GWR locomotives

[India Four Two]

Two questions.

1. Why did the GWR use copper for chimneys and brass for safety valves?

2. Who introduced the Brunswick Green colour scheme?

 

[Sorcerer]

Allegedly the copper linings on the chimneys of GWR locomotives were to prevent deterioration of the iron castings from hot water vapour that later just became standard. I wouldn't be too surprised if Swindon Works eventually just decided to keep it going as a distinctive Great Western trait even if it came at an additional expense, but it might just have became standard practice anyway. As for the Brunswick Green colour, apparently this was a BR Standard thing that was never actually a thing on Great Western, but not quite sure who introduced it. I'm sure more informed people on the forums could correct me on that one.

 

[Gloster]

2 - There is a fair amount to be found on .gwr.org.uk under Liveries.

 

[Rescars]

The GWR was not unique in using copper caps for its chimneys. For example, Stroudley on the LBSC was keen on them too. Brass safety valve covers were quite popular with several companies in the mid-Victorian era.

 

[D Williams]

In some ways the GWR never moved on from the mid-Victorian era.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

2. Who introduced the Brunswick Green colour scheme?

I thought the GWR green was called "Deep bronze green"? Is it actually the same shade as Brunswick green?

 

[Taunton]

The green colour was long used. It was a common paint colour from earlier times, when pigment technology was limited, because it was more straightforward to achieve with simpler materials, along with darker greens not showing the dirt. Blue was long the most difficult paint colour, and likewise for colour photography.

Contrary to some belief, it also was not precisely controlled. Different paint batches differed a bit, different manufacturers were used - and different makers used different names. The GWR itself called the colour, no surprise, "GWR Green". There was no computer control of the quantities in the mix, and what was supplied was then commonly applied by mixing with thinners, which was just carried out by the individual painter. It was then varnished (which was a bit brown in those times), so depending on how many varnish coats went on determined how the colour was varied. Weathering included pigments decaying over time, which was the real problem with blue until quite recent advances. I believe skilled painters used to look at the tins and make judgements like 'manufacturer A needs a bit more thinners in the green than B for a similar end result'.

 

[Rescars]

AIUI, even before the painters made their professional adjustments, the shade of GWR green in the 19th century varied a bit between the different loco superintendents and also between the two works at Swindon and Wolverhampton.

 

[contrex]

The green colour was long used. It was a common paint colour from earlier times, when pigment technology was limited, because it was more straightforward to achieve with simpler materials, along with darker greens not showing the dirt.

BR Southern Region green, in my own memory varied wildly due, I found out as an adult, to differing paint batches, length of time since application, the SR practice of revarnishing, weathering, and so on.

 

[ThirteenArches]

In some ways the GWR never moved on from the mid-Victorian era.

It's called "corporate identity" these days. Harmless enough in itself, and perhaps indicates a willingness to spend a little more than the bare minimum on the stock. Which boded well for maintenance standards too.

As for consistency of colour, that's hard enough to get even these days. People's memory for subtle shades is notoriously unreliable.

Lots of railways and builders favoured brass safety valve covers of various shapes before cost became a primary factor. The chunky GWR one was in my opinion rather less attractive than the sweep of Sharp Stewart's. I wonder if copper chimney caps lasted as well as cast iron?

 

[Taunton]

It's called "corporate identity" these days. Harmless enough in itself, and perhaps indicates a willingness to spend a little more than the bare minimum on the stock. Which boded well for maintenance standards too.

As for consistency of colour, that's hard enough to get even these days. People's memory for subtle shades is notoriously unreliable.

Capital investment was rarely an issue for the GWR. They did a huge reinvestment in new major main lines in 1900-1910, far more than any other company. Churchward was allowed to build a whole range of trial and test locomotives to try out a range of ideas.

Regarding loco livery, notably their express livery, not just base colour but all the lining detail as well, was (after a couple of false starts) picked up by BR and went right through to the end of steam.

 

[Rescars]

I wonder how the experience of conversion from the broad gauge impacted views about capital expenditure in the corridors of power at Paddington.

 

[The Crab]

The green colour was long used. It was a common paint colour from earlier times, when pigment technology was limited, because it was more straightforward to achieve with simpler materials, along with darker greens not showing the dirt. Blue was long the most difficult paint colour, and likewise for colour photography.

Contrary to some belief, it also was not precisely controlled. Different paint batches differed a bit, different manufacturers were used - and different makers used different names. The GWR itself called the colour, no surprise, "GWR Green". There was no computer control of the quantities in the mix, and what was supplied was then commonly applied by mixing with thinners, which was just carried out by the individual painter. It was then varnished (which was a bit brown in those times), so depending on how many varnish coats went on determined how the colour was varied. Weathering included pigments decaying over time, which was the real problem with blue until quite recent advances. I believe skilled painters used to look at the tins and make judgements like 'manufacturer A needs a bit more thinners in the green than B for a similar end result'.

Where does "Middle Chrome Green" fit in?

 

[Revaulx]

Regarding loco livery, notably their express livery, not just base colour but all the lining detail as well, was (after a couple of false starts) picked up by BR and went right through to the end of steam.

A mistake, in my opinion. In order to succeed, GW green needed the highlights provided by those little brass bits. In locos without them it didn’t look anything like as good.

 

[norbitonflyer]

A mistake, in my opinion. In order to succeed, GW green needed the highlights provided by those little brass bits. In locos without them it didn’t look anything like as good.

Likewise the current GWR livery - which is historically wrong for mu stock anyway.

 

[Taunton]

I think the various expressions such as "Brunswick Green", "Middle Chrome Green", etc, are descriptions by others, whether paint manufacturers, art college students, writers, or others, which have gained a certain currency. The railway paint shop knew what they meant by "GWR Green". However, when vehicles were built outside, such as Gloucester RC&W, Swindon would ship tins of their paint, green, brown, cream, orange for lining, whatever, to ensure colour consistency.

The GWR must have been one of the largest users of paint in the UK. Did they have their own paint factory at Swindon?

 

[D Williams]

Capital investment was rarely an issue for the GWR. They did a huge reinvestment in new major main lines in 1900-1910, far more than any other company. Churchward was allowed to build a whole range of trial and test locomotives to try out a range of ideas.

Regarding loco livery, notably their express livery, not just base colour but all the lining detail as well, was (after a couple of false starts) picked up by BR and went right through to the end of steam.

There were only two ways of doing things , The GWR way and the wrong way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2025 ==

I think the various expressions such as "Brunswick Green", "Middle Chrome Green", etc, are descriptions by others, whether paint manufacturers, art college students, writers, or others, which have gained a certain currency. The railway paint shop knew what they meant by "GWR Green". However, when vehicles were built outside, such as Gloucester RC&W, Swindon would ship tins of their paint, green, brown, cream, orange for lining, whatever, to ensure colour consistency.

The GWR must have been one of the largest users of paint in the UK. Did they have their own paint factory at Swindon?

The Royal Navy used a tin or so.

 

[Gloster]

The GWR must have been one of the largest users of paint in the UK. Did they have their own paint factory at Swindon?

There is no reference of any such facility in Peck’s history of Swindon Works, only a mention of the Paint Shop burning down in February 1911. I think normal practice in those days was to buy in the various coloured powders from manufacturers and then mix them on site. Presumably there would be a recipe of how much of each colour was needed, but more experienced staff would be able to judge exactly how close they had got with the recipes and what to do to match exactly. There were also pattern pieces sent out showing exactly how the colour should look to allow comparison.