GWR PAYG

[swt_passenger]

I may have read slightly more into the Guardian report of Labour intentions than was meant, but there is an implication that contactless fares would be widespread, although 'more and more of the country' could mean a large number of isolated areas. Which would not seem especially national and could lead to a widespread extension of the current problems where people mistakenly travel from London to Bristol on some sort of London PAYG card, and are surprised to be charged a real fare en route. Presumably if they have not tapped out in London they also get an incomplete journey fare.

See: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-rail-travel-and-will-it-make-tickets-cheaper

'Things can be improved, Labour says, as contactless tap-in and tap-out payments extend through more and more of the country, opening up the possibility of a Transport for London-style system, where fares are streamlined and automatically capped or refunded.'

Yes, it’s definitely the sort of vague wording that can be read two ways.

 

[Haywain]

could lead to a widespread extension of the current problems where people mistakenly travel from London to Bristol on some sort of London PAYG card, and are surprised to be charged a real fare en route.

Is this a significant problem?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Is this a significant problem?

A guard seemed to think that she had met it often enough to be worth mentioning, but did not give any statistics. She recommended an ITSO card instead, but this is probably irrelevant to PAYG.

I do recall then looking at the wording of a website relating to some London PAYG system and wondering if the reference to validity on National Rail trains could be misinterpreted as meaning the whole national railway network. Not everyone is a pedant like me who would check that carefully. After all the whole point of PAYG is to make busy lives easier, so in London crowds rush through the terminals listening for the beep, whereas here in Bristol OAPs like me take a careful stance in front of the terminal and watch carefully to see exactly what the message is so as to commit it to memory. This does not cause delay because I have never seen anyone else using a PAYG card, although guards seem to be familiar so presumably someone else must.

 

[fandroid]

Me when I want a Travelcard not on a weekend.

Why "not on a weekend". My regular purchase of an outboundary Travelcard on a Smartcard is for Friday travel (& bought online).

I favour it because it's a single mode eticket useable where TfL's current policy is to ignore e-Tickets on smartphones. It also doesn't need a battery and isn't dependent on firing up an app for inspections or ticket gates.

(*last para added later)

 

[Haywain]

Why "not on a weekend". My regular purchase of an outboundary Travelcard on a Smartcard is for Friday travel (& bought online).

Because GTR Super Off Peak Travelcards are not fulfilled to smartcards?

 

[lachlan]

Chippenham to Bristol Parkway is only valid via Bath, but it can be quicker doubling back at Swindon. One benefit of this expanded system is presumably it's now valid to travel either route with a tap card - and I would imagine it will charge you the cheaper rate unless you tap in/out at Swindon on the way

 

[fandroid]

Because GTR Super Off Peak Travelcards are not fulfilled to smartcards?

Good reason. I'm pushed back to smartphone tickets for SWR's equivalents - Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Yes, it’s definitely the sort of vague wording that can be read two ways.

Although I expect that my original interpretation, 'nationwide' was probably what the journalist thought it meant, and probably what Labour think it means.

The paper version of the Guardian article also included praise for the success of LNER, for the taxpayer, not the customer. In fact PAYG is also a single leg pricing system, currently modulated by the continuing existence of the off-peak return tickets. Take those out and you have the LNER system, and PAYG getting the best fare means adding up all the single legs to get the one and only fare, the main change being that you are encouraged not to enquire about the cost in advance, just open your wallet so that the government can extract the 'full fruits of their labour' (Former Clause IV). (I assume that the 70 min train variation ticket would not find its way into PAYG.)

(https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-rail-travel-and-will-it-make-tickets-cheaper)


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2024 ==

PS: Saw someone else using a PAYG card at Sea Mills last Friday. He said it was the first time and he had been persuaded by the adverts. I gave him a short briefing on the perils and things to watch. Like me he was out cycling, which seems to be the main target market, because for open jaw and single journeys PAYG can save money, also good for indeterminate plans. Just need more cycle spaces to match the target market.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Found another PAYG system flaw last Monday, full details in trip report: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-beach-svb-return-cancelled-outbound.268471/

In essence I tapped in at Sea Mills for the 0904, the train was cancelled, I tapped out, got 'Journey Ended' from the validator, cycled direct to Rockhampton, and then to Severn Beach returning on the 1701. The following morning this showed correctly on my PAYG journey list, with a £0 tapped out at same station and the £0.65 single from SVB to SML in the evening. Not charged as normal for amounts under £1.00, which are deferred. The morning after that I received a charged £1.30 email and my journey list had been autocompleted to discard my tap in about 0844 and complete a journey from the 0851 to arrive at SVB using the 1004. It is not possible to amend this.

The system is appalling, it has performed as advertised, reaching the correct conclusion, then, a day later, discarded it and created an incorrect conclusion, deleting real data, and creating a fictitious journey. Real data that works as advertised should just not be discarded. PAYG increasingly resembles the Post Office Horizon system.

And of course the original tap in is presumably still in the system, which could be dreaming up some incomplete journey.

The wind being southerly I had toyed with the idea of continuing to Cam & Dursley. If I had done that would the amendment have been to a return to there, costing about £5.00 extra?





I have attempted to apply for a refund, which seemed to fail on inserting the image of the PAYG journey, submitted a complaint and written a letter to management.


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Separate Comments on Extended Area

With the area being extended to Swindon and the Kemble line now it means there's now journeys that can be made via multiple routes that have different fares - I don't see how the system would be able to know what route you took from Cheltenham to Swindon and I assume it would charge the lower 'via Stroud' fare by default?
View attachment 157009

It becomes yet more problematic if you show the whole table, including the columns to the right. I was toying with the idea of travelling from Sea Mills to Kemble. It appears that there is an Off Peak PAYG single from SML to KEM, but no anytime PAYG single, unlike Weston, which has only an anytime PAYG single. So if you tap in during the undefined peak time you will be charged not 13.00 but 46.80 day single. I used the PAYG fare checker this morning, and 46.80 is the answer it gave. So it seems that the validator area has been extended but PAYG not extended in any meaningful sense. I cannot see why the fare checker claims that the PAYG fare is 12.50 cheaper than the offpeak day single, it appears to be nearly twice as much. It sounds as though the checker thinks it has offered the 13.00 fare and compared it to the 25.50 off peak single, whilst displaying the 46.80 fare. I shall avoid going near Kemble.



As a minor amusement the online list defining the PAYG area omits Freshford, although it is shown, unnamed on the map on the same page. The downloadable PDF map does name it.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2024 ==

Found another PAYG system flaw last Monday, full details in trip report: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-beach-svb-return-cancelled-outbound.268471/

In essence I tapped in at Sea Mills for the 0904, the train was cancelled, I tapped out, got 'Journey Ended' from the validator, cycled direct to Rockhampton, and then to Severn Beach returning on the 1701. The following morning this showed correctly on my PAYG journey list, with a £0 tapped out at same station and the £0.65 single from SVB to SML in the evening. Not charged as normal for amounts under £1.00, which are deferred. The morning after that I received a charged £1.30 email and my journey list had been autocompleted to discard my tap in about 0844 and complete a journey from the 0851 to arrive at SVB using the 1004. It is not possible to amend this.

The system is appalling, it has performed as advertised, reaching the correct conclusion, then, a day later, discarded it and created an incorrect conclusion, deleting real data, and creating a fictitious journey. Real data that works as advertised should just not be discarded. PAYG increasingly resembles the Post Office Horizon system.

And of course the original tap in is presumably still in the system, which could be dreaming up some incomplete journey.

The wind being southerly I had toyed with the idea of continuing to Cam & Dursley. If I had done that would the amendment have been to a return to there, costing about £5.00 extra?





I have attempted to apply for a refund, which seemed to fail on inserting the image of the PAYG journey, submitted a complaint and written a letter to management.


************

***********

RESOLUTION OF SAME STATION TAP OUT FAILURE

Higher Authority has resolved the matter, crediting my PAYG account with £0.65 and thanking me for my help in identifying the problem and helping to improve the system. The PAYG team, who were aware of the problem, have been reminded to liaise with the supplier about it. My journey history now shows only the evening journey, the same station in-out in the morning has disappeared without trace. The ability to make real data disappear from user view is quite Horizon-like.



It is not an obscure problem. In the conurbations for which PAYG is designed there will usually be other ways of making the journey, so cancellations will result in people taking another route to destination and then reappearing at the destination in the evening. For example, at SML, you can walk 100 metres to the Park & Ride bus stop and take that into town.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Since Saturday morning GWR PAYG appears to be working on GMT (Greenwich Mean Time), or more probably UTC (Universal Time). Tap times are shown an hour before the times I tapped at, in civil time, currently British Summer Time or British Standard Time (BST).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2024 ==



******

... .....

I do recall then looking at the wording of a website relating to some London PAYG system and wondering if the reference to validity on National Rail trains could be misinterpreted as meaning the whole national railway network. Not everyone is a pedant like me who would check that carefully.....

In fact a relative visiting from Canada had misunderstood the meaning of the similarly confusing phrase 'Network Railcard' in the conditions of her Senior Railcard as meaning that Senior Railcards could not be used before 0930 anywhere in the UK.

 

[Snow1964]

Although not 100% PAYG related, seems over the weekend, a bit of a stink has erupted over inconsistent fares, with a rail journey of 14-15 minutes in South Bristol being 3 times that of similar time one in North Bristol

The fare structure is the responsibility of the West of England Combined Authority, which the council would have to work with to make any changes to ticket prices.

Green councillor Ed Plowden, chair of the transport committee, said he would “have a word with people at WECA”.

Plowden said: “I’m a great believer in trying to see what you can do which is quick and easy, like looking at fares rather than heavy engineering and irreversible changes.

Fares on suburban trains cost three times more in south Bristol

There is a noticeable discrepancy between different parts of the city

www.bristol247.com

 

[The exile]

Although not 100% PAYG related, seems over the weekend, a bit of a stink has erupted over inconsistent fares, with a rail journey of 14-15 minutes in South Bristol being 3 times that of similar time one in North Bristol

Fares on suburban trains cost three times more in south Bristol

There is a noticeable discrepancy between different parts of the city

www.bristol247.com

And if anyone thinks that will result in non- Severn Beach line fares ( it’s not a north/siouth issue) being reduced….

 

[Benjwri]

And if anyone thinks that will result in non- Severn Beach line fares ( it’s not a north/siouth issue) being reduced….

It really depends on the outcome. In most cases I agree but WECA is actually quite reasonable and I could see them paying to lower them. They seem to have an extraordinary large amount of money available to spend most of the time.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

It really depends on the outcome. In most cases I agree but WECA is actually quite reasonable and I could see them paying to lower them. They seem to have an extraordinary large amount of money available to spend most of the time.

The original remarks did have an unfortunate tone, almost suggesting that rich travellers north of the river (presumably in Stapleton Road & Lawrence Hill) should have their fares increased to fairer levels. It should really have aimed at proposing that the success of the SVB zonal fare scheme, in income, simplicity, increased usage or whatever, gives ground for extending the approach south of the river and across the region. The problem is presumably that most rail campaigners are socialist, so 'soak the rich' is a default setting. And like all campaigners everywhere unable to stand back and look at the tone and nuance of what they have said.

I do not think I have yet encountered a guard issuing a zonal fare, it is always from A to B, sometimes from the first station in the zone, for example boarding at SML for SVB you will sometimes receive a ticket from CDN.

 

[lachlan]

The original remarks did have an unfortunate tone, almost suggesting that rich travellers north of the river (presumably in Stapleton Road & Lawrence Hill) should have their fares increased to fairer levels. It should really have aimed at proposing that the success of the SVB zonal fare scheme, in income, simplicity, increased usage or whatever, gives ground for extending the approach south of the river and across the region. The problem is presumably that most rail campaigners are socialist, so 'soak the rich' is a default setting. And like all campaigners everywhere unable to stand back and look at the tone and nuance of what they have said.

I do not think I have yet encountered a guard issuing a zonal fare, it is always from A to B, sometimes from the first station in the zone, for example boarding at SML for SVB you will sometimes receive a ticket from CDN.

Reading the linked article, the Bristol Rail Campaign appear to merely point out the disparity between prices in north and south Bristol. The spin on rich vs poor seems to come from the newspaper.

Regardless of how you spin it though the Severn Beach line now has two trains per hour (with talk of a third) meanwhile Bedminster and Parson Street only have one an hour.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Reading the linked article, the Bristol Rail Campaign appear to merely point out the disparity between prices in north and south Bristol. The spin on rich vs poor seems to come from the newspaper.
....

Possibly, but it is not what you say, but the way that you say it that counts. And if an intermediary is going to put their own spin on it, then you have to be careful that you do not give them a handle to put the wrong spin on it.

I looked on the Campaign website to see if the original statement is there, but the most recent seems to be a Jan 23 item about penalty fares. It seems the SVB line has been a penalty fare line for 18 months, except stations without ticket machines, which is probably why I have not noticed. Also using a PAYG card since last summer. ( https://bristolrailcampaign.org.uk/penalty-fares-severn-beach/)

 

[lachlan]

Possibly, but it is not what you say, but the way that you say it that counts. And if an intermediary is going to put their own spin on it, then you have to be careful that you do not give them a handle to put the wrong spin on it.

I looked on the Campaign website to see if the original statement is there, but the most recent seems to be a Jan 23 item about penalty fares. It seems the SVB line has been a penalty fare line for 18 months, except stations without ticket machines, which is probably why I have not noticed. Also using a PAYG card since last summer. ( https://bristolrailcampaign.org.uk/penalty-fares-severn-beach/)

I'm afraid I am not sure where the original statement was... I do subscribe to the Bristol Rail Campaign newsletters and they're pretty good

 

[sleepy_hollow]

I'm afraid I am not sure where the original statement was... I do subscribe to the Bristol Rail Campaign newsletters and they're pretty good

For the second time I have an invitation to go to the Post Office Delivery Office and pay £2.50 to collect an underpaid item. I suspect that it is once again the Campaign newsletter, so will probably just let it return to source, although reading it online does not seem to be an option, the newest there is December 2023. Interesting, but perhaps a little cosy.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Debated about not posting this due to unintended consequences, but it is something I'd like to understand and I am hoping it's a clue to something new!

I did a PAYG return journey from Ashley Down to Keynsham last week, something that should cost a total of £9.80 (2 x £4.90) according to the GWR payg site.

However I was actually charged just £6, with the website showing a label of "BRISTOL PAYG A 1 DAY" for the fare and the origin and destination shown as just "BRISTOL ABT A" (rather than the actual stations).

The pricing and naming of this seems to potentially suggest some kind of zoning system matched to the Freedom Travelpass, for which Keynsham is the last station in the "A" zone to the east, and is charged at £6.50 for a day ticket for the A zone (but that includes bus travel too - so a price just below that for a rail only version seems fair).

Any clue? New options incoming or just a glitch?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

A file named 'Pay as you go ZONES Bristol area V3.pdf' can be found on the media section of the GWR website, and is attached. The map itself does not mention PAYG but presumably the name means it is. It may once have appeared in the PAYG explanations for passengers, but does not currently do so. I think when I first examined getting a PAYG card there was a zone based explanation.

The zones shown plainly do not match the fares table, for example Avonmouth to Lawrence Hill is not equal to Avonmouth to Sea Mills, which reflect the Severn Beach line inner and outer zone system. Those zones have been in use for years, but I have never received a ticket showing zones rather than individual stations, although sometimes crew issue tickets between the edge stations, for example Clifton Down to Severn Beach rather than Sea Mills to Severn Beach.

Stapleton Road to Keynsham (5.90 rtn) seems to be closer to what you were charged than the Filton Abbeywood to Keynsham fare (9.80 rtn), so perhaps despite the alleged zones Ashley Road has been inserted at a fare between the two, at least as far as the PAYG system is concerned. (I only have the April '24 fares table to hand.) Using Parson St to Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road as another test, the fares differ by 10p single, despite both being in the alleged zone A. So although someone thinks there ought to be a zonal PAYG system, there does not appear to be one according to the fare table. But perhaps someone entered it in the software. I have the impression that no one, probably including the programmers, knows what the PAYG system really does, on which more later.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Having some fun yesterday and today with the pads at Keynsham not working.

Made me realise there is nothing in the faqs that GWR provide to say what to do if you can't tap out due to the machines not working.

I assume I need to wait for the journey to appear on my account and then correct it, but can't see anything that actually says that for when the machines aren't working.

There's some stuff around if you forget, but not if you literally cannot.

There's also a gap around what if you can't tap in due to technical failure too. I assume I should buy a regular single from a tvm / ticket office etc but that then costs more money which seems particularly unfair given the failure is on GWRs side.

Looking at the actual t&cs some of this is answered, but it really needs to be a lot more clear. And even the the t&cs seem pretty unfair when failure is down to gwr and not the passenger (e.g. they say you can only manually correct journeys 3 times in any 28 day period and after four times they may close your account).

Saying all of that my journey from yesterday has literally just auto completed which is good!

And actually reading the t&cs has answered my earlier question about zonal fares. They say they do actually take into account the freedom travelpass zones and fares. That is huge and I really think they should make more of a deal of that because that provides quite a large saving on some return journeys in the area.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Encountered the same problem at Sea Mills about a fortnight ago so asked the inspector to tap me in on the train, but as she could not find the function on her machine she just said that I would not have any problem leaving at Severn Beach. Probably true for most stations in the zone, and I might have found an examiner who knew how to do it had I been travelling further.

On the return the afternoon being fine and being on Stock Hill two hours before sunset I decided to cycle home so as to avoid getting involved in the penalty or autocomplete processes. I have not studied the T&Cs but I assume that having presented yourself with an approved, much promoted method of payment you are entitled to ask for the PAYG fare, however you buy it.

 

[Vexed]

asked the inspector to tap me in on the train, but as she could not find the function on her machine

I highly doubt it's possible to get tapped in on a train.

In GTR land I also find the reliability of these standalone readers (they are the same design as sleepy_hollow's photo) disappointing, though they are usually in pairs. Some of them seem to repeatedly break - there was one at Welwyn North where I watched someone from Cubic fix it then it was broken again the next day!

 

[sleepy_hollow]

I highly doubt it's possible to get tapped in on a train.
.... ....

During the autumn, having checked my card, which was in order, a senior inspector took the opportunity to explain the workings of PAYG to a junior inspector, including demonstrating to him how to tap a passenger in on the train 'if they look innocent', so I assume it can be done. As I did not stand up and look over his shoulder I cannot comment on how.

On the occasion of the reader failure at Sea Mills (SML), I did wonder about returning from Severn Beach and asking the examiner to check me out for SML, but as said above, decided it was safest to keep away from the PAYG system in failure mode.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

I believe there was a national fare increase last weekend. Rather surprisingly the PAYG open jaw journey I made on Monday, to Weston with return from Yatton, seems to have been cheaper than the similar journey I made a month ago.





I shall keep an eye on this since the system has already demonstrated its ability to come back later and revise its original conclusions, as with the cancelled outward leg I mentioned further up the thread. There was also an occasion in the autumn when I was charged 1.20 rather than 1.30 for a return to Severn Beach, but some time later 10p was added to my bill for another journey. It is not clear when you can assume that the system has finalised a transaction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2025 ==

********************************
Then, returning to the question of what to do if the validator is not working at the boarding point there was that strange occasion in December (1) when the validator plainly was not working, but the guard thought it was. On that occasion the option of crossing the footbridge to use the validator on the other platform did cross my mind, but I thought it too risky as departure time was approaching and I had already loaded my bicycle on the train. I suppose I could have left it half on the train, half on the platform to give me time to cross the bridge and back...

(1) https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mills-sml-tap-in-tap-out-for-problems.278847/

 

[Vexed]

I believe there was a national fare increase last weekend. Rather surprisingly the PAYG open jaw journey I made on Monday, to Weston with return from Yatton, seems to have been cheaper than the similar journey I made a month ago.

On brfares.com the Sea Mills to Weston Super Mare was £5.25 until the March 2024 increase... The Yatton back to Sea Mills is in as £4.20 for that fares period which could be different railcard rounding to get to the £4.15 GWR have (strange it's rounded the other way though, I'd expect GWR to be higher if they are applying the new railcard rounding rules to the old fares data. The unrounded value at the old railcard calculating rules is £4.224, new rules £4.2624). So it seems there is close approximation to old fares data but not quite.

 

[ArranArchie]

I believe there was a national fare increase last weekend.

Not sure if this was accounted for, but both the Cornwall and Bristol areas have a promotional 10% discount this month when using PAYG:

Limited time offer​

For the entire month of March, you’ll get 10% off every journey when you travel using pay-as-you-go.^

If you are an existing pay-as-you-go customer no need to do anything – just tap in, tap out, and save automatically.

^The 10% PAYG discount is valid on travel within the Bristol and Cornwall PAYG area from 1 – 31 March 2025. Fares will increase by up to the regulated rate of 4.6% on 2 March 2025. The 10% discount applies to the best value walk-up or flexible fares as available on GWR.com at the time of your journey. Excludes Advance Single tickets. Discount also applies to PAYG single fares, daily/weekly caps, and is in addition to eligible Railcard discounts (see railcard terms for full details). Time restrictions and minimum fares may apply. Offer has no cash value and may be amended or withdrawn at any time. Payment is taken automatically from your linked bank account.

 

[paul1609]

This all makes me convinced that I shouldn't go near any PAYG Smartcard systems except Oyster.

Ive been using Keygo since shortly after it was introduced without any problems. My only disappointment is that its still not been extended to Portsmouth or Ashford despite Southern promising it would be extended in a couple of months many years ago.

 

[Sleepy]

Not sure if this was accounted for, but both the Cornwall and Bristol areas have a promotional 10% discount this month when using PAYG:

This suggests the take up isn't as high as expected ?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

This suggests the take up isn't as high as expected ?

I nearly tried the line 'Here is the only PAYG card in the wild' on a guard today, but chickened out from such frivolity. Will try next time and see what the response is.

As for the explanation, 4.6 % up and 10% down does seem to fit the observed 4 % drop in the fare since last month. As promotional discounts go the 10 % does seem to have the failing that no-one has heard of it.