GWR Settlement Offer Advice

[TG12399]

Hi all, hope you're all good. I know this is a topic that's come up a couple of times before but I couldn't find one completely relevant to my case.

Quick summary: my girlfriend and I did a return journey from London to Bristol in December. She'd always had a railcard (I don't have one), and I booked the tickets thinking she still had one so added the discount. It wasn't until we got off the train back in London that we got stopped by a GWR person and I realised her railcard had expired. We went through the usual process and have now had a pre-court settlement offer come through.

Two questions:
1. The amount of money we are being quoted which is the outstanding fee, is more expensive than both of our return tickets. Is this because they are applying the maximum possible fare from Bristol > London, and is this worth us disputing/querying?
2. Is it worth me emailing to explain the situation as I have done above? I have lots of train journeys from this period of time where I haven't applied a railcard discount (because I don't have one), and my girlfriend has tickets showing that she didn't apply her discount when her railcard had (unbeknownst to me) expired. She has also since bought a new railcard.

Basically, is it worth me trying to explain why this completely genuinely honest (if quite stupid) mistake was made, or not worth it and just pay the penalty? Thank you!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all, hope you're all good. I know this is a topic that's come up a couple of times before but I couldn't find one completely relevant to my case.

Quick summary: my girlfriend and I did a return journey from London to Bristol in December. She'd always had a railcard (I don't have one), and I booked the tickets thinking she still had one so added the discount. It wasn't until we got off the train back in London that we got stopped by a GWR person and I realised her railcard had expired. We went through the usual process and have now had a pre-court settlement offer come through.

Two questions:
1. The amount of money we are being quoted which is the outstanding fee, is more expensive than both of our return tickets. Is this because they are applying the maximum possible fare from Bristol > London, and is this worth us disputing/querying?
2. Is it worth me emailing to explain the situation as I have done above? I have lots of train journeys from this period of time where I haven't applied a railcard discount (because I don't have one), and my girlfriend has tickets showing that she didn't apply her discount when her railcard had (unbeknownst to me) expired. She has also since bought a new railcard.

Basically, is it worth me trying to explain why this completely genuinely honest (if quite stupid) mistake was made, or not worth it and just pay the penalty? Thank you!

Hi - and welcome - GWR have a reputation on here for being generally 'reasonable' about dealing with fare problems - but it might be easier for us to comment if you can break down what they are asking for.

In general terms the railway considers a ticket bought when the Railcard has expired (or not possessed at all) as having no validity - and thus must be replaced by anew ticket. They also tend to ask for the full 'Anytime' price in terms of a replacement (I suspect as much as anything this is to create an element of the punitive about it - to prevent you doing it again intentionally or by mistake), as well as making sure you have a reason to buy a ticket and don't juts have to pay the same discounted price in the event of actually getting checked on your journey - which as you know does not always happen, so people would 'chance it'

An Anytime Day Single Bristol to London looks like £126.40 - is this the sort of sum that they are asking for?

On top of this there is usually an 'admin fee' to recover the costs of investigating what you have done (these seem to run at about £100 to £150)

The problem is for you that they can now legitimately prosecute you for what you did even if it was a genuine mistake as opposed to a deliberate attempt at fare evasion. If you do not pay what they are asking they might do this - which will cost you more than I assume they are asking for now. It also comes with a criminal record which it is worth a lot to avoid getting - and they would win the case because you were travelling without a valid ticket in the eyes of the law.

So the scope to try and negotiate down what they are asking for is not great / possibly non existent IMHO

I realise this is all bad luck and my reply is probably not going to help very much.

You can have a read of the pdf of the Revenue Protection Policy on the GWR website if more info from them might help.

 

[island]

They will usually calculate the unpaid fare based on the anytime price with no credit for what you have already paid.

The amount quoted to you will be under the assumption that a mistake was made as opposed to intentional fare evasion. Can you confirm the exact amount asked for?

You run the risk that if you attempt to query/argue the amount, that the settlement offer will be cancelled and prosecution taken.

 

[TG12399]

Thank you both - this is good advice, and what I sadly suspected. The amount they are asking is £295.85, made up of £205.85 for the outstanding fare and their charges

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you both - this is good advice, and what I sadly suspected. The amount they are asking is £295.85, made up of £205.85 for the outstanding fare and their charges

So can you work out what the £205.85 is for the outstanding fare? Unless I have made a mistake this seems much higher than the Anytime Day Single fare that I believe is £126.40 Adult Anytime Single Std Class London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads

Is this £205.85 for 1 person, or both of you?

 

[TG12399]

So can you work out what the £205.85 is for the outstanding fare? Unless I have made a mistake this seems much higher than the Anytime Day Single fare that I believe is £126.40 Adult Anytime Single Std Class London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads

Is this £205.85 for 1 person, or both of you?

This is only for one of us, as only one of us erroneously had a railcard discount on our ticket. It was on 9 December so maybe the rates were much higher that day in the Christmas rush for whatever reason? But yeah I would have expected it to be around £120 max - the actual ticket of course was only about £40 but I didn't expect them to be nice enough to charge the lower rate.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is only for one of us, as only one of us erroneously had a railcard discount on our ticket. It was on 9 December so maybe the rates were much higher that day in the Christmas rush for whatever reason? But yeah I would have expected it to be around £120 max - the actual ticket of course was only about £40 but I didn't expect them to be nice enough to charge the lower rate.

Thanks - no - that is the maximum fare you could have been asked for as I understand it (the Anytime is the fare that is peak price for use on any train - it's not a demand responsive fare like an 'Advance' ticket - this would include using it if you walked up the station in the morning peak on a weekday and bought a ticket 5 mins before boarding the train).

Every other ticket (eg branded Off Peak / Advance etc) is a discounted ticket with varying levels / types of restrictions on use and would never be more expensive than an 'Anytime' fare.

Was the ticket actually to a destination beyond London or for a journey commencing before Bristol by any chance?

Or was it a Rtn ticket and you were using the return portion (having used the outward portion already with the Railcard discount applied but the Railcard not valid on that date either, but not detected on that journey?)

An Anytime Return Fare is £252.80

all the fares are listed here fwiw (but this will probably not help you very much given the complexity of the fares system....note it includes 1st class prices)

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

So the question to GWR would be why they are asking for an outstanding fare owed of a sum more expensive than the Anytime price. But the risk of them withdrawing the offer and prosecuting still remains if you try to debate this with them. However, you could pay the settlement and then ask them that after. But you would need to be sure of your facts. However, experts on this forum can help with such accuracy.

 

[TG12399]

Thanks - no - that is the maximum fare you could have been asked for as I understand it (the Anytime is the fare that is peak price for use on any train - it's not a demand responsive fare like an 'Advance' ticket - this would include using it if you walked up the station in the morning peak on a weekday and bought a ticket 5 mins before boarding the train).

Every other ticket (eg branded Off Peak / Advance etc) is a discounted ticket with varying levels / types of restrictions on use and would never be more expensive than an 'Anytime' fare.

Was the ticket actually to a destination beyond London or for a journey commencing before Bristol by any chance?

Or was it a Rtn ticket and you were using the return portion (having used the outward portion already with the Railcard discount applied but the Railcard not valid on that date either, but not detected on that journey?)

An Anytime Return Fare is £252.80

all the fares are listed here fwiw (but this will probably not help you very much given the complexity of the fares system....note it includes 1st class prices)

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

So the question to GWR would be why they are asking for an outstanding fare owed of a sum more expensive than the Anytime price. But the risk of them withdrawing the offer and prosecuting still remains if you try to debate this with them. However, you could pay the settlement and then ask them that after. But you would need to be sure of your facts. However, experts on this forum can help with such accuracy.

Thank you very much for such a detailed reply, really appreciate it.

Ok so what I think it must be is that it was a return ticket and they're charging us for both legs of the journey, which I suppose it at least fair on a logical level. That must explain it

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you very much for such a detailed reply, really appreciate it.

Ok so what I think it must be is that it was a return ticket and they're charging us for both legs of the journey, which I suppose it at least fair on a logical level. That must explain it

It could be - tho if it was the outward bound bit of a return journey when you were stopped, my view would be that before you took the return journey and used that portion you should have been given the opportunity to 'make the ticket correct' which in this case would be to renew / buy a new Railcard before commencing the return journey, or if you did not wish to do that, but a new undiscounted ticket at the cheapest price available o you before boarding the return train (and indeed seeking any refund that may be possible to claim for the unused part of the ticket you would no longer use).

If you have time to wait before responding to their letter / paying what they are asking deadline, it may be worth keeping an eye on this thread for eg 24 hours to see if other forum members have useful comments to make on the sum they are asking you to pay.

 

[TG12399]

Thanks - I have two weeks to respond so I will do that! Thanks a lot for all your help, really appreciate it

 

[father_jack]

A SSR (Super Off Peak Return) Paddington to Bristol TM with a 34% railcard discount is £46.95 which equates with a £252.80 SOR (Anytime Return) with that removed so credit has been given for the ticket held. I suppose the SOR could have been charged as the penalty and the SSR refunded some way but it gets the same result.

 

[WesternLancer]

A SSR (Super Off Peak Return) Paddington to Bristol TM with a 34% railcard discount is £46.95 which equates with a £252.80 SOR (Anytime Return) with that removed so credit has been given for the ticket held. I suppose the SOR could have been charged as the penalty and the SSR refunded some way but it gets the same result.

Thanks - that's helpful calculation - should help the OP see what has happened in terms of the sum asked for.

It's v bad luck - depending on where you got your Railcard from originally the retailers seem hit and miss over sending out reminders when they expire, and lots of cases on here with people who say their ticket retailer continues to apply the discount without adequate checking that Railcard is still valid etc.

Only advice on that is to be sure to set your own calendar alert for Railcard expiry date in future to avoid this problem. If it is not a short journey the replacement ticket can be a hefty financial sum.

 

[Rajesh Krishna]

Hello @TG12399

Could you tell me how long did they take to send the letter to you as my situation is also probably same as yours

I had been interviewed under caution on 31st december 2023 in paddington and gwr ticket inspector told me that i will receive a letter within 2 weeks. However, its been a month but not received any letter so far.

Iam sure i gave them right address.

 

[Elecman]

Hello @TG12399

Could you tell me how long did they take to send the letter to you as my situation is also probably same as yours

I had been interviewed under caution on 31st december 2023 in paddington and gwr ticket inspector told me that i will receive a letter within 2 weeks. However, its been a month but not received any letter so far.

Iam sure i gave them right address.

Please start your own thread as no 2 cases are the same and the Forum members can give you the best advise based on your particular circumstances