GWR Locking out carriages

[Mojo]

I agree we should all get back to normal now, as most of the population has been vaccinated. However, social distancing as far as I’m aware, never went away?

The Government dropped all guidance around social distancing in July last year. Employers and other companies are however free to keep this as their policy or recommendations, but officially it hasn’t existed since then.

 

[43066]

Just a point of order - there are still a number of conductors on Individual Health Risk Assessments, those deemed as highest risk to falling ill. It may be one of those people who has done this.

But ultimately all people can do is get the vaccine. You aren’t going to be able to job like being a guard without mixing with a lot of other people from time to time.

If the company can make reasonable adjustments, why restrict duties? The comparison to flu is generally flawed as the potential longterm effects of Covid are different to flu. However, the effect of 99% of the population who catch covid is minimal, so why are we worried still?

You can’t really expect a section of a two car train to be locked out of use, though. As I said above I’m amazed GWR are still doing this - on the local side where I am it would be completely untenable on many trains, even with the numbers travelling now let alone as they continue to rise.

 

[The exile]

That's odd then as never come across it before, even in the height of the pandemic you wouldn't have had both carriages locked out.

Virtually all GWR turbos had their very end sections locked out (many had crossed out of yellow hazard tape on the internal doors). Many still do.

 

[DanNCL]

If the company can make reasonable adjustments, why restrict duties?

Because blocking out a chunk of the passenger area on a train that’s packed full of passengers isn’t a reasonable adjustment.

A reasonable adjustment in this case would be exempting said staff member from the requirement to carry out revenue duties, and to facilitate as much of their work as possible to be done from the rear cab.

 

[DelW]

The sticker pictured by the OP (in post 3) seems to have been printed in around 1990, judging by the house brick sized phone (complete with telescopic aerial) that it portrays. No one has used a phone like that in decades. Where did someone find a sticker that old?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s not for the use of the Guard running the aforementioned service, it’s for the use of staff travelling passenger, revenue etc

That’s even worse.
At least the guard is working, but why should an off-duty member of staff get a private compartment just because he works for the railway? Because they’re key workers? What about the several NHS workers I know who get the train - back when COVID was actually an issue they would have been subject to sit in the main saloon - what it is, is railway staff being entitled. The continuation of guards to turn people away in late Jan 22, is pure selfishness.

 

[Stigy]

That’s even worse.
At least the guard is working, but why should an off-duty member of staff get a private compartment just because he works for the railway? Because they’re key workers? What about the several NHS workers I know who get the train - back when COVID was actually an issue they would have been subject to sit in the main saloon - what it is, is railway staff being entitled. The continuation of guards to turn people away in late Jan 22, is pure selfishness.

It’s not for staff travelling off duty, it’s for on-duty staff travelling pass.

As for NHS staff, to be honest, I’m getting as sick about hearing about them as I am Covid now.

 

[43066]

As for NHS staff, to be honest, I’m getting as sick about hearing about them as I am Covid now.

Likewise!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s not for staff travelling off duty, it’s for on-duty staff travelling pass.

As for NHS staff, to be honest, I’m getting as sick about hearing about them as I am Covid now.

Oh don’t get me wrong, so am I, but I’m referring to back in the pandemic when so much as a criticism of the NHS would have subjected you to “cancel culture.”

Nothing will convince me that locking out both ends of the Turbo is acceptable. It was annoying when COVID was dangerous and it’s absolutely infuriating to see now.

 

[Stigy]

Oh don’t get me wrong, so am I, but I’m referring to back in the pandemic when so much as a criticism of the NHS would have subjected you to “cancel culture.”

Nothing will convince me that locking out both ends of the Turbo is acceptable. It was annoying when COVID was dangerous and it’s absolutely infuriating to see now.

In my opinion during lockdowns and throughout the pandemic until we lifted all but a few restrictions, I think it was acceptable (although maybe one end on busier services?). Now though I agree it’s not needed (nice as it is for staff )

 

[43066]

In my opinion during lockdowns and throughout the pandemic until we lifted all but a few restrictions, I think it was acceptable (although maybe one end on busier services?). Now though I agree it’s not needed (nice as it is for staff )

Indeed. And of course it made as good as no difference to passengers given the low numbers being carried.

I can remember a point when even tube trains had the sections of carriages nearest to the cabs cordoned off (pointless tube journeys around London, just to get out of the house, were one of my lockdown hobbies!).

 

[Towers]

That’s even worse.
At least the guard is working, but why should an off-duty member of staff get a private compartment just because he works for the railway? Because they’re key workers? What about the several NHS workers I know who get the train - back when COVID was actually an issue they would have been subject to sit in the main saloon - what it is, is railway staff being entitled. The continuation of guards to turn people away in late Jan 22, is pure selfishness.

As I mentioned previously, part of the reasoning is to allow guards unhindered access to the first set of passenger doors, in order to be able to call at the various stations in the west which have short platforms and at which the guard is required to open and close that single set of doors. As I suggested earlier, this would explain why it involves both ends of the train, which clearly would not be necessary if it was just about providing a staff seating area. It also explains why a similar arrangement is not required on the Turbo fleet still operating LTV routes, where there are no such short platforms, or on other 'West' traction such as the 158s, where the guard has a vestibule behind the cab from which to operate the doors.

On GWR's 80x fleet there was initially a system of taking the first class kitchen car out of public use to allow staff to travel where required as part of their duty, however that was superseded a long time back now by a small number of seats being permanently reserved at the far end of Coach A, when it was decided that the space in the kitchen car was once again needed for first class passengers. So this isn't just staff being precious about expecting somewhere nice to sit, there is a reason for it!

 

[The exile]

As I mentioned previously, part of the reasoning is to allow guards unhindered access to the first set of passenger doors, in order to be able to call at the various stations in the west which have short platforms and at which the guard is required to open and close that single set of doors. As I suggested earlier, this would explain why it involves both ends of the train. It also explains why a similar arrangement is not required on the Turbo fleet still operating LTV routes, where there are no such short platforms, or on other 'West' traction such as the 158s, where the guard has a vestibule behind the cab from which to operate the doors.

On GWR's 80x fleet there was initially a system of taking the first class kitchen car out of public use to allow staff to travel where required as part of their duty, however that was superseded a long time back now by a small number of seats being permanently reserved at the far end of Coach A, when it was decided that the space in the kitchen car was once again needed for first class passengers. So this isn't just staff being precious about expecting somewhere nice to sit, there is a reason for it!

Except there is still full public access to that vestibule.

 

[Towers]

Except there is still full public access to that vestibule.

Not if the guard requests that people vacate it.

How would you propose preventing access? You can't lock it closed otherwise the entire vehicle needs to be locked out of use.

I believe Scotrail are/were doing the same on their 158s, were they not?

 

[Jimini]

Indeed. And of course it made as good as no difference to passengers given the low numbers being carried.

I can remember a point when even tube trains had the sections of carriages nearest to the cabs cordoned off (pointless tube journeys around London, just to get out of the house, were one of my lockdown hobbies!).

To be fair, that was on the Bakerloo line / DLR, where it was necessary to afford the driver access to from the driving cab / front control panel whilst ticking the social distancing box. No cab side doors on either of those for them to access directly off the platform.

 

[Towers]

To be fair, that was on the Bakerloo line / DLR, where it was necessary to afford the driver access to from the driving cab / front control panel whilst ticking the social distancing box. No cab side doors on either of those for them to access directly off the platform.

On my last Bakerloo journey those measures were still in place, have they since been withdrawn?

 

[The exile]

Not if the guard requests that people vacate it.

How would you propose preventing access? You can't lock it closed otherwise the entire vehicle needs to be locked out of use.

I believe Scotrail are/were doing the same on their 158s, were they not?

More suggesting that the argument of allowing guards access to the doors without risk of contact with the public is a bit of a weak argument - especially since revenue duties have resumed.

 

[Towers]

More suggesting that the argument of allowing guards access to the doors without risk of contact with the public is a bit of a weak argument - especially since revenue duties have resumed.

Indeed, a difficult situation to find an agreeable resolution to I would imagine!

That said, there is value in a pragmatic approach of at least reducing contact, if not entirely removing it.

 

[AndrewE]

Nothing new here...
about 6 months ago we got on a 3-car DMU at Arnside after a walk en route back to Lancaster or Preston. Weren't allowed to board the rear coach as the guard was using the front (of 2?) doors.
Already very busy in the 2 front coaches so we walked back through the gangway and sat in the front 1/3 of the rear coach, as there was blue tape further back across the saloon to keep the door free for the guard.
He very aggressively told us to get out, I said "we aren't in your area, we haven't crossed your tape." Response was "You are not allowed in this coach."
Didn't appreciate my response of "Why isn't the tape across the gangway then?"

Small-minded scared individuals are the curse of the railway at the moment.
So different to a guard on a W Yorkshire service I was on N from Leeds to Skipton, I realised I had gone to the door he was using and apologised and offered to walk away to a different door, he said "Don't worry, I have worked right through this and I am sure I am not at risk from you now!" What a difference...

 

[route101]

Yes, still see this on GWR Turbos on the Cardiff to Portsmouth. I didn't see this on the rarer 158s on the route..

 

[43066]

To be fair, that was on the Bakerloo line / DLR, where it was necessary to afford the driver access to from the driving cab / front control panel whilst ticking the social distancing box. No cab side doors on either of those for them to access directly off the platform.

It was the Bakerloo line I was thinking of as it happens! Makes complete sense as you say given the doors. I did also notice it on the DLR.

 

[Wychwood93]

Yes, still see this on GWR Turbos on the Cardiff to Portsmouth. I didn't see this on the rarer 158s on the route..

It seems to vary - last week there was no problem in using the former first class. A table to myself all the way from Southampton to Bristol.

 

[Lewlew]

Still in place and will be until the Mayor decides that social distancing doesn't apply to London anymore

This is about the Bakerloo line (I quoted the post above but it didn't appear)

 

[Parallel]

I use GWR’s Turbos a lot in the West and it seems to depend who the guard is and how busy the service is. I have seen both guards opening the area(s) when the train gets busy, and also guards asking passengers to vacate the sections.

I never understood why both sections needed to be vacated - It’s rare to see more than 4 on-duty members of staff (not including the driver or guard) on one of those trains.

It’s probably less likely to see this in the Thames Valley as first class fares are available on many routes where the Turbos run there.

I don’t think these doors are actually ‘locked’ shut, at least on any services into Wales as I believe this could cause issues in the Severn Tunnel.

 

[Kite159]

As I mentioned previously, part of the reasoning is to allow guards unhindered access to the first set of passenger doors, in order to be able to call at the various stations in the west which have short platforms and at which the guard is required to open and close that single set of doors. As I suggested earlier, this would explain why it involves both ends of the train, which clearly would not be necessary if it was just about providing a staff seating area. It also explains why a similar arrangement is not required on the Turbo fleet still operating LTV routes, where there are no such short platforms, or on other 'West' traction such as the 158s, where the guard has a vestibule behind the cab from which to operate the doors.

On GWR's 80x fleet there was initially a system of taking the first class kitchen car out of public use to allow staff to travel where required as part of their duty, however that was superseded a long time back now by a small number of seats being permanently reserved at the far end of Coach A, when it was decided that the space in the kitchen car was once again needed for first class passengers. So this isn't just staff being precious about expecting somewhere nice to sit, there is a reason for it!

At the stations I can think of which requires the guard to release the local door, it is the door right at the front of the train (Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff & the 3 halts on the Weymouth line, rather than the door at the back.

 

[yorksrob]

I seem to recall that when we had such a system on Northern (it's long since gone) the guard would remove the sign at the back of the train when arriving at Leeds and reintroduce it at the other end of the train when going the other way (happily it seems a long time ago now though !)

 

[Snow1964]

It’s not for the use of the Guard running the aforementioned service, it’s for the use of staff travelling passenger, revenue etc

Even more ridiculous, staff travelling as passengers are passengers who just happen to be employed by same organisation, they are not staff on duty, just passengers using it to get to/from somewhere (which is what other passengers are on train for)

Yes, some may have some sort of split shift, with a repositioning whilst on duty, causing them to be a passenger, but that must be rare and is never going to need a quarter of two coaches for a whole route.

 

[LowLevel]

Even more ridiculous, staff travelling as passengers are passengers who just happen to be employed by same organisation, they are not staff on duty, just passengers using it to get to/from somewhere (which is what other passengers are on train for)

Yes, some may have some sort of split shift, with a repositioning whilst on duty, causing them to be a passenger, but that must be rare and is never going to need a quarter of two coaches for a whole route.

Not true. You're diagrammed to travel on the train, you're at work, you have no choice but to be there and in Wales, where the 16x fleet runs into, there was a different interpretation about duty of care to employees than in England.

I don't actually agree with this daftness and it should be long since consigned to the bin if it ever was appropriate at all, but it is a fact that a traincrew member travelling as passenger on a train as directed isn't off duty.

 

[Towers]

At the stations I can think of which requires the guard to release the local door, it is the door right at the front of the train (Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff & the 3 halts on the Weymouth line, rather than the door at the back.

I think the idea is that staff aren't opening the cab door straight out into a small area full of people, obviously passing through the saloons is unavoidable but they are, admittedly more spacious. A bit like the "don't use the aisle seats" thing I guess, just reduce the risk as much as is reasonably possible on a service where it might be necessary to come in and out several times (i.e. Weymouth etc). On 16x in particular the cab doors open outwards, straight into the seating area, so there is no "margin" as it were if it's full of people the other side!

 

[Kite159]

I seem to recall that when we had such a system on Northern (it's long since gone) the guard would remove the sign at the back of the train when arriving at Leeds and reintroduce it at the other end of the train when going the other way (happily it seems a long time ago now though !)

I can remember being on a Leeds - Blackpool train formed of a 3 coach 195. Rear coach was blocked out of use so all the remaining passengers forced into the front 2 coaches until Bradford where the train reversed direction and the guard refusing to dispatch until everybody in the now rear coach (the front coach on departure from Leeds) shifted to the middle coach.

They didn't even bother removing the "area out of use" barrier in the now leading front coach until some passengers at Halifax ignored it and sat in that area.

Although not as bad as coming back from Cardiff in September time last year, single 166 where the guard had the rear first class area unlocked, at Westbury a member of staff boarded and basically shouted at the passengers to get the hell out of his private area, sending a couple young children into tears as they were quite happy using the tables to do something with a colouring book. The member of staff alighted at warminster.