 10 car sets running between London and Oxford with 5 going forward onto the Cotswold. If it was good enough for Plymouth until 2019 then its good enough for Oxford, as, I stand by the fact the majority of travel is between Oxford and London. A 5 car will almost always cope beyond Oxford provided we accept that standees for 20 minutes or less at times is acceptable. I have never experienced standing beyond Charlbury on the down direction so its fair to say it is only that Oxford to Charlbury bit that MAY incur some standees on a couple of peak time trains. Hardly the end of the world.

It is now generally only the peak trains to the Cotswolds that have more than 5 coaches and they need it behind Oxford at those times.

Why do you need to move sets from the Cotswolds to the West of England route? Are all the West of England fasts not booked double sets or 9 cars?

I know there are day to day issues with delivery of those formations but having more stock just gives more units for Hitachi to struggle with!

 

[irish_rail]

Why do you need to move sets from the Cotswolds to the West of England route? Are all the West of England fasts not booked double sets or 9 cars?

I know there are day to day issues with delivery of those formations but having more stock just gives more units for Hitachi to struggle with!

Because there are way too many costly and wasteful 10 sets now diagrammed on WofE since December 2022. These are very easy to short form , unlike a 9 car.

I was reading an old article from a railway magazine in the 1990s that declared the WofE route one of intercitys most profitable. Going on what Clarence Yard posts, this is apparently no longer the case, and you have to wander what has gone wrong between 1993 (the date of the article) and now, where, apparently the cotswold line generates more profit than the WofE. My personal opinion is that the staffing costs of running 10 car IETs (as opposed to a single 9 car train) is one big factor in driving up costs and thus driving down profits. On the cotswold, the trains are either 5 or 9 car so are less wasteful in terms of use of resources.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Because there are way too many costly and wasteful 10 sets now diagrammed on WofE since December 2022. These are very easy to short form , unlike a 9 car.

As has been explained many times there was no change to the diagrammed formation of West of England services in December 2022, the only Pad to WofE fast services booked 10 cars remains the 09.04, 13.04, 17.04 and 21.04 all the others (the vast majority) are booked 9 cars.

As you know yourself there have been issues with what turns up on the day and the issues with the DSD.

What is happening as you know is 10 cars booked on other routes end up being split with 5 v 10 on that service and a 5 car to recover a WofE service which proves you can short form a 9 car!

 

[irish_rail]

As has been explained many times there was no change to the diagrammed formation of West of England services in December 2022, the only Pad to WofE fast services booked 10 cars remains the 09.04, 13.04, 17.04 and 21.04 all the others (the vast majority) are booked 9 cars.

As you know yourself there have been issues with what turns up on the day and the issues with the DSD.

What is happening as you know is 10 cars booked on other routes end up being split with 5 v 10 on that service and a 5 car to recover a WofE service which proves you can short form a 9 car!

In reality more 10 cars turn up than just those 4 services. And even so, it still represents a quarter of services (and this is ignoring the Padd to Exeter and Plymouth stoppers which tend now to be 10 or 5 car) . There should be no 10 car workings full stop (except perhaps on the Padd to Carmarthen route where it is impossible to justify a full length train throughout). But , being pragmatic, we are where we are. With hindsight they never would have ordered so many daft short sets. If only the mistakes made by virgin c2002 had been learnt from, but we need to make do with what we have I suppose!

Re the DSD issues, that seems to be pretty much ignored now, with plenty of modified sets now working to the south west, as apparently it is better than a cancellation. Not for the driver who has to suffer the new style DSD pedal for 3 and a half hours it isn't!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2023 ==

I do also worry that when commuting increases closer to London, we will see a further reduction in 9 car sets on WofE, which will further damage the profitability of the route in favour of the short distance commuter.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

P

In reality more 10 cars turn up than just those 4 services. And even so, it still represents a quarter of services (and this is ignoring the Padd to Exeter and Plymouth stoppers which tend now to be 10 or 5 car) . There should be no 10 car workings full stop (except perhaps on the Padd to Carmarthen route where it is impossible to justify a full length train throughout). But , being pragmatic, we are where we are. With hindsight they never would have ordered so many daft short sets. If only the mistakes made by virgin c2002 had been learnt from, but we need to make do with what we have I suppose!

Which goes against your point that 9 cars can’t be short formed. Yes that is technically true but as you’ve just explained 5 and 10 cars can and do show up despite not being booked on these services. The point stands those are the only WofE trains booked for 10 cars.

As for Carmarthen it’s also not possible to run more 9 or 10 cars through due to the signal locations at Carmarthen.

 

[irish_rail]

P


Which goes against your point that 9 cars can’t be short formed. Yes that is technically true but as you’ve just explained 5 and 10 cars can and do show up despite not being booked on these services. The point stands those are the only WofE trains booked for 10 cars.

As for Carmarthen it’s also not possible to run more 9 or 10 cars through due to the signal locations at Carmarthen.

So answer me this. Do you genuinely think that running a 10 car train (2 x 5 car sets) is better than running a 9 car train?
I get we have to make do with what we have, but surely we need to be demanding better from those controlling the purse strings. Its all very well being pragmatic, but sometimes you need to challenge what is going on in order for things to improve.

 

[Benjwri]

as apparently it is better than a cancellation. Not for the driver who has to suffer the new style DSD pedal for 3 and a half hours it isn't!

It’s not ideal, but for this entire thread you’ve been telling us how overcrowded the WoE is. As I understanding the new pedals have been fitted on a significant amount of trains, so if we bring them all to a stop what happens? All those people you’ve been tugging our heartstrings about on overcrowded trains suddenly have no trains, which I don’t think you can deny is a far sight worse than short formed trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2023 ==

Unfortunately sometimes working conditions can be tough, and we should be looking at finding a solution to that that works long term, when the alternative is unworkable (Assuming the DSD pedals in the trains now have had to be replaced are being so for safety reasons) Designing a new microcontroller, setting up a production line and installing them is not an overnight task.

 

[irish_rail]

It’s not ideal, but for this entire thread you’ve been telling us how overcrowded the WoE is. As I understanding the new pedals have been fitted on a significant amount of trains, so if we bring them all to a stop what happens? All those people you’ve been tugging our heartstrings about on overcrowded trains suddenly have no trains, which I don’t think you can deny is a far sight worse than short formed trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2023 ==

Unfortunately sometimes working conditions can be tough, and we should be looking at finding a solution to that that works long term, when the alternative is unworkable (Assuming the DSD pedals in the trains now have had to be replaced are being so for safety reasons) Designing a new microcontroller, setting up a production line and installing them is not an overnight task.

Indeed, and passengers have my sympathy, but these new pedals, if fully rolled out will lead to big problems for drivers causing back, knee, shin, leg and ankle issues. A stance needs to be taken to ensure something is done before every set gets fitted with the new type.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So answer me this. Do you genuinely think that running a 10 car train (2 x 5 car sets) is better than running a 9 car train?

No I don’t, but the DfT chose to order this make up of sets for the 800 fleet to suit their planned train service.

As for the 802/5s as @Clarence Yard has explained it was either Cornish half-hourly and 5 cars beyond Plymouth or 9 cars and no half-hourly so it’s not ideal but GWR to a degree are stuck with the fleet they have and have to make the best of it they can.

There’s nothing really that can be done about it. LNER have a different set of constraints but equally as awkward, more 9 cars in total but very few bi-mode 9 car sets which makes Highland services difficult to resource (especially if engineering work diversions) and these have very similar characteristics as Cornish services very busy throughout despite their being supplementary local services covering the last 2.5 hours of the journey from a hub (Plymouth and Edinburgh being very similar in that sense).

 

[irish_rail]

As for the 802/5s as @Clarence Yard has explained it was either Cornish half-hourly and 5 cars beyond Plymouth or 9 cars and no half-hourly so it’s not ideal but GWR to a degree are stuck with the fleet they have and have to make the best of it they can.

But again with hindsight, both cornish half hourly and full sets running into Cornwall makes sense. Id question how much money is actually saved by not just having a standard fleet of 9 cars for all wofe trains compared with the mess we have today of 10 car trains, and all the double manning and fannying around to and from depots on ECS moves, all requiring numerous drivers etc. OK, its too late now, but we would have been in a better position I would argue with all 9s plus cornish half hourly.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

its too late now, but we would have been in a better position I would argue with all 9s plus cornish half hourly.

But the DfT weren’t prepared to sign this off and you couldn’t have this without funding it was a choice and frequency was chosen.

Yes there a lot of things in the world that would have been better off if more money had been spent but you can only spend what is provided for you.

But again with hindsight, both cornish half hourly and full sets running into Cornwall makes sense.

It didn’t however make financial sense at that moment in time to the DfT. Which is why we have the current (less than ideal) mix.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2023 ==

Id question how much money is actually saved by not just having a standard fleet of 9 cars for all wofe trains compared with the mess we have today of 10 car trains, and all the double manning and fannying around to and from depots on ECS moves, all requiring numerous drivers etc.

Back when the IETs were ordered if you wanted a standardised fleet for the WofE it would have had to be a fleet of 5 cars as 9 cars don’t fit on Long Rock and at that moment the DfT weren’t funding upgrades there.

Yes hindsight is wonderful but the railway can only spend the cash it’s given and so you make do with what you have however ideal or not it is. If you sit around waiting for more money in the hope it may come you risk loosing the money totally to something else and get nothing.

 

[irish_rail]

But the DfT weren’t prepared to sign this off and you couldn’t have this without funding it was a choice and frequency was chosen.

Yes there a lot of things in the world that would have been better off if more money had been spent but you can only spend what is provided for you.



It didn’t however make financial sense at that moment in time to the DfT. Which is why we have the current (less than ideal) mix.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2023 ==



Back when the IETs were ordered if you wanted a standardised fleet for the WofE it would have had to be a fleet of 5 cars as 10 cars don’t fit on Long Rock and at that moment the DfT weren’t funding upgrades there.

Yes hindsight is wonderful but the railway can only spend the cash it’s given and so you make do with what you have however ideal or not it is.

Well I'm in agreement with you. Its a very different world and railway compared with the mid 2010s and unfortunately the southwest seems a comparative growth area in terms of rail travel these days. I think we should continue to argue for better , though I sincerely doubt anything will ever improve in terms of a decent mix of 9 car IETs for GWR.

 

[Benjwri]

Indeed, and passengers have my sympathy, but these new pedals, if fully rolled out will lead to big problems for drivers causing back, knee, shin, leg and ankle issues. A stance needs to be taken to ensure something is done before every set gets fitted with the new type

And as you mention, if fully rolled out would do that. So sure the correct procedure would be for the union to bring it up, and if a fix is not being worked on, which we do not know either way as far as I am aware (Even if one is being worked on, the design that is unfit would need to be continued to used until another is manufactured fi they're being replaced for safety, which I presume they are, as a replcement cannot be designed and manufactured overnight). If the government doesn't respond there are many actions the union can take, however taking the majority of the IET fleet out of service and shutting down GWR's operations(Or shutting down the WoE, which for any other reason you would call outrageous) is not a proportionate response to the issue. I agree a long term solution should be found, but many jobs unfortunately require discomfort, and i know I often come back from mine in pain or injured.

 

[irish_rail]

And as you mention, if fully rolled out would do that. So sure the correct procedure would be for the union to bring it up, and if a fix is not being worked on, which we do not know either way as far as I am aware (Even if one is being worked on, the design that is unfit would need to be continued to used until another is manufactured fi they're being replaced for safety, which I presume they are, as a replcement cannot be designed and manufactured overnight). If the government doesn't respond there are many actions the union can take, however taking the majority of the IET fleet out of service and shutting down GWR's operations(Or shutting down the WoE, which for any other reason you would call outrageous) is not a proportionate response to the issue. I agree a long term solution should be found, but many jobs unfortunately require discomfort, and i know I often come back from mine in pain or injured.

The big difference here is safety. Train driving is not comparable to many jobs where discomfort is just seen as part and parcel. Focusing ones concentration on the physical pain of keeping the DsD pedal down for hours on end is going to incur fatigue and lead to potential loss of concentration. Anything which detracts from concentration has to be taken seriously, however trivial it may seem to an onlooker.

 

[Annetts key]

Unfortunately sometimes working conditions can be tough, and we should be looking at finding a solution to that that works long term, when the alternative is unworkable (Assuming the DSD pedals in the trains now have had to be replaced are being so for safety reasons) Designing a new microcontroller, setting up a production line and installing them is not an overnight task.

There are thousands of different variations of microcontrollers. I suggest the real problem is that of the source (computer/microcontroller/microprocessor human readable) code not being available, hence new (as in current devices that are in production) microcontrollers cannot be programmed.

 

[Master29]

You can believe what you like - but if those seven extra 9-cars had been allocated purely to the Oxford/Cotswold corridor then we would have had near wall-to-wall 9-car operation all day, all week. For some mysterious reason we didn't

So, by your token it's mysterious that the Cotswolds didn't receive all 9 car trains and yet you berate anyone's attempt to justify extra 9 car trains on the W of E to Penzance route. This doesn't make sense

I've said over and over that only 30% of Cotswold Line services west of Oxford were ever allocated a 9-car set in the December 2019 timetable plan, almost all focused in the busiest periods on weekdays and at weekends, and that figure is down now to 20%. Fact.

I completely agree.

I have no issue with adjustments being made to peak services in the light of current demand hereabouts - but I do have an issue with people pretending on this forum that there are no overcrowded services on the Cotswold Line (or it's just for eight minutes...), or that there are no services that have loadings where a 9-car IET is the appropriate size of train to use, and that a train leaving Hereford in mid-afternoon that reaches Oxford at 5.30pm on its way to Reading and London does not need a 9-car train. All claims that we have been treated to endlessly for years now - even now with lots of 9-cars running to the West Country, all the way to Penzance.

I don't pretend there isn't overcrowding on the Cotswolds. So why is this wrong in the case of Penzance? Yes, I know the reason Clarenceyard has pointed out about the constraints of not being able to join up to a 10 car at Oxford and the extreme location of Penzance and accept this but it doesn't mean there isn't a problem here does it? It seems in fact many are trying to justify it.

Parts of the Cotswolds are in other council areas, notably West Oxfordshire (where Hanborough, Charlbury and Kingham stations are located) Stroud, Tewkesbury and the north of Wiltshire. So there are one or two more second homes to add in those places.

Indeed, but I doubt as much as 80% in any of these cases.

I was reading an old article from a railway magazine in the 1990s that declared the WofE route one of intercitys most profitable. Going on what Clarence Yard posts, this is apparently no longer the case, and you have to wander what has gone wrong between 1993 (the date of the article) and now, where, apparently the cotswold line generates more profit than the WofE. My personal opinion is that the staffing costs of running 10 car IETs (as opposed to a single 9 car train) is one big factor in driving up costs and thus driving down profits. On the cotswold, the trains are either 5 or 9 car so are less wasteful in terms of use of resources.

I'm not sure I agree that the route numbers are no longer profitable, certainly during the last 2 years since the lockdown. This is however my opinion and you make an excellent point as to why Clarence yard says this is no longer the case. There must be a good reason for this. Car usage possibly?

It’s not ideal, but for this entire thread you’ve been telling us how overcrowded the WoE is. As I understanding the new pedals have been fitted on a significant amount of trains, so if we bring them all to a stop what happens? All those people you’ve been tugging our heartstrings about on overcrowded trains suddenly have no trains, which I don’t think you can deny is a far sight worse than short formed trains.

It's not only not ideal it's pathetic because yesterday morning the W of E had only on 5 car train to Penzance prior to 10am. Not only that but another 3 short formed services after this. That puts the not ideal point into sharp perspective I think. Incidentally, Oxford had all 9 car trains over the same time period.

All those people you’ve been tugging our heartstrings about on overcrowded trains suddenly have no trains, which I don’t think you can deny is a far sight worse than short formed trains.

Which is almost exactly what happened west of Plymouth yesterday morning apart from local services.

 

[Benjwri]

Incidentally, Oxford had all 9 car trains over the same time period.

All the North Cotswold trains were 5 car this morning, so I'm very unsure what your definition of all is. The Oxford terminations were 9 car, but if you don't think that is needed you've obviously never travelled to Oxford on a weekday morning. 5 cars would be leaving people on the platform.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Plenty of people very clearly allowing the conflict-of-interest that is where they live to bias their opinions, unfortunately. Of course @irish_rail wants the nines to go to Cornwall, and of course @jimm wants them to go to the Cotswolds (though seems slightly less insistent, probably as it’s the least busy of the three routes mentioned here), and I’d rather like to bag them all for Cardiffs seeing as 75% of the IETs I see daily are single 5s, but ultimately the South Wales, Bristols and Plymouths along with the odd Cotswolds and Exeter semi-fast services are all very busy indeed and a mix seems fair enough.

 

[irish_rail]

Plenty of people very clearly allowing the conflict-of-interest that is where they live to bias their opinions, unfortunately. Of course @irish_rail wants the nines to go to Cornwall, and of course @jimm wants them to go to the Cotswolds (though seems slightly less insistent, probably as it’s the least busy of the three routes mentioned here), and I’d rather like to bag them all for Cardiffs seeing as 75% of the IETs I see daily are single 5s, but ultimately the South Wales, Bristols and Plymouths along with the odd Cotswolds and Exeter semi-fast services are all very busy indeed and a mix seems fair enough.

Where everyone is in agreement , I think, is that the 5 cars are generally disliked, especially running in pairs and no one really wants them. And yet that's what Daft have specified for EMR and Euston to Holyhead.

 

[RobShipway]

Where everyone is in agreement , I think, is that the 5 cars are generally disliked, especially running in pairs and no one really wants them. And yet that's what Daft have specified for EMR and Euston to Holyhead.

But the pairing has happened for years with Avanti, such that the two five car class 221 units at Chester go their separate ways with one set going to Wrexham General. That having been said there is a 5 coach class 221 train that is leaving Chester at 8:32am this morning for London Euston. But you also need to remember that the class 805 carriages whilst still being 5 cars, are longer carriages in length, so in that respect more passengers are likely to be able to travel on it. Whether those passengers have seats, that is another matter.

As someone once said to me, you cannot expect a Roll Royce to turn up when the fare you are paying is at a price level of a Mondeo or Skoda. The fact that new trains are being provided for Avanti even though the class 221 units are 20 years old or so and GWR have been provided new Intercity trains over the last 5 years, where many others in the country are or having to be using trains that are 30 - 40 years old with no sign of them being replaced, I think is something to be grateful for, not whinging about.

 

[Benjwri]

GWR have been provided new Intercity trains over the last 5 years, where many others in the country are or having to be using trains that are 30 - 40 years old with no sign of them being replaced, I think is something to be grateful for, not whinging about.

I agree in a way there is too much winging, but there are also circumstances I’ve seen where a 5 car short form leaves people behind on the platform. When it causes a decrease in passenger capacity that is needed that is something to complain about.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I was reading an old article from a railway magazine in the 1990s that declared the WofE route one of intercitys most profitable. Going on what Clarence Yard posts, this is apparently no longer the case, and you have to wander what has gone wrong between 1993 (the date of the article) and now, where, apparently the cotswold line generates more profit than the WofE. My personal opinion is that the staffing costs of running 10 car IETs (as opposed to a single 9 car train) is one big factor in driving up costs and thus driving down profits. On the cotswold, the trains are either 5 or 9 car so are less wasteful in terms of use of resources.

As a former WR Area Finance Manager, I would say that article was wrong. At best a puff piece for someone, at worst someone was manipulating the infrastructure costs (which would have been attributed to sub sector in those days). There is no way that could have been correct, given the revenue the West of England had at that time, the mileages involved and the running and maintenance costs of the HST fleet. It just isn’t remotely possible.

The Cotswold traffic has mushroomed since those days but traffic from the far west towards London? It hasn’t increased nearly as much.

 

[irish_rail]

As a former WR Area Finance Manager, I would say that article was wrong. At best a puff piece for someone, at worst someone was manipulating the infrastructure costs (which would have been attributed to sub sector in those days). There is no way that could have been correct, given the revenue the West of England had at that time, the mileages involved and the running and maintenance costs of the HST fleet. It just isn’t remotely possible.

The Cotswold traffic has mushroomed since those days but traffic from the far west towards London? It hasn’t increased nearly as much.

Came from Brian Scott, apparently.