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GWR IETs and GWML Ride Quality

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Sad Sprinter

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I'm currently sat on an IET having shortly left Paddington and enjoying what I can safely say is the most anxiety raising railway journey I've ever had. The train at times is shaking so hard it feels like its going to come apart, even the vestibule doors were having trouble staying closed. It seems the driver is aware of the problem as the train, after reaching linespeed at Ealing, has dared got anywhere near since. It almost seems like the bodyshell isn't attached to the bogie properly so running over points at high speed makes the whole thing shake. What's going on with these trains??
 
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800301

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I'm currently sat on an IET having shortly left Paddington and enjoying what I can safely say is the most anxiety raising railway journey I've ever had. The train at times is shaking so hard it feels like its going to come apart, even the vestibule doors were having trouble staying closed. It seems the driver is aware of the problem as the train, after reaching linespeed at Ealing, has dared got anywhere near since. It almost seems like the bodyshell isn't attached to the bogie properly so running over points at high speed makes the whole thing shake. What's going on with these trains??

I’d suggest you speak to the train manager if you are that concerned rather than posting on a forum
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I'm currently sat on an IET having shortly left Paddington and enjoying what I can safely say is the most anxiety raising railway journey I've ever had. The train at times is shaking so hard it feels like its going to come apart, even the vestibule doors were having trouble staying closed. It seems the driver is aware of the problem as the train, after reaching linespeed at Ealing, has dared got anywhere near since. It almost seems like the bodyshell isn't attached to the bogie properly so running over points at high speed makes the whole thing shake. What's going on with these trains??
Out of interest, are you in a powered vehicle or a trailer?
 

800301

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It's settled down now, but if it starts up again I will. Weird!
Could literally be anything, not even related to the train, as much as I see comments all the time about IET’s, I certainly find the 387 bounce a lot more over the section between PAD and RDG.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Trailer I believe.

I thought that would be the case. The inside-framed lightweight bogies lack longitudinal stiffness and therefore are quite susceptible to being ‘excited’ by poor track quality / pointwork / any other kind of bump. This is exacerbated at high speed when the forces are greater. What you’re experiencing is ‘hunting’ where the wheel moves side to side across the railhead and the hard suspension magnifies the sensation into the passenger compartment. I had a very similar experience on a 9-car yesterday. It’s par for the course with IETs unfortunately. If you want a smoother ride I suggest avoiding the trailer cars - the powered vehicles have much heavier outside framed bogies. It’s the same issue many modern trains have - there is a trade off between ride quality and track wear and currently the track engineers are winning the battle.

(If we had a vertically integrated railway organisation then the cost vs benefit relationship between ride quality and track maintenance would be more balanced.)
 

Sad Sprinter

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Could literally be anything, not even related to the train, as much as I see comments all the time about IET’s, I certainly find the 387 bounce a lot more over the section between PAD and RDG.

I asked - they said it was just the track.
I thought that would be the case. The inside-framed lightweight bogies lack longitudinal stiffness and therefore are quite susceptible to being ‘excited’ by poor track quality / pointwork / any other kind of bump. This is exacerbated at high speed when the forces are greater. What you’re experiencing is ‘hunting’ where the wheel moves side to side across the railhead and the hard suspension magnifies the sensation into the passenger compartment. I had a very similar experience on a 9-car yesterday. It’s par for the course with IETs unfortunately. If you want a smoother ride I suggest avoiding the trailer cars - the powered vehicles have much heavier outside framed bogies. It’s the same issue many modern trains have - there is a trade off between ride quality and track wear and currently the track engineers are winning the battle.

(If we had a vertically integrated railway organisation then the cost vs benefit relationship between ride quality and track maintenance would be more balanced.)

Fantastic response! Thank you.
 

Horizon22

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I'm currently sat on an IET having shortly left Paddington and enjoying what I can safely say is the most anxiety raising railway journey I've ever had. The train at times is shaking so hard it feels like its going to come apart, even the vestibule doors were having trouble staying closed. It seems the driver is aware of the problem as the train, after reaching linespeed at Ealing, has dared got anywhere near since. It almost seems like the bodyshell isn't attached to the bogie properly so running over points at high speed makes the whole thing shake. What's going on with these trains??

The track around Southall and Hayes is also not in a condition conducive to good ride quality. An IET, 387 or even a 345 (running non-stop) seems to feel the same.
 

Carlisle

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The track around Southall and Hayes is also not in a condition conducive to good ride quality. An IET, 387 or even a 345 (running non-stop) seems to feel the same.
Perhaps a rival for Carnforth on the WCML
 
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Leuvenn

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I’d suggest you speak to the train manager if you are that concerned rather than posting on a forum
What on earth compelled you to write this? This is the most passive aggressive thing I have ever read.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I thought that would be the case. The inside-framed lightweight bogies lack longitudinal stiffness and therefore are quite susceptible to being ‘excited’ by poor track quality / pointwork / any other kind of bump. This is exacerbated at high speed when the forces are greater. What you’re experiencing is ‘hunting’ where the wheel moves side to side across the railhead and the hard suspension magnifies the sensation into the passenger compartment. I had a very similar experience on a 9-car yesterday. It’s par for the course with IETs unfortunately. If you want a smoother ride I suggest avoiding the trailer cars - the powered vehicles have much heavier outside framed bogies. It’s the same issue many modern trains have - there is a trade off between ride quality and track wear and currently the track engineers are winning the battle.

(If we had a vertically integrated railway organisation then the cost vs benefit relationship between ride quality and track maintenance would be more balanced.)
I wonder if this is having an adverse impact on safety? I've heard from the maintenance workers that "It's only a matter of time before a disaster occurs". I write as someone who both works on the IETs and uses them fairly frequently
 

Russel

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I’d suggest you speak to the train manager if you are that concerned rather than posting on a forum

This seems to be the default repones on here, I've noticed...

Assuming the train manager is on the same train, I'm sure they will be aware.
 

fgwrich

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The track around Southall and Hayes is also not in a condition conducive to good ride quality. An IET, 387 or even a 345 (running non-stop) seems to feel the same.
It is interesting though, the western did have some rough stretches (predominantly the B&H) before the introduction of the IETs however, reports of rough riding have only really become noticeable with the IETs around. Slough also seems to be a rough area for the GW IETs too, both around both junctions either side of the station.
 

Horizon22

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It is interesting though, the western did have some rough stretches (predominantly the B&H) before the introduction of the IETs however, reports of rough riding have only really become noticeable with the IETs around. Slough also seems to be a rough area for the GW IETs too, both around both junctions either side of the station.

Infrastructure performance has been quite poor - Dolphin Junction (near Slough) has had a number of points failures above what might be an expected average.
 

northernbelle

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It is interesting though, the western did have some rough stretches (predominantly the B&H) before the introduction of the IETs however, reports of rough riding have only really become noticeable with the IETs around. Slough also seems to be a rough area for the GW IETs too, both around both junctions either side of the station.
You're joking aren't you? Some of the HST riding in places was very lively.
When I did my guard's training in the HST era there was much discussion about how extreme the ride had to be before it had to be reported.
 

dk1

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Back in the day there were some spectacularly rough riding sections with certain classes of rolling stock & DMUs. It was well worth the holding on for the rollercoaster ride. We never thought anything of it.
 

devon_belle

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Some bits can be rough but that’s nothing compared to what I’ve felt on the Brighton main line at speed in a 377.
Indeed, plus there's some kicks on the Mole Valley line that will knock your water bottle over. However, 377s are particularly bouncy in general, especially if you're at the ends of the carriage.
 

NSEWonderer

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Nostalgia for some is a tad strong. The HSTs were often at tines just as bumpy on the GWML especially not long after leaving Paddington or Into Pad. The main mitigating things for the HST was the more padding in the seat did help cushion a bit of that plus the heavier body of the hst cars compared to the lighter IETs may have slightly a part to play but it often seems people mention the HST as if it was much more smoother than it really was. Truth is a lot of units would get whacked about at 90mph+ on the current rail quality.
 

800001

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Some bits can be rough but that’s nothing compared to what I’ve felt on the Brighton main line at speed in a 377.
Rode Eastleigh to Waterloo on Saturday on a 444 and the ride in multiple places was shocking!
People literally thrown around in the seats at some very excessive jolts
 

EIKN

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I'm currently sat on an IET having shortly left Paddington and enjoying what I can safely say is the most anxiety raising railway journey I've ever had. The train at times is shaking so hard it feels like its going to come apart, even the vestibule doors were having trouble staying closed. It seems the driver is aware of the problem as the train, after reaching linespeed at Ealing, has dared got anywhere near since. It almost seems like the bodyshell isn't attached to the bogie properly so running over points at high speed makes the whole thing shake. What's going on with these trains??
Not to impune your point, and while not had the pleasure of riding these new trains, going back to before they started , and before I was too ill to work , I had a career in IT technical, it took me far and wide, I had a project, based at little Rissington , and the nearest station was Kingham ( prer redoubling ), I mentioned this because rather than drive and pay the congestion charge or stress of parking , etc etc .
I took the train, I always found that even a HSzt in first class , could be quite ' lively ', I recall feeling a little unnerved, heading toward Kingham from Paddington on a HST set , and it was really noticeably ' lurching ', squealing and squeaking over a lot of track between the start at Paddington, and seemed to carry on for a fair few miles , it wasn't as bad sat in the centre of the coach.
I usually paid then then £10 premium to sit in first class, as it was often much quieter and calming.
But this only magnified , the sounds of what was probably a lot heavier train set , over , clearly rough track , point work and perhaps like some roads, places where the sub base , ( foundations) beneath the ballast had sunk slightly, perhaps allowing the track to drop and be enough it was perceivable from inside the train.
Mostly it was a HST , despite the mad dash on arrival at Kingham to find a door near the platform ( back then the platform was too short for a full length HST).
But it wasn't just the HST, I must be among the few that liked the Adalante class 180 , ( I used them on Hull trains to go home to my then Yorkshire home after my working week ), anyway .
That class of train, although some may disagree, and in first class and second was very smooth ( that said I'm not anywhere near as knowledge as you guys on trains and railways but am very interested).

Anyway the ride again to and from Paddington , got very lively , if anything the 180 did smooth out some parts the HST's , ' lurched over ', ( perhaps a more modern and better sprung and dampened bogie ?) , anyway those units did seem to sway , perhaps more than the HST , it wasn't easy to do a direct comparison, as during the outbound mornings it would be a HST for capacity , the 180's seemed to run later or as a stopper , like the Hull trains , on longer straight track sections , on the Great Western line , it was fine, but again , from Paddington, you could feel a lot of sideways movement , and the squeaks the interior fit and finish , I forgot to add , about the HST that the vestibule door not staying shut on the IET is not unique, it occured each time I was on a HST over rough track.
Sharp bends and sometimes points .
.
My final comparison, would be the time, my business partner and I had taken a very nice smooth ride in the morning on a HST, on our return trip we'd finished early , but the station was rammed, after an earlier incident, we accidentally got directed to the wrong train , and thus were disgusted by it being a class 465 or 466 turbo ,now if you want hard, jumpy , noisy and worrying , that would be it .
Luckily we got off at reading and changed to the correct train.
I must say it was quite haur raising and i remember the poor ticket person , saying when I asked why it was swaying around so much , he said to me that it's down to the age and sheer amount of trains that over time had worn out the track for several miles from the buffers at Paddington.

Now I don't know if when it was electrified , if that track was ever rectified, but it's no surprise, given how busy that line can be.
Also the HST's I recall as a kid in the mid 80's, going south to visit relatives in Wales, just how bumpy and wild the ride could be , it was when they were installing the over head line masts, and track works were happening , the bit between Sheffield and Derby seemed worse , not to mention, most HST's I've ever been on when braking hard , smelt very strongly of burnt rubber.

Sorry for the long reply but I wanted to share my experience of that line , and while I cannot comment on the IET , one thing I would say is, if the Bogies where designed in Japan ( as the AT300)IET like it's class 395 sibling ) are based on the Japanese ' A' train , indeed you see their one is very similar, but the thing is , they have a huge amount of very high speed and quality lines, which have to be smooth .
So I do wonder if it's down to the Bogies not being cushioned enough , or being ' sprung ' enough , a bit like a hard sports saloon suspension, is there no way these trains can have the Bogies modified for greater comfort ?.
If you read in magazines or the books on the HST's so many of the issues spoken of today about the IET/Azuma were levelled at the then new HST sets .

Finally you don't hear of people saying this of the TPE 80X train sets ?.
 

superalbs

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Not to impune your point, and while not had the pleasure of riding these new trains, going back to before they started , and before I was too ill to work , I had a career in IT technical, it took me far and wide, I had a project, based at little Rissington , and the nearest station was Kingham ( prer redoubling ), I mentioned this because rather than drive and pay the congestion charge or stress of parking , etc etc .
I took the train, I always found that even a HSzt in first class , could be quite ' lively ', I recall feeling a little unnerved, heading toward Kingham from Paddington on a HST set , and it was really noticeably ' lurching ', squealing and squeaking over a lot of track between the start at Paddington, and seemed to carry on for a fair few miles , it wasn't as bad sat in the centre of the coach.
I usually paid then then £10 premium to sit in first class, as it was often much quieter and calming.
But this only magnified , the sounds of what was probably a lot heavier train set , over , clearly rough track , point work and perhaps like some roads, places where the sub base , ( foundations) beneath the ballast had sunk slightly, perhaps allowing the track to drop and be enough it was perceivable from inside the train.
Mostly it was a HST , despite the mad dash on arrival at Kingham to find a door near the platform ( back then the platform was too short for a full length HST).
But it wasn't just the HST, I must be among the few that liked the Adalante class 180 , ( I used them on Hull trains to go home to my then Yorkshire home after my working week ), anyway .
That class of train, although some may disagree, and in first class and second was very smooth ( that said I'm not anywhere near as knowledge as you guys on trains and railways but am very interested).

Anyway the ride again to and from Paddington , got very lively , if anything the 180 did smooth out some parts the HST's , ' lurched over ', ( perhaps a more modern and better sprung and dampened bogie ?) , anyway those units did seem to sway , perhaps more than the HST , it wasn't easy to do a direct comparison, as during the outbound mornings it would be a HST for capacity , the 180's seemed to run later or as a stopper , like the Hull trains , on longer straight track sections , on the Great Western line , it was fine, but again , from Paddington, you could feel a lot of sideways movement , and the squeaks the interior fit and finish , I forgot to add , about the HST that the vestibule door not staying shut on the IET is not unique, it occured each time I was on a HST over rough track.
Sharp bends and sometimes points .
.
My final comparison, would be the time, my business partner and I had taken a very nice smooth ride in the morning on a HST, on our return trip we'd finished early , but the station was rammed, after an earlier incident, we accidentally got directed to the wrong train , and thus were disgusted by it being a class 465 or 466 turbo ,now if you want hard, jumpy , noisy and worrying , that would be it .
Luckily we got off at reading and changed to the correct train.
I must say it was quite haur raising and i remember the poor ticket person , saying when I asked why it was swaying around so much , he said to me that it's down to the age and sheer amount of trains that over time had worn out the track for several miles from the buffers at Paddington.

Now I don't know if when it was electrified , if that track was ever rectified, but it's no surprise, given how busy that line can be.
Also the HST's I recall as a kid in the mid 80's, going south to visit relatives in Wales, just how bumpy and wild the ride could be , it was when they were installing the over head line masts, and track works were happening , the bit between Sheffield and Derby seemed worse , not to mention, most HST's I've ever been on when braking hard , smelt very strongly of burnt rubber.

Sorry for the long reply but I wanted to share my experience of that line , and while I cannot comment on the IET , one thing I would say is, if the Bogies where designed in Japan ( as the AT300)IET like it's class 395 sibling ) are based on the Japanese ' A' train , indeed you see their one is very similar, but the thing is , they have a huge amount of very high speed and quality lines, which have to be smooth .
So I do wonder if it's down to the Bogies not being cushioned enough , or being ' sprung ' enough , a bit like a hard sports saloon suspension, is there no way these trains can have the Bogies modified for greater comfort ?.
If you read in magazines or the books on the HST's so many of the issues spoken of today about the IET/Azuma were levelled at the then new HST sets .

Finally you don't hear of people saying this of the TPE 80X train sets ?.
To be honest, I've been on the Japanese AT300, and the ride quality was absolutely shocking there too.

1695031790367.png
JR Kyushu 885 Series
 

NSEWonderer

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Most of Hitachi's stuff outside the UK is decent tho especially ride quality like the JR700 and my Personal fav the JR500. The 395s are also very well built and ride well outside of HS1 specifically. Just shows pay the proper amount of money and things usually are built well(DFT!!). That aside the GWML has been and till works properly done will be lively ride wise on the IETs and thats only slightly worse than the HSTs because of the lighter bodies as a whole plus the seating package the DFT selected.
 
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