GWR Misuse Railcard

[pp947]

Hello everyone,

Thank God that I’ve found this forum!

I traveled from Twickenham to Slough today using the 16-17 saver and got caught by the GWR inspector on the connecting train from Windsor Central to Slough that I don‘t have the 16-17 saver.

Firstly, the inspector approached and asked for the ticket and the 16–17 saver. I know I don‘t have it, and I’m very panicked since this is the first time that I’ve been caught, so I show my sister‘s 16-25 railcard instead, thinking that the inspector might not take it as the severe case if I only use the wrong rail card. It turned out that he asked for my ID card, which I showed them; the name is obviously not the same as on the 16-25 railcard. I took photos of the 16–25 railcard and my ID card. Then he asked for my address, and I gave it to him. He asked me whether I wanted to leave now, and I said I actually wanted to leave. He noted it down and gave me a little GWR prosecution report card, and said that there will be a letter sent to my address for further action.

I didn‘t say much about why I don’t have the right railcard or give any excuse to him, and I only followed what he told me to do. Hopefully, it would show that I don’t have any acts of aggression on his body camera.

While I’m waiting for the letter, I have questions to ask below.

• Will my sister get into trouble with this? She is now studying at her university and always uses the right valid railway cards to pay for the tickets. I only show her railcard, hoping that I can get the penalty fee charge.
  
  
• How long does it normally take for me to get the letter from the GWR prosecution team? (I’m leaving the UK permanently in 4 months. I’m planning to redirect the letter to my friend’s address but I won’t be able to physically write the letter back if that’s what they would require me to do)
  
  
• I have a good history of traveling on the train with valid railcards. Could this help too?

After that, I immediately repurchased the 26-30 railcard that is valid for me and started to use on the next train today. I’ll make sure to book the right ones after this, even though I’m not sure that GWR would give me a kind decision not bring me to the court or not. I hope this would go to my purchase history if they tried to trace back. I just want to show that I will not let it happen ever again.

I’m very worried and have admitted that what I’ve done is completely wrong, so I hope to end this as soon as possible.

Thanks!
PP

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Just to be clear you purchased a ticket with a 16-17 Railcard discount applied but after the event you purchased a 26-30 Railcard. So you're not eligible for a 16-17 Saver Railcard, have I got this right?

GWR will write to you, the letter usually takes a few weeks to arrive but can take up to six months. I suggest sending a reply that mentions that you applied a 16-17 Railcard to which you aren't entitled. In addition I'd also mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. GWR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they are within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. GWR will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[fandroid]

It's doubtful that anything will rebound on your sister. You didn't use her Railcard to buy tickets. GWR will simply go after the fare evasion that you committed, which was to claim a 16-17 Saver discount you weren't entitled to. If it came to court, then they'd almost certainly focus on just the one event when you were caught red-handed, although they could ask for previous ones to be taken into consideration in order to be able to recover all the lost fares.

 

[pp947]

Welcome to the forum!

Just to be clear you purchased a ticket with a 16-17 Railcard discount applied but after the event you purchased a 26-30 Railcard. So you're not eligible for a 16-17 Saver Railcard, have I got this right?

GWR will write to you, the letter usually takes a few weeks to arrive but can take up to six months. I suggest sending a reply that mentions that you applied a 16-17 Railcard to which you aren't entitled. In addition I'd also mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. GWR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they are within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. GWR will be able to search your purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Thanks Hadders!

 

[Snow1964]

If you use a single account to buy tickets for all the family, that is ok in principle.

However you have to be careful that you don't leave railcard boxes ticked for wrong railcard if different members of family have different railcards. However it does mean that the purchasing history will show a mix of tickets.

This might slow down the letter being sent to you (it might take 1-2 months, but can be upto nearer 5 months). When you get the letter it will possibly try and attribute all purchases made to you (they won't know whole family uses it), so make it clear in your reply when they ask for your version of events.

You might find it useful to download your journey history, print it and start working out which are your journeys and which belong to other family members. If they want to add say 50 previous occasions but only 15 of them are yours (and remainder are other family members) you will need to say so.

Your sister should be ok, if you admit to taking her railcard (and cannot really say picked up wrong one in error if you don't have one).

 

[pp947]

It's doubtful that anything will rebound on your sister. You didn't use her Railcard to buy tickets. GWR will simply go after the fare evasion that you committed, which was to claim a 16-17 Saver discount you weren't entitled to. If it came to court, then they'd almost certainly focus on just the one event when you were caught red-handed, although they could ask for previous ones to be taken into consideration in order to be able to recover all the lost fares.

Thanks Fandroid! Does the case similar to mine end up with the court? Or is there still a chance for me to negotiate for the out-of-court settlement?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2024 ==

If you use a single account to buy tickets for all the family, that is ok in principle.

However you have to be careful that you don't leave railcard boxes ticked for wrong railcard if different members of family have different railcards. However it does mean that the purchasing history will show a mix of tickets.

This might slow down the letter being sent to you (it might take 1-2 months, but can be upto nearer 5 months). When you get the letter it will possibly try and attribute all purchases made to you (they won't know whole family uses it), so make it clear in your reply when they ask for your version of events.

You might find it useful to download your journey history, print it and start working out which are your journeys and which belong to other family members. If they want to add say 50 previous occasions but only 15 of them are yours (and remainder are other family members) you will need to say so.

Your sister should be ok, if you admit to taking her railcard (and cannot really say picked up wrong one in error if you don't have one).

Thank you! I will try to list out all journeys as you recommended.

The thing is I’m permanently leaving the UK soon in around 4 months. I’m planning to redirect my address to my friend’s one, but would not be able to physically write it back. I don’t want to have a criminal record ignoring this in case I will visit UK for traveling purpose in the future. Any suggestions to make it right?

 

[Snow1964]

Thanks Fandroid! Does the case similar to mine end up with the court? Or is there still a chance for me to negotiate for the out-of-court settlement?

You don't get to negotiate, it is more a take it or leave it offer. They might not make a cash offer, it's their choice, not yours.

If there is fundamental error, eg added your families journeys too, then you can ask to exclude these.

The way to think of it is an offer to pay what is asked and close it. The alternative is to risk court and higher penalty and compensation (generally not good choice if blatantly guilty)

 

[pp947]

Hello everyone,

Thank God that I’ve found this forum!

I traveled from Twickenham to Slough today using the 16-17 saver and got caught by the GWR inspector on the connecting train from Windsor Central to Slough that I don‘t have the 16-17 saver.

Firstly, the inspector approached and asked for the ticket and the 16–17 saver. I know I don‘t have it, and I’m very panicked since this is the first time that I’ve been caught, so I show my sister‘s 16-25 railcard instead, thinking that the inspector might not take it as the severe case if I only use the wrong rail card. It turned out that he asked for my ID card, which I showed them; the name is obviously not the same as on the 16-25 railcard. I took photos of the 16–25 railcard and my ID card. Then he asked for my address, and I gave it to him. He asked me whether I wanted to leave now, and I said I actually wanted to leave. He noted it down and gave me a little GWR prosecution report card, and said that there will be a letter sent to my address for further action.

I didn‘t say much about why I don’t have the right railcard or give any excuse to him, and I only followed what he told me to do. Hopefully, it would show that I don’t have any acts of aggression on his body camera.

While I’m waiting for the letter, I have questions to ask below.

• Will my sister get into trouble with this? She is now studying at her university and always uses the right valid railway cards to pay for the tickets. I only show her railcard, hoping that I can get the penalty fee charge.
  
  
• How long does it normally take for me to get the letter from the GWR prosecution team?
  
  
• Even though this is my first time that I have been caught, I have purchased the tickets with 16-17 savers many times (more than 30 times for many months). Is there any chance of an out-of-court settlement for my case?
  
  
• Would they likely ask me to pay for other journeys I’ve booked with the 16–17 saver (GWR and non-GWR) or only the one that I’ve been caught? (The scary fact is, all the tickets and my sister railcard are paid under the same account in the Trainline app.)
  
  
• I have a good history of traveling on the train with valid railcards since I’ve started used the app for a year before I started to use the 16-17 saver. Could this help too?

After that, I immediately repurchased the 26-30 railcard that is valid for me and started to use on the next train today. I’ll make sure to book the right ones after this, even though I’m not sure that GWR would give me a kind decision not bring me to the court or not. I hope this would go to my purchase history if they tried to trace back. I just want to show that I will not let it happen ever again.

I’m very worried and have admitted that what I’ve done is completely wrong, so I hope to end this as soon as possible.

Thanks!
PP

You don't get to negotiate, it is more a take it or leave it offer. They might not make a cash offer, it's their choice, not yours.

If there is fundamental error, eg added your families journeys too, then you can ask to exclude these.

The way to think of it is an offer to pay what is asked and close it. The alternative is to risk court and higher penalty and compensation (generally not good choice if blatantly guilty)

I will for sure go with taking the offer if that what makes me not going to the court.

Does asking to exclude my family journey will make them think I’m difficult to deal with and put me to the court instead?

Should I continue use this account to book the future tickets and start building a good journey record or use the completely new one not to make the GWR confuse?

 

[Haywain]

Does asking to exclude my family journey will make them think I’m difficult to deal with and put me to the court instead?

You could try building a list of your purchases and those for family that were actually legitimate so that you can produce it to GWR if their settlement offer looks to high.

Should I continue use this account to book the future tickets and start building a good journey record or use the completely new one not to make the GWR confuse?

That depends on whether you plan on buying legitimate tickets in future. If all your purchases are at the correct price there won’t be a problem. However, I think it would be better to have your own account rather than a shared one.

 

[ikcdab]

if you are leaving the UK in 4 months then it will be difficult for GWR to chase you up and it would be tempting to ignore it. However, you still need to engage with them as, if you ignore it, you will be convicted in your absence and that might make it difficult if you ever want to come back.
I do not understand why you would not be able to physicsally write back...they have a postal system where you are going?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I actually knew that I cannot use the 16-17 saver to book the tickets but I’ve booked the tickets by selecting 16-17 savers through the app to get the cheaper price.

Just how many times have you done this previously, before you got stopped? Thirty plus times? If you've booked the majority of such (inappropriately discounted) tickets online or via an app, it'll be easy enough for the train company's investigation team to access your ticket purchasing history, in order to check.

An undiscounted Anytime Day Single from Twickenham to Slough (or vice-versa) is something like £18.10 for each one way journey, and so, even if you are able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement" you could well get asked to pay several multiples of this amount for each and every journey where they reckon you've not paid the correct fare, plus maybe a three figure sum on top towards their investigation and admin costs.

 

[pp947]

if you are leaving the UK in 4 months then it will be difficult for GWR to chase you up and it would be tempting to ignore it. However, you still need to engage with them as, if you ignore it, you will be convicted in your absence and that might make it difficult if you ever want to come back.
I do not understand why you would not be able to physicsally write back...they have a postal system where you are going?

I’m leaving to somewhere Asia. I knew some companies require to write the letter back, so I’m not sure if I have to actually handwrite it or I can only just send them the email back. If I have to handwrite it, it could take up to 14 days for the letter to go and come back to the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2024 ==

Just how many times have you done this previously, before you got stopped? Thirty plus times? If you've booked the majority of such (inappropriately discounted) tickets online or via an app, it'll be easy enough for the train company's investigation team to access your ticket purchasing history, in order to check.

An undiscounted Anytime Day Single from Twickenham to Slough (or vice-versa) is something like £18.10 for each one way journey, and so, even if you are able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement" you could well get asked to pay several multiples of this amount for each and every journey where they reckon you've not paid the correct fare, plus maybe a three figure sum on top towards their investigation and admin costs.

Thanks Mcr Warrior! I’m happy to pay back all to cover whatever I should have paid because that’s the consequence to what I did. I just hope they don’t put me to the court. Any thoughts about this please?

 

[ikcdab]

its really difficult to say whether they will take you to court. If it was just a one-off, then no, but it depends on how many times they think you have defrauded them in the past. Railway companies prefer to settle out of court as its cheaper and essier, but then they like to take serial offenders to court as an exsample to others. You can only wait for the letter sand see what it says.
As you say you are going abroad, i wonder if it is worth contacting them by email, explain the situation and ask for the correspondence to be by email. I have no idea if they would do this. Others might advise.

 

[fandroid]

I’m leaving to somewhere Asia. I knew some companies require to write the letter back, so I’m not sure if I have to actually handwrite it or I can only just send them the email back. If I have to handwrite it, it could take up to 14 days for the letter to go and come back to the UK.

I'm fairly sure that others have been able to communicate with GWR by email previously. It does seem to be a pragmatic company. If you explain carefully and respectfully about the family account, I'm sure that won't be seen as not cooperating, but rather as a genuine attempt to engage with them. If, when you get the letter there's no obvious email address, then others on the forum will be able to help suggest one.

 

[pp947]

its really difficult to say whether they will take you to court. If it was just a one-off, then no, but it depends on how many times they think you have defrauded them in the past. Railway companies prefer to settle out of court as its cheaper and essier, but then they like to take serial offenders to court as an exsample to others. You can only wait for the letter sand see what it says.
As you say you are going abroad, i wonder if it is worth contacting them by email, explain the situation and ask for the correspondence to be by email. I have no idea if they would do this. Others might advise.

Thanks, I will try to contact them through email today and see what they can do. It would be great if they can be in touch with me via email.

If my case go to the court, do I have to attend the court? I'm quite certain that I won't be in the UK by that time and could not effort the ticket back here anytime soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2024 ==

Thanks, I will try to contact them through email today and see what they can do. It would be great if they can be in touch with me via email.

If my case go to the court, do I have to attend the court? I'm quite certain that I won't be in the UK by that time and could not effort the ticket back here anytime soon.

Thanks Fandroid! Do you know there is anything I can do/check my case from the little card that they gave me? There is some kind of code FGxxxx on it.

 

[WesternLancer]

It might help for you to read the GWR revenue protection policy

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/revenue-protection-policy/GWR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023-v2.pdf

I do not think there is any point in trying to e-mail them now - you should wait until they process your case and send you a letter which will be when they have allocated you a case reference etc. If you are going abroad in 4 months time maybe only e-mail them if you have not heard in say 2 months.

I assume you gave them a correct postal address where you can be contacted in the UK now.

 

[pp947]

It might help for you to read the GWR revenue protection policy

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/revenue-protection-policy/GWR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023-v2.pdf

I do not think there is any point in trying to e-mail them now - you should wait until they process your case and send you a letter which will be when they have allocated you a case reference etc. If you are going abroad in 4 months time maybe only e-mail them if you have not heard in say 2 months.

I assume you gave them a correct postal address where you can be contacted in the UK now.

Great advice, thanks! It would be better to not interrupt their investigation too. I reckon I gave him right but I was also very panicked at that time.

 

[pleasehelp1]

Did u get any letter? Whats the update?

 

[Titfield]

Did u get any letter? Whats the update?

If you have a similar issue please create your own thread.

This forum operates a one problem one thread system to avoid confusion.

This is especially important as advice for one case may be very different for what appears to be a similar case.

Thank you.

 

[30907]

If you have a similar issue please create your own thread.

They already have

But in any case the OP hasn't posted for 2 months so probably won't read it.