GWR/LNER IET first class: is it a downgrade?

[whhistle]

We've had seat wibble, slope wibble, diesel wibble, reservations wibble, buffet wibble, paint wibble...

Why wibble ?

And why even use the word "wibble"?
The definition doesn't match the intended use.
Just use "complaint"?

 

[43096]

(thanks, BR, for being too cheap to do a 9-window-bay version of the Mk3 coach for Standard)

I think you mean “sensible”. Given the number of conversions between standard and first and vice versa over the years, going for a common bodyshell was absolutely the right thing to do. It’s not like the Mark 3 has vast acreages of plastic wall like Pendolinos, where in some cases the term “window seat” should be an offence under the Trade Description Act.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you mean “sensible”. Given the number of conversions between standard and first and vice versa over the years, going for a common bodyshell was absolutely the right thing to do. It’s not like the Mark 3 has vast acreages of plastic wall like Pendolinos, where in some cases the term “window seat” should be an offence under the Trade Description Act.

Pendolino and Mk3 windows are a not dissimilar horizontal size and layout. The effect is reduced by the vertical bodysides, lower-backed seats (except GWR) and larger vertical size meaning you can look through the windows on the other side more effectively (for instance).

 

[43096]

Pendolino and Mk3 windows are a not dissimilar horizontal size and layout. The effect is reduced by the vertical bodysides, lower-backed seats (except GWR) and larger vertical size meaning you can look through the windows on the other side more effectively (for instance).

There is a huge difference. There are seats on a 390 where there are vast areas of plastic. There is nothing like that on a Mark 3. Just look at photos, particularly of the all-grey 390 repaints.

 

[broadgage]

Have we had blind related gripes yet? We've had seat wibble, slope wibble, diesel wibble, reservations wibble, buffet wibble, paint wibble, but fair play I think blinds are a new complaint.

There seems to be a rather general view that the new trains are wonderful, and that any complaints about non functioning reservations, underfloor diesel engines, no buffets, and general discomfort are "wibble" and not to be taken seriously.
Others advocates reluctantly admit that DMUs are a bit of downgrade for inter-city services, but state that provision of a buffet, and decent first class is "totally unrealistic" these days.
Yet others blame it all on the department for transport, they might even be right, but a downgrade is still a downgrade no matter if it be done by a government department or by a government appointed train operator.

 

[AM9]

There seems to be a rather general view that the new trains are wonderful, and that any complaints about non functioning reservations, underfloor diesel engines, no buffets, and general discomfort are "wibble" and not to be taken seriously.
Others advocates reluctantly admit that DMUs are a bit of downgrade for inter-city services, but state that provision of a buffet, and decent first class is "totally unrealistic" these days.
Yet others blame it all on the department for transport, they might even be right, but a downgrade is still a downgrade no matter if it be done by a government department or by a government appointed train operator.

There's more to a 'downgrade' than just creature comforts like leather seats, views out of windows and buffets. The Dft is required to meet the ever increasing demand for passenger travel which is in many areas reaching the limits of the infrastructure. There is no short-term fix for those limits (even if there were adequate funds) so something has to give. On long-distance journeys, the presumption is that it is unacceptable to expect passengers to stand for hours at a time, indeed, cluttering the vestibules up with standees and their luggage delays trains and can create safety issues, so nobody gains. So expect the differentiation between standard and 1st class to be more that 1st guarantees a seat (or a refund of the premium in extreme cases). Therefore, 1st class must have some demand management rather than just piling on the frippery.
A similar chage is happening on some main commuter flows where the unacceptable situation of passengers being left at stations has been addressed by vastly increasing safe standing space (e.g. class 700 and 345). In the case of the 700s, 1st class is nothing special but it does offer a guaranteed seat for a premium.
So gradually, as viable paths become saturated, I expect each new generation of train to be maxed out in frequency, then length, then seating capacity, (and in shorter time services, less seats to make room for more standees). A similar thing has already happened on domestic flights where slots are fully utilised.

 

[43096]

There's more to a 'downgrade' than just creature comforts like leather seats, views out of windows and buffets. The Dft is required to meet the ever increasing demand for passenger travel which is in many areas reaching the limits of the infrastructure. There is no short-term fix for those limits (even if there were adequate funds) so something has to give. On long-distance journeys, the presumption is that it is unacceptable to expect passengers to stand for hours at a time, indeed, cluttering the vestibules up with standees and their luggage delays trains and can create safety issues, so nobody gains. So expect the differentiation between standard and 1st class to be more that 1st guarantees a seat (or a refund of the premium in extreme cases). Therefore, 1st class must have some demand management rather than just piling on the frippery.
A similar chage is happening on some main commuter flows where the unacceptable situation of passengers being left at stations has been addressed by vastly increasing safe standing space (e.g. class 700 and 345). In the case of the 700s, 1st class is nothing special but it does offer a guaranteed seat for a premium.
So gradually, as viable paths become saturated, I expect each new generation of train to be maxed out in frequency, then length, then seating capacity, (and in shorter time services, less seats to make room for more standees). A similar thing has already happened on domestic flights where slots are fully utilised.

One way to manage the ever increasing demand - which feels a bit like Gordon Brown's statement on ending boom and bust - is to jack the prices up and dumb down the standards so that passengers stop using the train as it doesn't offer value.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A similar thing has already happened on domestic flights where slots are fully utilised.

No, that's about cutting costs. If it wasn't, there'd be plenty of domestic widebodies.

 

[broadgage]

In the near term, a buffet and about 44 extra seats could be provided on long distance IETs by adding an extra vehicle to a 9 car set to make it 10 car.
A 10 car would fit anywhere that can take a 5+5, so no problem in that respect.
It is an "essential requirement" that an extra vehicle can be added to an IET, So should be easy.
44 more standard class seats.
And a proper hot buffet, not a microbuffet, or a mini buffet, or a static trolley, but a proper buffet that can serve hot snacks like bacon rolls, real coffee, and a good selection of chilled drinks.

There would also be a gain in capacity due to standing THROUGH CHOICE in the buffet car whilst taking refreshment.

Even a cynic like me might forget, or at least forgive, the underfloor engines if the train was longer, gangwayed throughout, and had a proper buffet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There would also be a gain in capacity due to standing THROUGH CHOICE in the buffet car whilst taking refreshment.

That is quite an interesting point - do it more Eurostar style with some standing tables (so taking up about half a coach including counter) and people will choose to stand there and socialise, keeping seats free for others.

 

[broadgage]

That is quite an interesting point - do it more Eurostar style with some standing tables (so taking up about half a coach including counter) and people will choose to stand there and socialise, keeping seats free for others.

Yes, my suggestion would be for a decent sized buffet servery in the middle of the coach, with longitudinal seating at each end. In front of this seating, place relatively small, probably round, tables for the use of those sitting or standing.

 

[westv]

And why even use the word "wibble"?
The definition doesn't match the intended use.
Just use "complaint"?

So we can add posting wibble to the list.

 

[CMRail]

In the near term, a buffet and about 44 extra seats could be provided on long distance IETs by adding an extra vehicle to a 9 car set to make it 10 car.
A 10 car would fit anywhere that can take a 5+5, so no problem in that respect.
It is an "essential requirement" that an extra vehicle can be added to an IET, So should be easy.
44 more standard class seats.
And a proper hot buffet, not a microbuffet, or a mini buffet, or a static trolley, but a proper buffet that can serve hot snacks like bacon rolls, real coffee, and a good selection of chilled drinks.

There would also be a gain in capacity due to standing THROUGH CHOICE in the buffet car whilst taking refreshment.

Even a cynic like me might forget, or at least forgive, the underfloor engines if the train was longer, gangwayed throughout, and had a proper buffet.

I certainly agree about your point for improved catering, but many people do like the trolley option as well: not needing to lug everything up the train to get to there.

Secondly, this thread is about first class and not the future when money grows off trees.

 

[Geoff DC]

My take on it is that as standard is so bad on IETs that even though first is S**t (achy) on them at least it isn't as bad as standard for a long journey

 

[samuelmorris]

What about it? Some part of it I disagree with, but certainly not all of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My take on it is that as standard is so bad on IETs that even though first is S**t (achy) on them at least it isn't as bad as standard for a long journey

I sat down in 1st intending to upgrade. Within about 2 minutes I'd gathered my stuff and moved to Standard. Just not worth it.

 

[Private Baxter]

I sat down in 1st intending to upgrade. Within about 2 minutes I'd gathered my stuff and moved to Standard. Just not worth it.

Agreed. First class is little more than what standard class ought to be, and with limited, if any, catering at a weekend you have to ask yourself just what you're paying for. Pay £10 to upgrade and get a mediocre cup of coffee. Time will tell whether weekday travel will slump, but weekend first has suddenly become a lot less attractive.

 

[yorksrob]

That is quite an interesting point - do it more Eurostar style with some standing tables (so taking up about half a coach including counter) and people will choose to stand there and socialise, keeping seats free for others.

This was certainly true in the HST buffets on the Great Western.

 

[Thunderer]

One word answer to the thread question, based on numerous class 800 1st class journeys - "YES".

 

[superalbs]

I am on it now. I would consider this a downgrade on HST second class too!

Couldn't stop myself having a quiet snicker at just how bad it really is.

To add to it, catering front half only, and announcements stated first to be in a different location to the screens.

Bizarre, and not particularly funny joke.

 

[Failed Unit]

Does anyone know what the accomodation in either class on LNER is going to be like? I know recent trends point to newer stock having less comfortable seating. But didn't Stagecoach (as operator at the time) have the right to choose a better quality specification than the DfT basic specification?

 

[samuelmorris]

Does anyone know what the accomodation in either class on LNER is going to be like? I know recent trends point to newer stock having less comfortable seating. But didn't Stagecoach (as operator at the time) have the right to choose a better quality specification than the DfT basic specification?

Same seats but better covers. Only other difference is red vs green, and buffet vs no buffet. (And fewer 5-car sets, but still some in use).

 

[Failed Unit]

Same seats but better covers. Only other difference is red vs green, and buffet vs no buffet. (And fewer 5-car sets, but still some in use).

Fair enough, the seat covers won't make much difference and I have not seen anything positive about the comfort from FGW users. - It is still to me a long time in the future for me, I didn't realise how far things had moved on. I guess one day I will book on a service and an Azuma will show up and I can judge for myself.

 

[samuelmorris]

Nah they won't make much difference. Make use of the plush HST and Mk4 seating while you can. Before long the only stock out of Kings Cross with padded seats will be the Grand Central 180s. I was quite looking forward to the 800s originally. Having ridden the GWR examples I don't want the old stock to go. I guess this is how it felt for people on the Thameslink route!

 

[Failed Unit]

Nah they won't make much difference. Make use of the plush HST and Mk4 seating while you can. Before long the only stock out of Kings Cross with padded seats will be the Grand Central 180s. I was quite looking forward to the 800s originally. Having ridden the GWR examples I don't want the old stock to go. I guess this is how it felt for people on the Thameslink route!

Yes we do

Be interesting how the First Group (Hull trains and open access London - Edinburgh) seat out their trains. If they get them seated to a decent specification they could have a quiet a marketing ploy over the the franchise operators. For the London - Edinburgh service it is very possible they could exceed the quality of the LNER first seat on thier "standard class" only service.

 

[samuelmorris]

Only if they get a new seat type certified which I think seems unlikely for the size of their order. I suspect if First had any intention of doing better than the DfT standard issue seat, the TPE units would be similarly equipped. As it stands I don't see the ECT units being much different to the TPE ones.

 

[Private Baxter]

I am on it now. I would consider this a downgrade on HST second class too!

Couldn't stop myself having a quiet snicker at just how bad it really is.

To add to it, catering front half only, and announcements stated first to be in a different location to the screens.

Bizarre, and not particularly funny joke.

True, first class at a weekend can be disappointing and not worth the extra. Whilst the incorrect information on the screen can be put down to simple human error, having no catering other than bottles of water is not really good enough. At least it is announced before hand.

 

[w1bbl3]

GW 1st has for as long as I can remember been more driven by the seat (and availability there of) than the service offer, instant coffee from a urn and pre-packages cakes / biscuits / mini pastries really are not worth the uplift in fare and IHMO never have been.

The IET introduction and the consequential increase in standard seating provision kind of makes GW 1st a bit of a misnomer it doesn't get you there any faster, or with a nicer seat and the catering offer seems if anything to have declined. I can remember when HST operated that the trolley would come round after each principle station providing the option for multiple rounds of drinks / snacks etc, now the offer seems to be a customer host comes to your seat after boarding asks what you would like and that is basically it. There are now admittedly complementary and very poorly advertised sandwiches you can request. It will be interesting to see if once GW high speed becomes a total IET operation if the offer improves and makes use of the fully equipped kitchen on every train, e.g. a complementary hot offer appears.

LNER, 1st IMHO seems far more to be driven by discounted 1st advances than full fare sales. They will I suspect be more interesting in terms the offer as they are operationally not gaining or loosing anything, so other than the change of seat have no reason to alter the offer if it works financially.

 

[Private Baxter]

GW 1st has for as long as I can remember been more driven by the seat (and availability there of) than the service offer, instant coffee from a urn and pre-packages cakes / biscuits / mini pastries really are not worth the uplift in fare and IHMO never have been.

The IET introduction and the consequential increase in standard seating provision kind of makes GW 1st a bit of a misnomer it doesn't get you there any faster, or with a nicer seat and the catering offer seems if anything to have declined. I can remember when HST operated that the trolley would come round after each principle station providing the option for multiple rounds of drinks / snacks etc, now the offer seems to be a customer host comes to your seat after boarding asks what you would like and that is basically it. There are now admittedly complementary and very poorly advertised sandwiches you can request. It will be interesting to see if once GW high speed becomes a total IET operation if the offer improves and makes use of the fully equipped kitchen on every train, e.g. a complementary hot offer appears.

LNER, 1st IMHO seems far more to be driven by discounted 1st advances than full fare sales. They will I suspect be more interesting in terms the offer as they are operationally not gaining or loosing anything, so other than the change of seat have no reason to alter the offer if it works financially.

True catering is said to be improving, with the intrpduction of hot meals and as you mention sandwiches, and apparently a Wednesday evening wine offer, or something like that. But otherwise you're right, the first class catering has always been pretty basic.

That said, there is of course an exception; one first class service that is a cut above the rest, which is of course Pullman dining. Though not cheap, the food and service superb. However, again I'm not sure the new first class is the right environment for it. Whilst it is certainly a lot more reliable with their state of the art kitchens, I feel something has been lost with the overall ambience of the experience, something the old trains definitely had. To me it feels more like office party rather than fine restaurant. There are more single seats, which is great for solo diners, but none for couples/friends who want to dine together, unless they want to sit in a cramped seat at the back without a view, or double up with strangers on a table of four, which not every body wants to do.

 

[Chris125]

Captain Deltic has spoken...

"Excellent journey back from Taunton in @GWRHelp @HitachiRailEU Class 802. Seats in First Class OK, probably the best thought out universal acess toilet yet. Ride lively from Reading , but more track than train as the down IC125 was similarly afflicted over the same section."
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