GWR short train lengths

[HamworthyGoods]

i do wonder if cl 175 units at a lower Least cost may be a way forward , for Cdf -Bristol -Portsmouth

But a huge training cost in both traincrew and maintenance staff which wouldn’t be signed off by DfT/Treasury regardless of leasing costs.

GWR is in the cost-cut mode with HST withdrawal not fleet growth regardless of passenger numbers.

I’m afraid that’s where our railway which are DfT controlled are at the moment. If a fleet which is cheap to lease and requires no training you might just about make a case, however even this isn’t guaranteed - look at the debate about XC and 221s.

 

[43096]

But a huge training cost in both traincrew and maintenance staff which wouldn’t be signed off by DfT/Treasury regardless of leasing costs.

GWR is in the cost-cut mode with HST withdrawal not fleet growth regardless of passenger numbers.

I’m afraid that’s where our railway which are DfT controlled are at the moment. If a fleet which is cheap to lease and requires no training you might just about make a case, however even this isn’t guaranteed - look at the debate about XC and 221s.

For GWR, cheap to lease and no training suggests the TfW 150 fleet as an obvious source of trains.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

For GWR, cheap to lease and no training suggests the TfW 150 fleet as an obvious source of trains.

Them or the TfW cl158s seem the most obvious choices where GWR might be able to make a case.

The cl150s are some while away from release by TfW (think they are the last DMUs due off lease) and if the corrosion problems and supplies issue persist with the cl150s there also no guarantee the leasing company will be interested in releasing them either.

Challenging times ahead it seems!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Cotswold Line Oxford Padd, were very busy last Saturday with 5 cars, clearly, it was truly awful post Oxford .

That sounds like you were on 800 021 on the 18.32 from Oxford...?

 

[Kingham West]

That sounds like you were on 800 021 on the 18.32 from Oxford...?

No 11.02 Kgm pad

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No 11.02 Kgm pad

Seems to have been an all day issue, then...

The 18.32 I mentioned was full and standing, about 20 people in each aisle and 10 in each vestibule...

 

[alf]

I joined a very crowded Liz line train for Reading at Ealing Broadway this morning around 11am.

The 345 unit was like being in a garden. Hundreds of women in their best hats & flowery dresses & literally hundreds of men in blazers. Very many standing.
When we got to Twyford they all left for the branch train to Henley Regatta.

Twyford’s Henley platform was already heaving with several hundred more blazers & flowery dresses waiting for the branch train.
There was nowhere left to stand on the platform. And the passengers from my train had not yet reached the branch platform.

My Liz line train then set off & I had no chance to see if the usual 3 car turbo had been replaced with 5 or 6 cars. Even that would have been inadequate. Anyone know if GWR had the sense or spare stock to strengthen the Henley branch train?

 

[RPI]

I know I've said it before, and sound like a broken record, but one way to buy a bit of breathing space is to form some (not all) of the 150's into 3 car sets for Devon, the amount of 2 car 150 formations over the past week is embarrassing, yesterday a load of schoolkids were left behind at Teignmouth with the following train picking them up. Most Devon Metro services would be fine as a 3 car, could mean less turbo dependency in Devon.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I know I've said it before, and sound like a broken record, but one way to buy a bit of breathing space is to form some (not all) of the 150's into 3 car sets for Devon, the amount of 2 car 150 formations over the past week is embarrassing, yesterday a load of schoolkids were left behind at Teignmouth with the following train picking them up. Most Devon Metro services would be fine as a 3 car, could mean less turbo dependency in Devon.

That’s slightly harder than it sounds in reality I’m afraid: currently 3 x 150 pairs and 4 x turbo on Devon Metro.

Of those 150 pairs one splits at Exeter at 18.30 to cover the the 18.45 Okehampton as units step up due to the Axminster. Then one of the other pairs forms the Cornish swap over pair of 150s (which leaves for Cornwall before the sets back from Cornwall arrive). That only really leaves one 4 car diagram available to play with.

 

[RPI]

That’s slightly harder than it sounds in reality I’m afraid: currently 3 x 150 pairs and 4 x turbo on Devon Metro.

Of those 150 pairs one splits at Exeter at 18.30 to cover the the 18.45 Okehampton as units step up due to the Axminster. Then one of the other pairs forms the Cornish swap over pair of 150s (which leaves for Cornwall before the sets back from Cornwall arrive). That only really leaves one 4 car diagram available to play with.

Thank you for the detailed explanation, though in reality, its very rarely 4 Turbo's! In fact, I can't remember the last time it was! Likewise, I can't remember the last time all the pairs of 150's were formed.

What makes it all the more frustrating is that Exmouth-Paignton was the only route (on GWR) to see fare increases for the second time this year at the start of June and their service has gotten worse.

 

[mikeb42]

Tempers fraying (fortunately in a repressed British sort of way) on the 2249 Neath out of Paddington tonight. Not mine as I'm adopting a zen-like resignation to being wedged in a vestibule again as this is now par for the course and I arrived expecting it. (One of) the guard(s) was actively encouraging anyone who could take a different service to do so. This situation is the routine now this service has been dropped to 5 car by design.

On my way into London in the 5-6pm time frame I saw many 5 car units going the other way and boarding at Paddington. All rammed to the gunwales with people in aisles and plastered against the doors like a Garfield on a car windscreen.

So that's nearly £100 to be wedged into a half length train on both legs of a 250 mile round trip then further delayed by swans on the line (at least that's a new one in the daily game of Numberwang to generate a reason for the Liz to be fubar'd).

Hopefully the train back will be late to Brizzle sufficiently to get delay repay as now also seems par for the course.

What a way to run a railway. (Yes I know it's everyone but GWR's fault etc etc)

 

[Krokodil]

Just remember, according to the government nobody takes the train any more...

 

[JonathanH]

My Liz line train then set off & I had no chance to see if the usual 3 car turbo had been replaced with 5 or 6 cars. Even that would have been inadequate. Anyone know if GWR had the sense or spare stock to strengthen the Henley branch train?

Henley branch has been four coach from mid morning since Wednesday using 165118 and 165120. Should be longer trains on Saturday but to do that requires the trains to reverse in platform 4 at Twyford, rather than the bay.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Henley branch has been four coach from mid morning since Wednesday using 165118 and 165120. Should be longer trains on Saturday but to do that requires the trains to reverse in platform 4 at Twyford, rather than the bay.

Saturday (the main event at the Regatta) is longer trains and using platform 4. Usually a reduced frequency on the Basingstoke line to accommodate this extra stock requirement.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don't understand the rationale for this, as they are hardly busy services west of Swansea

How often do you travel west of Swansea, only as I’m curious as to what experiences you’ve had that’ve determined this assertion?

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It's a complicated balancing act for GWR controllers at the moment as Carmarthen and some Penzance services have to be 10 / 5 cars making swaps at Paddington much more difficult.

Also keeping 800's coupling to 800's and 802's to 802's, as they are still not permitted to couple.

Then someone must have had a slap on the wrist re. the 800/0 and 802/0 I saw paired at Cardiff Central last year.

 

[Anonymous10]

How often do you travel west of Swansea, only as I’m curious as to what experiences you’ve had that’ve determined this assertion?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2023 ==


Then someone must have had a slap on the wrist re. the 800/0 and 802/0 I saw paired at Cardiff Central last year.

I can say as someone from West Wales they won't be packed however 3 carriages are usually pretty full so definitely not carrying air around.

 

[northernbelle]

Just remember, according to the government nobody takes the train any more...

This is such a boring oft-repeated statement and isn't true.

The government is saying that income is down (it is) and that the railway is unsustainably expensive to run.

We are in a situation where the railway is nudging past pre-pandemic passenger numbers but only getting around 80% of the revenue, while costs are rising too. That is why the government is asking operators to reduce their overheads.

 

[43066]

This is such a boring oft-repeated statement and isn't true.

Only a few weeks ago Grant Shapps falsely claimed in a Sky News interview that passenger numbers were still 40% down on odd Covid.

The government is saying that income is down (it is) and that the railway is unsustainably expensive to run.

The statement that the railway is “unsustainably expensive to run” is a value judgment. Railway spending is chicken feed compared to other sectors. A lot of the expense has also directly resulted from the DFTs own decisions (rolling stock procurement in particular).

We are in a situation where the railway is nudging past pre-pandemic passenger numbers but only getting around 80% of the revenue, while costs are rising too. That is why the government is asking operators to reduce their overheads.

Which also makes no sense to focus on (unless you’re anti public services generally), when the primary purpose of the railway isn’t to generate revenue in its own right. The railway has also been made a lot less usable by cuts being made to timetables which might be inhibiting passenger and revenue growth. See also the industrial dispute which the government has admitted has cost more than allowing a settlement would have done, and is seemingly being continued for ideological reasons.

 

[irish_rail]

Only a few weeks ago Grant Shapps falsely claimed in a Sky News interview that passenger numbers were still 40% down on odd Covid.



The statement that the railway is “unsustainably expensive to run” is a value judgment. Railway spending is chicken feed compared to other sectors. A lot of the expense has also directly resulted from the DFTs own decisions (rolling stock procurement in particular).



Which also makes no sense to focus on (unless you’re anti public services generally), when the primary purpose of the railway isn’t to generate revenue in its own right. The railway has also been made a lot less usable by cuts being made to timetables which might be inhibiting passenger and revenue growth. See also the industrial dispute which the government has admitted has cost more than allowing a settlement would have done, and is seemingly being continued for ideological reasons.

Spot on. The railway is at fault for its huge overheads with ridiculous amounts of duplication . The example I always use is why two sets of drivers at Plymouth, same route knowledge, but I cannot drive a Voyager to Exeter, whilst Mr XC driver cannot drive an IET. Its just one depot, and there are plenty of others where even greater efficiencies could exist, which would allow for some big savings when you spread it to look at all train crew and clerical, management posts etc etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2023 ==

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2023 ==


Then someone must have had a slap on the wrist re. the 800/0 and 802/0 I saw paired at Cardiff Central last year.

Was allowed last year, not now due to software changes, its permitted in a rescue / emergency situation, not in normal running for the time being , although I believe the plan is to do it again in future.

 

[Xavi]

The railway is at fault for its huge overheads with ridiculous amounts of duplication

Agree totally, although government should identify this and reverse duplication brought about by privatisation. Railway can only do what government instructs. As Roger Ford always highlights, subsidy has grown compared to BR.

 

[Krokodil]

The government is saying that income is down (it is)

And who have been quashing attempts to grow income (not to mention providing reliable services)? The government.

the railway is unsustainably expensive to run.

Who was it who fragmented the railway such that multiple traincrew depots exist where in the past there was just one? Who came up with the ridiculously expensive IET programme and encouraged the replacement of perfectly good EMUs with lots of life left with brand new ones? See above.

 

[RPI]

Devon wasn't that bad today, though one Barnstaple diagram was a 2 car 158 which ended up being on a train where the previous one was cancelled, but other than that a rare day of being ok!

 

[REVUpminster]

Devon wasn't that bad today, though one Barnstaple diagram was a 2 car 158 which ended up being on a train where the previous one was cancelled, but other than that a rare day of being ok!

2F07 was cancelled at Paignton leaving a 1h15m gap. No 12 bus would have been crowded? Paignton is a commuter town for Exeter. A 2h12m gap at Barnstaple another commuter town for Exeter. Also a 2 car turbo operating.

 

[northernbelle]

And who have been quashing attempts to grow income (not to mention providing reliable services)? The government.


Who was it who fragmented the railway such that multiple traincrew depots exist where in the past there was just one? Who came up with the ridiculously expensive IET programme and encouraged the replacement of perfectly good EMUs with lots of life left with brand new ones? See above.

I wasn't really apportioning blame - just highlighting that nobody is actually saying that "people aren't using railways", more a debate about cost and income than passenger numbers.

 

[RPI]

2F07 was cancelled at Paignton leaving a 1h15m gap. No 12 bus would have been crowded? Paignton is a commuter town for Exeter. A 2h12m gap at Barnstaple another commuter town for Exeter. Also a 2 car turbo operating.

Compared to the last 2 weeks today was bliss, I work the route on a daily basis.

 

[Falcon1200]

How often do you travel west of Swansea, only as I’m curious as to what experiences you’ve had that’ve determined this assertion?

One train is not of course a conclusive example, however on Wednesday 28th I travelled on GWR's 1619 from Carmarthen, to Swansea, and in the coach I was in there was precisely one other passenger.

 

[REVUpminster]

Compared to the last 2 weeks today was bliss, I work the route on a daily basis.

I wonder if it was bliss for the staff at Paignton Station turning up for work to find 06.34 cancelled or the passengers who had to get to work.

 

[RPI]

I wonder if it was bliss for the staff at Paignton Station turning up for work to find 06.34 cancelled or the passengers who had to get to work.

Cancellations happen all the time, the staff there deal with it as they're all professional, the 06:34 isn't a particularly busy train from Paignton, it would be more of an issue had the 0739 been cancelled, that one actually is busy.

Point stands that nearly everything was for once correctly formed that day, one or two traincrew issues caused a couple of cancellations.

 

[Sleepy]

A nice 1103 Paddington to Penzance formed by 5 car today won't be pretty !!!

 

[Snow1964]

1F05, 1F14, 1F21, 1F30 Cardiff-Portsmouth route are all reduced to a single 2car 158 today.