GWR Prosecution

[Bt18]

Today I was travelling from Aldermaston to Castle Cary. I have a young persons railcard but in my hurry to purchase a ticket before my train departed I clicked the jobseekers discount on the app, so although I had the wrong discount, I did still have a ticket. I was stopped on my journey by the conductor and explained the above to him and he said he was going to report me to the prosecution team. He took my details, issued me with a caution and questioned me regarding the matter - where am I travelling to/from, are the ticket details he took correct, was I aware that a jobseekers discount is bigger than a young persons (no) and did I intend to avoid a higher fare (no) was I aware that the correct cost of my ticket was more than I’ve paid (no). There was another question that he asked me that I can’t remember now, but I know I answered yes to.

I have previously had to pay a penalty fare for travelling without a ticket - stupid I know!

I was just wondering on what the next steps are, I don’t want to go to court, but is there a high chance of this.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Today I was travelling from Aldermaston to Castle Cary. I have a young persons railcard but in my hurry to purchase a ticket before my train departed I clicked the jobseekers discount on the app, so although I had the wrong discount, I did still have a ticket. I was stopped on my journey by the conductor and explained the above to him and he said he was going to report me to the prosecution team. He took my details, issued me with a caution and questioned me regarding the matter - where am I travelling to/from, are the ticket details he took correct, was I aware that a jobseekers discount is bigger than a young persons (no) and did I intend to avoid a higher fare (no) was I aware that the correct cost of my ticket was more than I’ve paid (no). There was another question that he asked me that I can’t remember now, but I know I answered yes to.

I have previously had to pay a penalty fare for travelling without a ticket - stupid I know!

I was just wondering on what the next steps are, I don’t want to go to court, but is there a high chance of this.

Can I ask one question - National Rail Enquiries shows that Aldermaston doesn't have any ticketing facilities and GWR's website seems to back this up. Is this still up-to-date and accurate (I know a number of stations have had ticketing facilities installed since the "audit" that informs the results of what at least NRE has to say)?

 

[cuccir]

Well, the train company will probably write to you within the next 3 months. Their letter will likely ask you for your account of what happened on the day.

Based on your post here, they will probably be able to prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws if they want to. For a succesful Byelaws prosecution, they just need to show that you had not paid the right fare, regardless of intention (think of it like speeding in a car - doing 40 in a 30 is illegal, even if you hadn't noticed your speed). The good news is that a Byelaws prosecution is considered 'spent' immediately - that is, you don't have to declare it when asked about unspent convictions (eg applying for a job, getting insurance, applying for a mortgage, etc). It also dosen't appear on standard DBS checks, but could come up on the enhanced version used in some jobs

The questions you were asked are designed to see if you might be guilty of the more serious offences under the Regulations of the Railways Act. Under this law, you're guilty if you intend to avoid your fare. That you answered 'no' to these questions is good for you, as it shows that you did not intend to avoid your fare - you just made a mistake, as you said.

If you want to avoid court, the best route will to be to write a short and apologetic response, similar to your post here, which doesn't seek to deflect any of the blame. Note that you'd like to avoid court, and would be happy to reimburse GWR for the fare owed + any costs incurred in investigating the case.

The previous penalty fare reduces the liklihood of them taking up this offer from you, but it's not impossible that they will. If they do, you'd be expected to pay them the fare owed plus costs that they determine, but there is no legal action.

 

[Bt18]

I’d also like to add that I told the conductor that it was an honest mistake but he didn’t believe me, I was more than happy to pay there and then to just sort it out but he told me he wanted to take it further.

Today I was travelling from Aldermaston to Castle Cary. I have a young persons railcard but in my hurry to purchase a ticket before my train departed I clicked the jobseekers discount on the app, so although I had the wrong discount, I did still have a ticket. I was stopped on my journey by the conductor and explained the above to him and he said he was going to report me to the prosecution team. He took my details, issued me with a caution and questioned me regarding the matter - where am I travelling to/from, are the ticket details he took correct, was I aware that a jobseekers discount is bigger than a young persons (no) and did I intend to avoid a higher fare (no) was I aware that the correct cost of my ticket was more than I’ve paid (no). There was another question that he asked me that I can’t remember now, but I know I answered yes to.

I have previously had to pay a penalty fare for travelling without a ticket - stupid I know!

I was just wondering on what the next steps are, I don’t want to go to court, but is there a high chance of this.

 

[Bt18]

Can I ask one question - National Rail Enquiries shows that Aldermaston doesn't have any ticketing facilities and GWR's website seems to back this up. Is this still up-to-date and accurate (I know a number of stations have had ticketing facilities installed since the "audit" that informs the results of what at least NRE has to say)?

It doesn’t have ticketing facilities, I was doing it on my phone in a rush!

 

[Bt18]

Well, the train company will probably write to you within the next 3 months. Their letter will likely ask you for your account of what happened on the day.

Based on your post here, they will probably be able to prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws if they want to. For a succesful Byelaws prosecution, they just need to show that you had not paid the right fare, regardless of intention (think of it like speeding in a car - doing 40 in a 30 is illegal, even if you hadn't noticed your speed). The good news is that a Byelaws prosecution is considered 'spent' immediately - that is, you don't have to declare it when asked about unspent convictions (eg applying for a job, getting insurance, applying for a mortgage, etc). It also dosen't appear on standard DBS checks, but could come up on the enhanced version used in some jobs

The questions you were asked are designed to see if you might be guilty of the more serious offences under the Regulations of the Railways Act. Under this law, you're guilty if you intend to avoid your fare. That you answered 'no' to these questions is good for you, as it shows that you did not intend to avoid your fare - you just made a mistake, as you said.

If you want to avoid court, the best route will to be to write a short and apologetic response, similar to your post here, which doesn't seek to deflect any of the blame. Note that you'd like to avoid court, and would be happy to reimburse GWR for the fare owed + any costs incurred in investigating the case.

The previous penalty fare reduces the liklihood of them taking up this offer from you, but it's not impossible that they will. If they do, you'd be expected to pay them the fare owed plus costs that they determine, but there is no legal action.

Today I was travelling from Aldermaston to Castle Cary. I have a young persons railcard but in my hurry to purchase a ticket before my train departed I clicked the jobseekers discount on the app, so although I had the wrong discount, I did still have a ticket. I was stopped on my journey by the conductor and explained the above to him and he said he was going to report me to the prosecution team. He took my details, issued me with a caution and questioned me regarding the matter - where am I travelling to/from, are the ticket details he took correct, was I aware that a jobseekers discount is bigger than a young persons (no) and did I intend to avoid a higher fare (no) was I aware that the correct cost of my ticket was more than I’ve paid (no). There was another question that he asked me that I can’t remember now, but I know I answered yes to.

I have previously had to pay a penalty fare for travelling without a ticket - stupid I know!

I was just wondering on what the next steps are, I don’t want to go to court, but is there a high chance of this.

I’ve looked on there prosecution document and it says that they try to avoid taking people to court, so I’m hoping that they will let me settle the fare and any additional costs.

 

[cuccir]

I’d also like to add that I told the conductor that it was an honest mistake but he didn’t believe me, I was more than happy to pay there and then to just sort it out but he told me he wanted to take it further.

To be frank - why should he take you at your word? And he wasn't saying that you were lying; he was just deciding to pass your case on for further invesitgation.

GWR are more likely than most to settle out of court, but having the previous penalty fare will reduce the chance - but it is still a reasonable one.

 

[Bt18]

To be frank - why should he take you at your word? And he wasn't saying that you were lying; he was just deciding to pass your case on for further invesitgation.

GWR are more likely than most to settle out of court, but having the previous penalty fare will reduce the chance - but it is still a reasonable one.

I completely agree, if they trusted everyone then they would never settle any of the issues they face as a business.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It doesn’t have ticketing facilities, I was doing it on my phone in a rush!

Based off this alone, you cannot be found guilty of any Byelaw offence - it is not an offence to fail to present a ticket, or to present an invalid ticket, if there are no ticketing facilities at your boarding station.

The only relevant offence which they can prosecute in these circumstance would be the more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence, under Section 5(3)(a) thereof. This does, unfortunately, carry a criminal record upon conviction.

A Section 5(3)(a) offence is made out if you travel without previously having paid your fare (this applies here, regardless of whether or not there are the facilities to obtain a ticket), and have intent to avoid payment of the correct fare. Clearly, any prosecution will hinge on whether or not purchasing a ticket, but one that is not valid, constitutes intent to avoid payment of the correct fare.

I think that is something that is highly circumstance dependent, and it will depend on the exact evidence as to what the RPI noted down. I think this is an area where the advice of a criminal law solicitor would be highly appropriate. The Law Society's website contains a search tool for local criminal law solicitors.

GWR's prosecutions policy sets out their general 'modus operandi', but they are by no means bound by it, so please don't be surprised if they don't uphold it.

 

[Bt18]

Based off this alone, you cannot be found guilty of any Byelaw offence - it is not an offence to fail to present a ticket, or to present an invalid ticket, if there are no ticketing facilities at your boarding station.

The only relevant offence which they can prosecute in these circumstance would be the more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence, under Section 5(3)(a) thereof. This does, unfortunately, carry a criminal record upon conviction.

A Section 5(3)(a) offence is made out if you travel without previously having paid your fare (this applies here, regardless of whether or not there are the facilities to obtain a ticket), and have intent to avoid payment of the correct fare. Clearly, any prosecution will hinge on whether or not purchasing a ticket, but one that is not valid, constitutes intent to avoid payment of the correct fare.

I think that is something that is highly circumstance dependent, and it will depend on the exact evidence as to what the RPI noted down. I think this is an area where the advice of a criminal law solicitor would be highly appropriate.

GWR's prosecutions policy sets out their general conduct, but they are by no means bound by it so please do not be shocked if they don't uphold it.

Okay thank you very much, as I had purchased a ticket (but with the wrong discount) does this mean that they can prosecute on this? Sorry this isn’t all very new to me and I don’t really understand how the system works.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Okay thank you very much, as I had purchased a ticket (but with the wrong discount) does this mean that they can prosecute on this? Sorry this isn’t all very new to me and I don’t really understand how the system works.

As stated, this means that they could prosecute under Section 5(3)(a) of the Act I linked. Whether or not they would succeed (if you pleaded "not guilty") would be highly dependent on the evidence and the circumstances, and therefore I would recommend at the very least an initial consultation with a criminal law solicitor (these are usually free or inexpensive), to get an idea of what the best way forward is.

 

[Bt18]

As stated, this means that they could prosecute under Section 5(3)(a) of the Act I linked. Whether or not they would succeed (if you pleaded "not guilty") would be highly dependent on the evidence and the circumstances, and therefore I would recommend at the very least an initial consultation with a criminal law solicitor (these are usually free or inexpensive), to get an idea of what the best way forward is.

thank you for your advice, I would like to avoid court at all costs as I am studying a course at university that requires an enhanced DBS check and therefore do not want anything to show on that.

 

[Bt18]

Well, the train company will probably write to you within the next 3 months. Their letter will likely ask you for your account of what happened on the day.

Based on your post here, they will probably be able to prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws if they want to. For a succesful Byelaws prosecution, they just need to show that you had not paid the right fare, regardless of intention (think of it like speeding in a car - doing 40 in a 30 is illegal, even if you hadn't noticed your speed). The good news is that a Byelaws prosecution is considered 'spent' immediately - that is, you don't have to declare it when asked about unspent convictions (eg applying for a job, getting insurance, applying for a mortgage, etc). It also dosen't appear on standard DBS checks, but could come up on the enhanced version used in some jobs

The questions you were asked are designed to see if you might be guilty of the more serious offences under the Regulations of the Railways Act. Under this law, you're guilty if you intend to avoid your fare. That you answered 'no' to these questions is good for you, as it shows that you did not intend to avoid your fare - you just made a mistake, as you said.

If you want to avoid court, the best route will to be to write a short and apologetic response, similar to your post here, which doesn't seek to deflect any of the blame. Note that you'd like to avoid court, and would be happy to reimburse GWR for the fare owed + any costs incurred in investigating the case.

The previous penalty fare reduces the liklihood of them taking up this offer from you, but it's not impossible that they will. If they do, you'd be expected to pay them the fare owed plus costs that they determine, but there is no legal action.

cuccir, following your recommendation to write a letter to them, when would you suggest I do that? Seeing as they may not have the information passed on immediately is there much point in doing it now, or do you think I should send a letter regardless of that, expressing my apologies, as it will show that I am sorry for what happened and would like to settle it quickly for both myself and the company?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

cuccir, following your recommendation to write a letter to them, when would you suggest I do that? Seeing as they may not have the information passed on immediately is there much point in doing it now, or do you think I should send a letter regardless of that, expressing my apologies, as it will show that I am sorry for what happened and would like to settle it quickly for both myself and the company?

As stated, if you wish to avoid a conviction then you need to be very careful about what you say. If a conviction is as detrimental as you imply, legal advice is essential.

 

[gray1404]

As you boarded at a station with no ticket selling facilities, I don't see how you can be guilty of the byelaw offance. Did you make the person inspecting tickers aware of the error as soon as you came into contact with them? Or was it them who brought it up.

 

[furlong]

Consider exactly when you realised you had the wrong discount and - at that point in time (and at all relevant times later) - what a court might consider an honest person who intended to pay the correct fare would have done and compare that against what you actually did. Would the company have any evidence that could prove that at any point in time you intended not to pay the correct fare? How obvious was your mistake in the app? Is it a journey you make regularly for which you would be expected to know the correct fare and notice the amount charged was wrong?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If a conviction is as detrimental as you imply, legal advice is essential.

... but not yet.

It's still quite possible that GWR will accept that you made a mistake, and settle for the fare and costs (which will be something like £100 in total). So wait to see what they say when they write to you. On the basis of other cases that we have seen on this forum, that will be a letter saying that they are considering prosecution, and asking if there is any further information you want to give them.

That's the point where you need to write back to them, explaining the facts as you understand them, explaining that you now understand that it is your responsibility to check that you have the right ticket, apologising for your mistake and offering to pay the correct fare and costs that GWR will have incurred (that's the £100 or so that I talked about earlier).

This is also the first point when it might be sensible to talk to a solicitor - I hope that others will be along shortly to advise if I am right on this timing. Don't worry too much about the cost of this: quite a lot of solicitors will offer a half-hour free consultation, and you may be able to do better through your student union. If your course is something where you are already working, you may be a member of a trade union (for example, if you are a student nurse you may already have signed up to the RCN or Unison) and that may also entitle you to free legal representation. Ask your union rep or look at the members' section of your union's website.

One last point: if everything goes as badly as possible, and you do end up with a conviction, this needn't be the end of your training. Let your university / employer know, and be prepared for a difficult discussion, but you may well be allowed to continue. A lot of organisations recognise that people make occasional errors of judgement, and will accept a conviction for not paying the right fare as one of those. But not telling them about your conviction is a second error of judgement, and begins to look like a pattern of behaviour where you don't do the right thing, and then try to cover it up. That's a much bigger problem, so it's better to be honest up front.

 

[Bt18]

... but not yet.

It's still quite possible that GWR will accept that you made a mistake, and settle for the fare and costs (which will be something like £100 in total). So wait to see what they say when they write to you. On the basis of what we see here, that will be a letter saying that they are considering prosecution, and asking if there is any further information you want to give them.

That's the point where you need to write back to them, explaining the facts as you understand them, explaining that you now understand that it is your responsibility to check that you have the right ticket, apologising for your mistake and offering to pay the correct fare and costs that GWR will have incurred (that's the £100 or so that I talked about earlier).

This is also the first point when it might be sensible to talk to a solicitor - I hope that others will be along shortly to advise if I am right on this timing. Don't worry too much about the cost of this: quite a lot of solicitors will offer a half-hour free consultation, and you may be able to do better through your student union. If your course is something where you are already working, you may be a member of a trade union (for example, if you are a student nurse you may already have signed up to the RCN or Unison) and that may also entitle you to free legal representation. Ask your union rep or look at the members' section of your union's website.

One last point: if everything goes as badly as possible, and you do end up with a conviction, this needn't be the end of your training. Let your university / employer know, and be prepared for a difficult discussion, but you may well be allowed to continue. A lot of organisations recognise that people make occasional errors of judgement, and will accept a conviction for not paying the right fare as one of those. But not telling them about your conviction is a second error of judgement, and begins to look like a pattern of behaviour where you don't do the right thing, and then try to cover it up. That's a much bigger problem, so it's better to be honest up front.

Thank you so much Fawkes Cat, this has reassured me immensely. I assume I can take a cope of the letter GWR send me and a draft of what I plan to reply to the solicitors and they can advise me on whether what I have written incriminates me or not and how to go about replying to GWR?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

... but not yet.

It's still quite possible that GWR will accept that you made a mistake, and settle for the fare and costs (which will be something like £100 in total). So wait to see what they say when they write to you. On the basis of other cases that we have seen on this forum, that will be a letter saying that they are considering prosecution, and asking if there is any further information you want to give them.

That's the point where you need to write back to them, explaining the facts as you understand them, explaining that you now understand that it is your responsibility to check that you have the right ticket, apologising for your mistake and offering to pay the correct fare and costs that GWR will have incurred (that's the £100 or so that I talked about earlier).

This is also the first point when it might be sensible to talk to a solicitor - I hope that others will be along shortly to advise if I am right on this timing. Don't worry too much about the cost of this: quite a lot of solicitors will offer a half-hour free consultation, and you may be able to do better through your student union. If your course is something where you are already working, you may be a member of a trade union (for example, if you are a student nurse you may already have signed up to the RCN or Unison) and that may also entitle you to free legal representation. Ask your union rep or look at the members' section of your union's website.

One last point: if everything goes as badly as possible, and you do end up with a conviction, this needn't be the end of your training. Let your university / employer know, and be prepared for a difficult discussion, but you may well be allowed to continue. A lot of organisations recognise that people make occasional errors of judgement, and will accept a conviction for not paying the right fare as one of those. But not telling them about your conviction is a second error of judgement, and begins to look like a pattern of behaviour where you don't do the right thing, and then try to cover it up. That's a much bigger problem, so it's better to be honest up front.

No, the reason I suggest taking legal advice before writing anything is that a poorly or unfortunately worded response could suffice as an admission of guilt (at least, for the Magistrates). You need to be very careful about that kind of thing.

 

[gray1404]

I think we need to know exactly what happened on board and the course of events in the conversation. It could be that the member of staff was wrong to report the matter if the OP boarded at a station with no ticket selling facilities and only upon boarding was the OPs first opportunity to purchase.

If the OP realised their mistake and made the staff aware of this to try to correct it then they shouldn't have been reported.

 

[cuccir]

cuccir, following your recommendation to write a letter to them, when would you suggest I do that? Seeing as they may not have the information passed on immediately is there much point in doing it now, or do you think I should send a letter regardless of that, expressing my apologies, as it will show that I am sorry for what happened and would like to settle it quickly for both myself and the company?

I should point out that ForTheLoveOf's question and my own post were posted more or less simultaneously, so I had not seen that or your answer too that there were not ticket buying facilities at Aldermaston.

As has been said, you shouldn't be found guilty of the Bylaws offence if you boarded at a station without ticket buying facilities.

So this probably leaves GWR with the option of Regulations of the Railways, for which they would have to prove you intended to avoid a fare. The answers you gave in the first post would help you in that regards, but are not the be all and end all. If/When you get the letter, I'd still recommend replying with a short and factual statement, similar to your opening post here, stating that you selected the wrong discount on the app by mistake. You should still offer to pay the fare owed. Do keep it short and factual, because essentially they're looking to establish your guilt on intent and the more you say, the more likely you are to accidentally give the impression you intended to avoid your fare.

It could be that the member of staff was wrong to report the matter if the OP boarded at a station with no ticket selling facilities and only upon boarding was the OPs first opportunity to purchase.

Regardless of the fact that Bt18 had boarded at a station without ticket buying facilities, he had purchased a ticket which was less than the value of his own; so the ticket inspector would still be in their right to decide to investigate if this was a case of attempting to deliberately avoid a fare.

 

[Bt18]

So I got to Aldermaston (which I didn't know doesn’t have ticketing facilities), I had about 5 minutes before the train I needed to catch arrived so I downloaded the Trainline app -I’m young but not a frequent rail user and I buy my tickets at the machines. I signed up and put in my details to book a ticket from Aldermaston to Castle Cary. When looking for the 16-25 card, I couldn't see it so in my haste and trying to get a ticket before I got on the train (to avoid having to pay a penalty fare for not having a ticket like I had to do before), I panicked, clicked on jobseekers discount (I overlooked the 16-25 option which I now know is at the very top - you know what its like when you're in a rush!) and got on the train.

Made my way to reading where I had to change, got on my next train and was approached by the ticket manager (the same guy that had written me up for a penalty fare in February, after I lost a ticket, so I can understand why he was dubious). He pointed out that I had used a jobseekers discount, and said something along the lines of "trying to fare dodge again?" I explained, "no I'm not, I've got a ticket, but it's got the wrong discount on it as I was worried about not having a ticket at all", and I asked him if it were possible for me to just buy a new one from him with the railcard that I have got. He refused and said that he was going to write me up for a report for prosecution. I said, "look I'm really sorry, it was an error, I was in a rush and thought it was better to have a ticket of some kind than none". He took my details, issued me with a caution and questioned me regarding the matter - where am I travelling to/from (Aldermaston to Castle Cary), are the ticket details he took correct (yes), was I aware that a jobseekers discount is bigger than a young persons (no), did I intend to avoid a higher fare (no), was I aware that the correct cost of my ticket was more than I’ve paid (no), is it fair to say that if he hadn’t stopped me then I would have travelled the route on a cheaper ticket than I qualified for (actually yes, that is fair to say).

I pointed out to him that I wasn't aware that there was a difference in price/discount between a jobseekers discount and a young persons discount, I thought they were all the same, just that you had to provide proof of having a discount card of some sort. I also politely said to him that as I have a valid young persons card, it would be daft of me not to use it, seeing as my parents have already paid for it to try and help me out while at uni.

I don't really know if what I did warranted a report for prosecution as I did say there and then that I was happy for pay for a new ticket, although I can understand that clicking to say I had a jobseekers card was the wrong thing to do, as I now know it has a higher discount rate. To be honest, I know that I mucked up, but it was an honest mistake, however like Cuccir said - why should they take my word for it. I would just like to settle the matter out of court and be done with it. Safe to say I'll stick to ticket machines!!

 

[Bt18]

I should point out that ForTheLoveOf's question and my own post were posted more or less simultaneously, so I had not seen that or your answer too that there were not ticket buying facilities at Aldermaston.

As has been said, you shouldn't be found guilty of the Bylaws offence if you boarded at a station without ticket buying facilities.

So this probably leaves GWR with the option of Regulations of the Railways, for which they would have to prove you intended to avoid a fare. The answers you gave in the first post would help you in that regards, but are not the be all and end all. If/When you get the letter, I'd still recommend replying with a short and factual statement, similar to your opening post here, stating that you selected the wrong discount on the app by mistake. You should still offer to pay the fare owed. Do keep it short and factual, because essentially they're looking to establish your guilt on intent and the more you say, the more likely you are to accidentally give the impression you intended to avoid your fare.



Regardless of the fact that Bt18 had boarded at a station without ticket buying facilities, he had purchased a ticket which was less than the value of his own; so the ticket inspector would still be in their right to decide to investigate if this was a case of attempting to deliberately avoid a fare.

In hindsight I should have just paid the full fare rather than dither around trying to use my discount and then I would have avoided all of this .

 

[cuccir]

Thanks, the full story helps. It's understandable I think that if he recognized you has having previously received a Penalty Fare, he would want this to be passed on for investigation. From your story, the only thing I'd add to to your letter that wasn't included in your first post is that it was your first time using the app; it helps give credence I think to your claim that this was an error.

In hindsight I should have just paid the full fare rather than dither around trying to use my discount and then I would have avoided all of this .

The best option, I'd suggest, when boarding at a station without a ticket office, is to not bother with online/mobile ticketing. You can buy on board, or when changing trains, or on board your second train, whenever your first opportunity arises.

 

[Bt18]

Thanks, the full story helps. It's understandable I think that if he recognized you has having previously received a Penalty Fare, he would want this to be passed on for investigation. From your story, the only thing I'd add to to your letter that wasn't included in your first post is that it was your first time using the app; it helps give credence I think to your claim that this was an error.



The best option, I'd suggest, when boarding at a station without a ticket office, is to not bother with online/mobile ticketing. You can buy on board, or when changing trains, or on board your second train, whenever your first opportunity arises.

Yes, I do agree with you, and I can understand why he would do so, it is his job after all.Okay, thank you very much. So if I were to write the letter would you suggest just sending the above account (post #21) which details the entire journey, or condense that down to a more simple account?

Obviously I will seek legal advice as well, but at least I have a rough idea of what I need to convey to the prosecutions team.

 

[Bt18]

Thanks, the full story helps. It's understandable I think that if he recognized you has having previously received a Penalty Fare, he would want this to be passed on for investigation. From your story, the only thing I'd add to to your letter that wasn't included in your first post is that it was your first time using the app; it helps give credence I think to your claim that this was an error.



The best option, I'd suggest, when boarding at a station without a ticket office, is to not bother with online/mobile ticketing. You can buy on board, or when changing trains, or on board your second train, whenever your first opportunity arises.

I will definitely just be buying on board/at next available opportunity!! Or steering clear of train travel as much as possible!

 

[Bt18]

Having looked up the Regulations of Railway Act 1889, I am slightly confused as it states that

"(1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F1level 2 on the standard scale].
(2)If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [F2or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company F3... may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.
(3)If any person—
a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(c)Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,
he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F4level 3 on the standard scale], or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding [F4level 3 on the standard scale], or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding [F5three months]."

I did provide a ticket, just with the wrong discount on, which I offered to pay immediately, I also didn't attempt to travel without paying my fare or with the intent to avoid payment (as said I offered to buy a new ticket with the correct fare), nor did I pay my fare for a certain distance and wilfully proceed beyond that distance, neither did I give a false name or address.

I am not a lawyer and have very little understanding of how situations such as these work. Would anyone be kind enough to explain in layman's terms what they may try to prosecute me for and whether or not they stand a chance at being successful in this?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Having looked up the Regulations of Railway Act 1889, I am slightly confused as it states that

"(1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F1level 2 on the standard scale].
(2)If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses [F2or fails] on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company F3... may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.
(3)If any person—
a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(c)Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,
he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F4level 3 on the standard scale], or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding [F4level 3 on the standard scale], or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding [F5three months]."

I did provide a ticket, just with the wrong discount on, which I offered to pay immediately, I also didn't attempt to travel without paying my fare or with the intent to avoid payment (as said I offered to buy a new ticket with the correct fare), nor did I pay my fare for a certain distance and wilfully proceed beyond that distance, neither did I give a false name or address.

I am not a lawyer and have very little understanding of how situations such as these work. Would anyone be kind enough to explain in layman's terms what they may try to prosecute me for and whether or not they stand a chance at being successful in this?

It is section 3(a) that is the relevant part. You hadn't "previously paid [your] fare" before travelling - paying a fare for which you are not eligible does not count. Therefore it is down to whether or not GWR can prove intent to avoid payment.

If I had to make any kind of judgment on the matter, the fact that you have previously received a Penalty Fare and the fact that you said you wouldn't have paid the correct fare if you hadn't been stopped, will both weigh against the credibility of a defence that you acted honestly. However, in all other respects I think there may certainly be an arguable case.

 

[cuccir]

It is section 3(a) that is the relevant part. You hadn't "previously paid [your] fare" before travelling - paying a fare for which you are not eligible does not count. Therefore it is down to whether or not GWR can prove intent to avoid payment.

Exactly - and what is essentially being contested is the second part of that sentence, "and with intent to avoid payment thereof". There is no disputing you didn't pay the fare owed, but they also need to prove that you intended to avoid your fare, in order to secure a conviction.

Magistrates are of course not mind-readers, and if it was as easy as saying "I didn't intend to avoid my fare" then the law wouldn't really work. So 'intent' is inferred in court from actions and statements, and the questions the magistrate would have to decide is: were your actions and statements consistent with someone who intended to avoid paying their fare for the journey?

 

[Bt18]

Exactly - and what is essentially being contested is the second part of that sentence, "and with intent to avoid payment thereof". There is no disputing you didn't pay the fare owed, but they also need to prove that you intended to avoid your fare, in order to secure a conviction.

Magistrates are of course not mind-readers, so 'intent' is inferred in court from actions and statements. So the questions the magistrate would have to decide is: were your actions and statements consistent with someone who intended to avoid paying their fare for the journey?

Okay, so despite the fact that I offered there and then to pay the fare, they would still try to say that I was trying to avoid it? Sorry for all the questions