GWR short train lengths

[uglymonkey]

I didn't know they had kitchens, I thought they only had trolleys?

 

[Benjwri]

I didn't know they had kitchens, I thought they only had trolleys?

Nope they have fairly well equipped kitchens which are pretty much never used except a select few services

 

[PeterY]

A comment from my daughter yesterday. We were travelling between Wokingham and Crowthorne at 11.00. It was only 2 car 165 instead of 3 cars. She said "Where's the rest of the train"

 

[Energy]

What First originally proposed for HST replacement, but of course Daft had other ideas. HST2 , if nationwide would have been transformational provided it evolved to be electric or diesel.

The initial proposal was a UK version of the Siemens Venturio (very similar to the ICE TD over in Germany), then later a MTU engined euro runner + 444 inspired design.

The OBB railjets are fixed formation just like the Mk5s, if First went ahead it likely wouldn't have been flexible coaches.

 

[GWVillager]

Would they be able to remove the stupidly large kitchens? At least in 5 cars. Or would that require some kind of testing?

I wouldn’t know, but that does seem like a good idea. They’re hardly ever used to their full extent sadly, and it would certainly be possible to confine the Silver Services to 9 cars. I doubt it would require much testing, clearance etc., it’s been done in the past with other stock.

 

[Master29]

And arguably they would’ve taken a similar view to the amount they needed, they’d fail just as much because of greater technology for safety, and we’d have the same issues.

It doesn’t matter what train you use, if you impose the same budget constrains that you did on the IETs, you’ll end up in this situation.

Not necessarily.

Let’s be even more honest - they’re not going to get a replacement for decades. I think they will last their planned 30 years, but I can see a refurbishment coming relatively soon that shrinks the generous legroom and table frequency to increase capacity, as well as removing the first class section in the composite coach of five car sets. If this were to also address the seat comfort, it would probably be a preferable situation, even with the short forms.

However, this is firmly speculation. In the meantime we probably have to just breathe in…

We don't know this for sure. It would be a temporary problem solving issue but I still doubt the IET's will ever go 30 years in their current role, contract wise or not.

Would they be able to remove the stupidly large kitchens? At least in 5 cars. Or would that require some kind of testing?

I bloody well hope so. A complete waste of time and space.

 

[irish_rail]

Let’s be even more honest - they’re not going to get a replacement for decades. I think they will last their planned 30 years, but I can see a refurbishment coming relatively soon that shrinks the generous legroom and table frequency to increase capacity, as well as removing the first class section in the composite coach of five car sets. If this were to also address the seat comfort, it would probably be a preferable situation, even with the short forms.

However, this is firmly speculation. In the meantime we probably have to just breathe in…

First class is too well used to remove any FC capacity on the 5 cars.

 

[GWVillager]

First class is too well used to remove any FC capacity on the 5 cars.

Indeed it is, but standard is even more well used, and you can fit more standard passengers in the same amount of floor space. Obviously reducing it would be a terrible way to increase capacity, but we’re talking about making the best of a, frankly, shambolic situation here.

 

[irish_rail]

Indeed it is, but standard is even more well used, and you can fit more standard passengers in the same amount of floor space. Obviously reducing it would be a terrible way to increase capacity, but we’re talking about making the best of a, frankly, shambolic situation here.

Well itd be bye bye Pullman restaraunt if this happens, as at present most Pullman trains are 10 car sets and so there would be no way forward unless 9 car sets got used on the WofE a bit more. That doesn't happen as much as it used too, so I'd say they'd use it as an excuse to kill off the Pullman.

 

[TPO]

I see in the latest 'Modern Railways' that passenger levels to Devon and Cornwall are running at 110% of pre-pandemic figures. Let's be honest - there is no way that the GW IETs will last until the end of the contract - they are simply not up to the job. They are after all a lightweight EMU design with diesel engines bolted on as an afterthought. Presumably there will come a point where the failure rate will become so intolerable that Hitachi will be obliged to provide new trains or both parties mutually agree to end the ruinous contract. I see the GWR MD is advocating electrification between Newton Abbot and Plymouth, with battery power to fill in the gaps.

When the IETs were brought in, my first impression at the time was that they were trains geared primarily to the Thames Valley commuter market, with the exensions of the routes beyond Bristol being something of an afterthought.

Seeing how things worked out I reckon that was a pretty accurate first impression.

Of course, with the changing travel patterns post COVID it has come back to bite the DfT it the tail, but that's what you get when London-based civil servants (rather than experienced route-based railway managers) specify the trains.

TPO

 

[Krokodil]

When the IETs were brought in, my first impression at the time was that they were trains geared primarily to the Thames Valley commuter market, with the exensions of the routes beyond Bristol being something of an afterthought.

It used to be joked (particularly in reference to the high-density seated HSTs) that FGW's intercity services were merely westward extensions of Reading commuter trains.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well itd be bye bye Pullman restaraunt if this happens, as at present most Pullman trains are 10 car sets and so there would be no way forward unless 9 car sets got used on the WofE a bit more. That doesn't happen as much as it used too, so I'd say they'd use it as an excuse to kill off the Pullman.

You are well aware of the reasons why the 9s are less prevalent on the WofE at the moment - the DSD issue.

It remains the fact the vast majority of Plymouth/Paignton and Penzance services are booked 9 cars including some of the Pullman services (including both dinner services).

 

[ChewChewTrain]

It used to be joked (particularly in reference to the high-density seated HSTs) that FGW's intercity services were merely westward extensions of Reading commuter trains.

Conversely, I’ve wondered on occasion if Paddington is merely on the end of a long and glorified branch line from Reading. At least, I did before last year.

 

[irish_rail]

You are well aware of the reasons why the 9s are less prevalent on the WofE at the moment - the DSD issue.

It remains the fact the vast majority of Plymouth/Paignton and Penzance services are booked 9 cars including some of the Pullman services (including both dinner services).

The point remains that the Pullman trains are 10 cars though, booked.

 

[REVUpminster]

1C70 cancelled 2 days running. 4/7 Paignton-Exmouth only have 2 coaches. 150s seem to be short supply. 1/3 Barnstaple 2 coaches 2 days running.

 

[158 fan]

1C70 cancelled 2 days running. 4/7 Paignton-Exmouth only have 2 coaches. 150s seem to be short supply. 1/3 Barnstaple 2 coaches 2 days running.

maybe the 150s are getting too old? 219 is really squeaky

 

[Dan G]

It used to be joked (particularly in reference to the high-density seated HSTs) that FGW's intercity services were merely westward extensions of Reading commuter trains.

Well, they are. Always have been, always will be. IETs are efficient people movers that can do 125 mph under wires or without them.

 

[Xavi]

Well, they are. Always have been, always will be. IETs are efficient people movers that can do 125 mph under wires or without them.

125 is a struggle without wires. If they are merely people movers then not really fit-for-purpose based on Devon/Cornwall loadings west of Reading.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

125 is a struggle without wires. If they are merely people movers then not really fit-for-purpose based on Devon/Cornwall loadings west of Reading.

Agreed - whilst they do reach 125mph eventually (after an interminable time in the 115-125 range) it requires the GWR-style unmuzzling of the power curve and consequent poor reliability that has been apparent for some time. The reality is they are a 100mph diesel train that are being stretched to achieve something they weren’t really designed for.

The LNER sets are ‘muzzled’ in diesel mode and I doubt you’d get one of those much over 100mph. They certainly seem rather underpowered on the long climbs in the Highlands to Inverness.

 

[daikilo]

Agreed - whilst they do reach 125mph eventually (after an interminable time in the 115-125 range) it requires the GWR-style unmuzzling of the power curve and consequent poor reliability that has been apparent for some time. The reality is they are a 100mph diesel train that are being stretched to achieve something they weren’t really designed for.

The LNER sets are ‘muzzled’ in diesel mode and I doubt you’d get one of those much over 100mph. They certainly seem rather underpowered on the long climbs in the Highlands to Inverness.

Oh, so what GWR got was not a true 125 replacement? Thanks DafT

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Oh, so what GWR got was not a true 125 replacement? Thanks DafT

The specification was for a train that could achieve the ‘overall HST schedules‘ on diesel, not for a 125mph train per se. They are obviously capable of 125mph (and far more) in electric mode, and the design specification obviously assumed that the wiring would be considerably more extensive than it has ended up. There was a prolonged debate between TOC, Hitachi and DfT about what power rating was actually required in diesel mode to achieve the required timings, with trains being modified in many cases after delivery and entry into service. I believe the DfT’s original assessment was on a very basic speed/distance/time basis, so for instance they identified that Paddington-Bristol with 5 stops needed to be achievable in diesel mode in 1h45m but failed to understand that 5 mins of that was engineering recovery allowance and another proportion of it was pathing time for the last couple of miles into Bristol, running behind a local service. Consequently the (old timetable) timings had to be eased in places to enable the initial 800 sets to enter service on the old HST sectional timings without losing time.

 

[irish_rail]

Well, they are. Always have been, always will be. IETs are efficient people movers that can do 125 mph under wires or without them.

Not true post covid. The Wofe for one can hold its own without Reading commuters.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Not true post covid. The Wofe for one can hold its own without Reading commuters.

Is there another short distance flow anywhere in the national ‘intercity network’ quite like Paddington to Reading? It has such a disproportionate impact on the overall GWR service, you could almost justify a separate railway just to serve it.

 

[Horizon22]

Nope they have fairly well equipped kitchens which are pretty much never used except a select few services

Yes and they also take a substantial amount of space in a 5-car.

 

[irish_rail]

Nope they have fairly well equipped kitchens which are pretty much never used except a select few services

Better to remove the kitchens out of all the 5 car sets, keep them on the more local stuff and make the Wofe and Swansea pullman services all 9 car. If you leave all the 9 cars with a full kitchen you still have a pretty decent amount of contingency. Ideally you would only have 9 car sets on WofE but before I get shouted down, I know that isn't going to happen! (Even though it would make perfect sense!!)

 

[GWVillager]

Is there another short distance flow anywhere in the national ‘intercity network’ quite like Paddington to Reading? It has such a disproportionate impact on the overall GWR service, you could almost justify a separate railway just to serve it.

The Elizabeth Line? In all seriousness though, would it be unrealistic to do joining/splitting of 5/10 coach trains at Reading to provide a capacity boost? It could help soften some of the worst overcrowding without using too many units.

 

[irish_rail]

The Elizabeth Line? In all seriousness though, would it be unrealistic to do joining/splitting of 5/10 coach trains at Reading to provide a capacity boost? It could help soften some of the worst overcrowding without using too many units.

Unless I'm misreading your suggestion im not sure how this helps? The overcrowding occurs where a short form turns up , as well as on the Wofe line for part of the day. Reading commuters really aren't the problem they once where.

 

[kentrailman]

It used to be joked (particularly in reference to the high-density seated HSTs) that FGW's intercity services were merely westward extensions of Reading commuter trains.

It certainly feels like you are on a commuter line when you travel to Bristol ; or as it invariably is, to Reading Didcot Swindon Chippenham Bath and finally Bristol. For a brief few weeks pre covid we got those nice non stop trains but it wasn't to last. Where did the stock that was used for those trains vanish to ? Soon of course we will have to add Old Oak to that long list of stops. The WCML can get to crewe non stop, the ECML to York. GWR to Reading.

 

[geoffk]

Nope they have fairly well equipped kitchens which are pretty much never used except a select few services

Perhaps they could be used as accommodation for surf boards.

 

[Western Sunset]

With their original TRUK/TRSB formation, HSTs were (particularly on the 7-car WR ones) over-provided with catering facilities. And so it comes to pass that the same error appears to have been perpetrated in the IETs.