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GWR 'Project Churchward'

REVUpminster

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There will be a replacement for all the diesels and it will be a train that is used all over the country just as the 800 from being just GWR and LNER to everywhere. Class 810s being the latest variant. It could keep train makers, hopefully made in Britain, in work for ten years or longer.
 
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SwindonManor

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With the very sad departure of the Castle Class HSTs today (RIP)
It made me wonder
When is the GWR Sprinter exiting service?
Does anyone know?
I'm pretty sure the 158 will last longer than the 150s.
 

Trainman40083

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I seem to recall there are plans to replace many of the Sprinters with a joint Procurement exercise covering three of the train operating companies....GWR was certainly one...
 

Snow1964

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GWR seem to be giving their 150s a big overhaul /refurb, which suggests they have at least 6 more years (and probably nearer 8-12 years)

The 158, 165, 166 fleet all seem to be planned as one big replacement, been lots of talk over last few years, but no actual tender or order so far. Seems replacement new trains are likely sometime around 2030-2033. It is thought any order will include options to cover SWR 159, and Chiltern 165 and 168 too (although no guarantee options will be used)

Not yet clear if 175s will also be replaced as part of a standardisation (guessing around 2032-2034).
 
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devonexpress

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GWR seem to be giving their 150s a big overhaul /refurb, which suggests they have at least 6 more years (and probably nearer 8-12 years)

The 158, 165, 166 fleet all seem to be planned as one big replacement, been lots of talk over last few years, but no actual tender or order so far. Seems replacement new trains are likely sometime around 2030-2033. It is thought any order will include options to cover SWR 159, and Chiltern 165 and 168 too (although no guarantee options will be used)

Not yet clear if 175s will also be replaced as part of a standardisation (guessing around 2032-2034).
Mark Hopwood has already confirmed to RailMagazine that the 150s are receiving their last C6 exams to keep them going until 2030 ish. The plan is for the entire regional dmu of 150/158/165/166 and 175s fleet to be replaced in one go, probably will Class 196s or something similar. The 175s are just there as a stop gap on a short term lease of 5 years I believe.
 

MarkyT

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Mark Hopwood has already confirmed to RailMagazine that the 150s are receiving their last C6 exams to keep them going until 2030 ish. The plan is for the entire regional dmu of 150/158/165/166 and 175s fleet to be replaced in one go, probably will Class 196s or something similar. The 175s are just there as a stop gap on a short term lease of 5 years I believe.
I think we'll be looking at new bodyshells from any manufacturer other than Stadler, designed to better match the standard UK 3ft platform height. Yes, I know platforms don't all comply with that exactly today, but many do, and raising those that don't eventually to 915mm rather than 1100+mm is more practical. Until that is complete, a lower floor train offers a smaller vertical step up from a substandard platform than a traditional floor height one. Moving gap fillers steps are also fairly likely, which can often solve unavoidable horizontal gaps in platforms alongside tightly curved track.
 

3RDGEN

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Mark Hopwood has already confirmed to RailMagazine that the 150s are receiving their last C6 exams to keep them going until 2030 ish. The plan is for the entire regional dmu of 150/158/165/166 and 175s fleet to be replaced in one go, probably will Class 196s or something similar. The 175s are just there as a stop gap on a short term lease of 5 years I believe.
GWR signed an eight year Technical Support and Parts Supply contract with Alstom for the 175's so that suggests 2033 at the least, the 175's have a 35 year life minimum so that would give 2035ish.

"https://www.alstom.com/press-releas...uk-support-gwr-class-175-fleet-reintroduction" -

"21 August 2025 – Alstom, has signed a Technical Support and Spares Supply Agreement (TSSSA) with Great Western Railway (GWR) to assist the introduction of 26 Class 175 trains into service across the South West England.

Under the eight-year agreement, valued at approximately £75 million, Alstom will deliver ongoing maintenance support from GWR’s Laira depot in Plymouth."
 

Russel

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GWR seem to be giving their 150s a big overhaul /refurb, which suggests they have at least 6 more years (and probably nearer 8-12 years)

The 158, 165, 166 fleet all seem to be planned as one big replacement, been lots of talk over last few years, but no actual tender or order so far. Seems replacement new trains are likely sometime around 2030-2033. It is thought any order will include options to cover SWR 159, and Chiltern 165 and 168 too (although no guarantee options will be used)

Not yet clear if 175s will also be replaced as part of a standardisation (guessing around 2032-2034).

Regarding the SWR / Chiltern option, we can be sure that option will expire before any decision has been made, resulting in that order costing more than it needs to.
 

Snow1964

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Regarding the SWR / Chiltern option, we can be sure that option will expire before any decision has been made, resulting in that order costing more than it needs to.
Yes, if it was Europe would be framework style with options covering 10-14 years.

But we all know UK seems to go for lots of smallish non-standard expensive and slow to test and certify orders.
 

Russel

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Yes, if it was Europe would be framework style with options covering 10-14 years.

But we all know UK seems to go for lots of smallish non-standard expensive and slow to test and certify orders.

Oh I fully agree.

But then, this comes down to having a system where no government things long term, only in 5 year blocks.
 

Snow1964

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Been on services in Bristol and Bath area this week at peak times, and lots of people were standing, even with the middle seats of 3 taken.

Clearly they need to lengthen the 3car turbos on some of the local trains to Westbury.

But it got me wondering, if 3car turbos are now struggling to cope on some services, how many vehicles should any new fleet have, 4 or pairs of 3car etc ?
 

The exile

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Been on services in Bristol and Bath area this week at peak times, and lots of people were standing, even with the middle seats of 3 taken.

Clearly they need to lengthen the 3car turbos on some of the local trains to Westbury.
Obviously I don’t know which trains you were on but I would dispute the use of “clearly” - based on daily experience, albeit of only a small selection of services on a few particular flows. Loadings are often very uneven (people were struggling to board the rear coach of the 17.06 Bristol - Weymouth at Temple Meads yesterday, but there was no oroblem getting a seat in the front coach) and tend to be for short periods. What is a problem is when a 2 car unit turns up on a peak run, but even then, I’ve never witnessed people unable to board. Not going to object if more carriages are on offer, though, especially if it means an end to “more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time”.
 

Invincible

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Mark Hopwood has already confirmed to RailMagazine that the 150s are receiving their last C6 exams to keep them going until 2030 ish. The plan is for the entire regional dmu of 150/158/165/166 and 175s fleet to be replaced in one go, probably will Class 196s or something similar. The 175s are just there as a stop gap on a short term lease of 5 years I believe.
Wasn't the refurbished 769s also planned as a stopgap, releasing 165s and 166s for Bristol, Devon and Cornwall.
But 769s had various problems and GWR took the option to cancel the lease early.
They now have 175s as another stopgap, but rollout will take to the end of 2026, so currently not enough stock?.

No doubt Alstrom, Hitachi, Siemens will offer new battery trains in tenders alongside the 196s?
Stadler will offer trains, but not having a UK assembly plant might work against it?
 
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HamworthyGoods

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Been on services in Bristol and Bath area this week at peak times, and lots of people were standing, even with the middle seats of 3 taken.

Clearly they need to lengthen the 3car turbos on some of the local trains to Westbury.

But it got me wondering, if 3car turbos are now struggling to cope on some services, how many vehicles should any new fleet have, 4 or pairs of 3car etc ?

The railway will become incredibly expensive to operate if we are going to start to provide a seat for everyone for short commuting hops.
 

Snow1964

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Obviously I don’t know which trains you were on but I would dispute the use of “clearly” - based on daily experience, albeit of only a small selection of services on a few particular flows.
It was 07:03 from Salisbury-Bristol arr 08:24
and 17:01 Severn Beach (17:48 Bristol) to Salisbury
So peak commuter time, but which really needs 4car turbo

Loadings are often very uneven (people were struggling to board the rear coach of the 17.06 Bristol - Weymouth at Temple Meads yesterday, but there was no oroblem getting a seat in the front coach) and tend to be for short periods.
This is more a reflection of some of the odd stopping points for short trains at Bristol, where they are not centered on the stairs, but stop the 3car trains so only one end is near the stairs
What is a problem is when a 2 car unit turns up on a peak run, but even then, I’ve never witnessed people unable to board. Not going to object if more carriages are on offer, though, especially if it means an end to “more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time”.
I didn't say people couldn't board, they could get on and stand (even if it was standing for nearer 30 minutes). I was lucky didn't have to stand more than 20 minutes (and yes we had pointless counted place reservations on these GWR trains, but real numbered seats on XC trains)
 

43096

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The railway will become incredibly expensive to operate if we are going to start to provide a seat for everyone for short commuting hops.
Become? The railway already is incredibly expensive for what it is.
 

The exile

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This is more a reflection of some of the odd stopping points for short trains at Bristol, where they are not centered on the stairs, but stop the 3car trains so only one end is near the stairs
It's also a reflection of the fact that there was sufficient capacity on the train - if people had sought it out. In this particular case, I will agree with you in that the train stopped well short of where trains using platform 11 usually do - thus catching people out.
I didn't say people couldn't board, they could get on and stand (even if it was standing for nearer 30 minutes). I was lucky didn't have to stand more than 20 minutes (and yes we had pointless counted place reservations on these GWR trains, but real numbered seats on XC trains)
Given the churn on the stoppers - although it is quite likely that there will be people standing for quite a large proportion of the journey, there is no need for it to be the same people. Of course it would be nice to have longer trains, but standing on rush hour trains is hardly a novel (or unexpected) phenomenon and it takes an awful lot of fares between Bristol and Keynsham or Bath and Bradford to make longer trains viable. At least we've now had the continuation of the half-hourly stopping service confirmed.
 

brad465

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Been on services in Bristol and Bath area this week at peak times, and lots of people were standing, even with the middle seats of 3 taken.

Clearly they need to lengthen the 3car turbos on some of the local trains to Westbury.

But it got me wondering, if 3car turbos are now struggling to cope on some services, how many vehicles should any new fleet have, 4 or pairs of 3car etc ?
Are there any 6-car diagrams in the West Country where both units are actually open to use? If a new fleet includes many 3-cars they will need to allow them to work in pairs without locking a unit out of use in passenger service.

I would maybe go for a mix of 3 and 5-car units: the 5-car would guarantee that length on key routes, while 3-car could be paired up as described. If tying in with SWR's order, they could have 5-car as well that would allow 10-car Waterloo-Salisbury, with 5 carrying onto Yeovil/Exeter. The latter is one carriage fewer than currently aimed for, however short-forming is common these days that would be avoided here, and a single 5-car unit can have comparable capacity to two 3-cars joined up. Hopefully also a decent Devon metro to Axminster would increase capacity on this section anyway.
 

anthony263

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I do think any new units should be a minimum of 3 carriages that would suite services around Bristol tm and Exeter as well as local thames valley routes abd reading however Bourne end will need looking at.

The semifast didcots and bedwyns will need 5 carriage units with pairs working the former. Newbury abd Gatwick though will need 4 carriages though won't they. Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour and Taunton/Exeter wil definitely suite 5 carriages
 

Snow1964

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Are there any 6-car diagrams in the West Country where both units are actually open to use? If a new fleet includes many 3-cars they will need to allow them to work in pairs without locking a unit out of use in passenger service.
A few workings each week run as 6cars between Bristol and Westbury, although really these just save a separate empty ECS trip.

Keynsham, Bath Spa, and Trowbridge (1 of 2 platforms) can all take 6cars anyway, and some of the others can get close to 5.5 cars. Wouldn't take much to lengthen the remaining platforms to take 6x23m (143m allowing usual 5m spare platform length). All are flat sites with no bridges, signals or structures to alter.

The way vast new office blocks are being built near Temple Meads, not being able to operate 2 x3car suburban sets (if there are no 2car) is going to be big problem in Bristol commuter area, especially in Westbury direction due to the huge new housing estates being built at Trowbridge and Warminster (it's something like 7000 extra houses near these 2 stations), plus lots of new apartments near Oldfield Park
 
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tfw756rider

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Mark Hopwood has already confirmed to RailMagazine that the 150s are receiving their last C6 exams to keep them going until 2030 ish. The plan is for the entire regional dmu of 150/158/165/166 and 175s fleet to be replaced in one go, probably will Class 196s or something similar. The 175s are just there as a stop gap on a short term lease of 5 years I believe.
196s?! I thought that no more pure Diesel Multiple Units will be ordered and that 197041, which will leave the factory in 2026, will be the last.
 

WelshBluebird

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In terms of number of carriages, the North Filton services will struggle massively when the arena opens if its just a 3 car turbo (once an hour, with no services later than 9pm ish)! Or will the usual pathetic answer come out like has happened in the south of the city (the metrobus services "not being meant" for Ashton Gate and talk of a future Ashton Gate Station not being open on match day.
 

Snow1964

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196s?! I thought that no more pure Diesel Multiple Units will be ordered and that 197041, which will leave the factory in 2026, will be the last.
My understanding is different, GWR is intending to get BEMUs, and is working on assumption that Filton-Temple Meads will be electrified by WEMCA funds, and possibly with few miles of wires in Exeter or Cheltenham area although these are more aspirations.

Unclear regarding Devon and Cornwall DMUs, but might be displaced 196s (not more new builds) if West Midlands gets BEMUs allowing them to be cascaded.
 

YorkshireBear

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I am trying to find the quote now, but I've read (modern railways I think) that GWR have not had positive musings from the DfT recently around project churchward and that DMUs will have to last a lot longer. I.e. behind Northern and TPE.

I'm trying to find it, read it in physical format so harder to just CTRL F....
 

anthony263

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I am trying to find the quote now, but I've read (modern railways I think) that GWR have not had positive musings from the DfT recently around project churchward and that DMUs will have to last a lot longer. I.e. behind Northern and TPE.

I'm trying to find it, read it in physical format so harder to just CTRL F....
I think thats why GWR have teamed up with SWR and Chiltern to get a better business case plus a big project is likely ro be quote attractive. Siemens offering partial electrification with their BEMUs could also be a.good seller to the treasury too
 

brad465

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I do think any new units should be a minimum of 3 carriages that would suite services around Bristol tm and Exeter as well as local thames valley routes abd reading however Bourne end will need looking at.
Could Bourne End be extended to 3-car without any new track? The buffers on platform 1 are further from the end wall than platform 2, so if they could be moved back there maybe an extra carriage in it.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Could Bourne End be extended to 3-car without any new track? The buffers on platform 1 are further from the end wall than platform 2, so if they could be moved back there maybe an extra carriage in it.
My understanding is that the problem is getting three cars in beyond the points for the Marlow branch - you can run three cars to Bourne End but not on to Marlow.

Sorry if you are already taking that into account...
 

D365

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Mark Hopwood has already confirmed to RailMagazine that the 150s are receiving their last C6 exams to keep them going until 2030 ish. The plan is for the entire regional dmu of 150/158/165/166 and 175s fleet to be replaced in one go, probably will Class 196s or something similar. The 175s are just there as a stop gap on a short term lease of 5 years I believe.
No doubt Alstrom, Hitachi, Siemens will offer new battery trains in tenders alongside the 196s?
Stadler will offer trains, but not having a UK assembly plant might work against it?
196s?! I thought that no more pure Diesel Multiple Units will be ordered and that 197041, which will leave the factory in 2026, will be the last.
Class 19x diesel multiple units will not meet the requirements for any of the upcoming rolling stock tenders.
 

Snow1964

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Mark Hopwood has already confirmed to RailMagazine that the 150s are receiving their last C6 exams to keep them going until 2030 ish. The plan is for the entire regional dmu of 150/158/165/166 and 175s fleet to be replaced in one go, probably will Class 196s or something similar. The 175s are just there as a stop gap on a short term lease of 5 years I believe.
At the moment there doesn't seem to be a plan, GWR can't muster enough stock on many days. More trains than usual needing repairs is starting to stretch definition of usual, it's borderline normal now.

The old DMUs can't be patched up and worked intensively, as depots and spares Dept cannot reach the required availability on too many days.

If look at latest GWR performance (linked), West which is nearly all DMU, cancellation rates are 5.20%, GWR caused cancellations are 3.02% quite a lot of which are due to no train available (and nothing on standby to take over). The South Wales - South Coast route (one exclusively operated by the 34-36 year old clapped out 158, 165, 166 DMUs has cancellation rate of 9.89%


So at moment appears DfT doesn't want to order new trains yet, citing DMUs good enough, but they are simply failing too often. So what is the plan (other than continued dithering).
 

The exile

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The South Wales - South Coast route (one exclusively operated by the 34-36 year old clapped out 158, 165, 166 DMUs has cancellation rate of 9.89%
The seemingly weekly encounters between high vehicles and the bridge at Limpley Stoke do those figures no good as well.
 

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