GWR standing between first class carriages

[Stargull]

I’m on a very crowded five coach Paddington service which just left Oxford. It’s standing room only including down the middle of the train, and the situation has not been helped by two RPIs who at Oxford prevented people boarding between D (half first) and E (all first), fairly aggressively telling those with standard tickets they couldn’t get on there, and certainly shouldn’t plan to stand between the first class carriages. My question is: if they hadn’t been there but had come through after Oxford, would anyone in the vestibule without a first class ticket be liable? I get they don’t want people in the aisle but it seems remarkably harsh in the circumstances to be policing such a thing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2025 ==

I’ve just cut through and they lost the battle: lots of people standing in first. Maybe they saw sense.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I’m on a very crowded five coach Paddington service which just left Oxford. It’s standing room only including down the middle of the train, and the situation has not been helped by two RPIs who at Oxford prevented people boarding between D (half first) and E (all first), fairly aggressively telling those with standard tickets they couldn’t get on there, and certainly shouldn’t plan to stand between the first class carriages. My question is: if they hadn’t been there but had come through after Oxford, would anyone in the vestibule without a first class ticket be liable? I get they don’t want people in the aisle but it seems remarkably harsh in the circumstances to be policing such a thing.

By the letter of the rules, the RPIs are right. Per the National Rail Conditions of Travel (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf) :

15. Using First Class Accommodation
15.1 Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

(my italics)

Whether this is the right practical decision in the circumstances is, of course, another matter - and probably one for the staff on the ground to decide.

 

[kermit]

Are there any circumstances where walking through First Class is allowed, eg alerting train crew to a problem, or even an emergency, in standard class?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Are there any circumstances where walking through First Class is allowed, eg alerting train crew to a problem, or even an emergency, in standard class?

The general consensus is that passing through first class is fine - and there are some circumstances where it is near to unavoidable: if you're looking for the large toilet on a TPE Class 185 then unless you are in the small standard class area by the loo, then you will have to walk through first class.

 

[jfollows]

You can always walk through First Class, on many trains it’s between Standard Class sections anyway, but stopping there, sitting or standing, is what’s not allowed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any circumstances where walking through First Class is allowed, eg alerting train crew to a problem, or even an emergency, in standard class?

Yes, in a typical train made up of a number of multiple units, or in some MU classes where first is ‘in the middle’, you can walk through first to get to another set of standard accommodation. IIRC byelaw 19 only says you must not ‘remain’ in first, not that you cannot pass through.

 

[gray1404]

There is nothing wrong with boarding there with a standard ticket. It is the remaining in a first class carriage or vestibule that would be the issue.

 

[sh24]

Can’t remember if the IET’s have them, but pretty sure EMR’s 222’s have signs indicating the vestibule is First class territory. It’s a bit harsh when a train is crush loaded. Even if it does make loo access tricky for First passengers

 

[kermit]

So if the people who occasionally come on here having been Penalty Fared or worse for standing in a First vestibule, had been a bit lighter on their feet and scarpered, they'd have got away with it?!

 

[Sleepy]

Presumbly this is to try to stop "the guard has gone I'll sit here now" types ? By the way it never ceases to amaze on Greater Anglia every window in 1st class coaches has a window sticker stating 1st class but there is always couple of people having to move when tickets are checked departing Liverpool St.

 

[styles]

Presumbly this is to try to stop "the guard has gone I'll sit here now" types ? By the way it never ceases to amaze on Greater Anglia every window in 1st class coaches has a window sticker stating 1st class but there is always couple of people having to move when tickets are checked departing Liverpool St.

I suspect it's more that the bylaw was written intentionally to account for first class areas not all being seating. First class passengers may hope for a less frequently used toilet, or a first class catering or dining area, or not have the awkward staring or sardine packed passengers in the vestibules peering in to their seated carriage where they're enjoying a cooked meal with 'free' wine. Half of the selling point of first class is a quieter and more relaxing experience; it's not quite the same if you struggle to get to the toilet or have people staring at you from the vestibule while you tuck in to your steak and hasselbacks.

 

[The exile]

I’m on a very crowded five coach Paddington service which just left Oxford. It’s standing room only including down the middle of the train, and the situation has not been helped by two RPIs who at Oxford prevented people boarding between D (half first) and E (all first), fairly aggressively telling those with standard tickets they couldn’t get on there,

In complete contrast to other parts of the GWR network where the PA frequently exhorts waiting passengers to “use all available doors”.

 

[Snow1964]

In complete contrast to other parts of the GWR network where the PA frequently exhorts waiting passengers to “use all available doors”.

Exactly, the Op says wouldn't let one of two doors in a composite coach be used. That is just plain wrong. The requirements are you don't stand, sit or linger in a first class area, not you can't walk through.

From memory the GWR 5car IETs composite is about 30% of its length First and 70% standard, so why would anyone allocate the doors as exclusive to each part.

By the sounds of it these RPIs were making up rules, and of course if they think can't enter, then presumably think can't use the other door to exit either. Bonkers idea, especially in an emergency.

As an aside on GWR I have been allocated seats on 9car IET where the allocated coach doesn't even fit in the platform. How would that work if had to use specific door.

 

[1955LR]

In complete contrast to other parts of the GWR network where the PA frequently exhorts waiting passengers to “use all available doors”.

I have been at Birmingham international (BHI), busy with passengers coming from a big show at the NEC, and have staff advise over the PA to use any available seat, including First class, on trains terminating at New Street

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I have been at Birmingham international (BHI), busy with passengers coming from a big show at the NEC, and have staff advise over the PA to use any available seat, including First class, on trains terminating at New Street

That's declassification of the train, something completely different.