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GWR - help please - disputed claim for "compensation for delay"

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GRM

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I wonder if anyone can help, please?

In September, 2017, I travelled from Sherborne, Dorset, to Portsmouth.

I bought my ticket, a standard off-peak day return (senior rail card), at Sherborne station (South Western Railway). I had to change at Salisbury, my intention being to catch the 0933 GWR service to Portsmouth. In the event the service was cancelled due to signalling problems near Bath, and so I caught another SWR train to Southampton, where I changed again to a connecting service to Portsmouth. Due to the cancelled GWR service, I arrived for my meeting one hour later than should have been the case.

I submitted my claim on the basis of the above facts. To cut a long story short, GWR have refused to pay, their argument being, bizarrely, that I was delayed by 21’. This is not true in my case, but I think they are saying that their service, which was recorded as cancelled on the state board at Salisbury, was, in fact, only delayed, and, presumably, arrived in Portsmouth some 21’ late. This might have been the case, but, because I was told that the service was cancelled, I – and others - had left on the only available alternative - SWR - train by the time the so-called cancelled train arrived in Salisbury.

GWR also, oddly, I think, advised me to claim from SWR. This makes no sense to me, as their services were on time.

I know this is ridiculously complicated for something that common sense suggests in clearly GWR’s responsibility. It is only a relatively small sum of money, but, it is, I believe, a matter of principle.

I might be wrong, of course, and so any help/advice appreciated. Thank you.
 
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Haywain

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If your longer delay was caused by wrong information being provided by SWR, it would seem reasonable that you claim from SWR. This may be beneficial to you as they probably have a better Delay Repay arrangement than GWR!
 

GRM

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Thank you Haywain. The only information given was on the Salisbury station arrivals/departures screens. Is the information displayed the responsibility of SWR? As the "train cancelled" information related to a GWR train stuck somewhere near Bath, I would have thought that the info would come from, eg, Network Rail ... ? My main reason for continuing to pursue my claim is that I sense, from the GWR emails I've received, a tendency to push back against my claim at least (eg by asking me to send them the tickets when ... I already had). Anyway, thank you again.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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As with many companies nowadays, they are only too happy to take your money, but returning it when they are supposed to - that they're slow to do and make many problems about. If independent sources (e.g. OpenTrainTimes) suggest that their train really only was late by 21', and not cancelled, then I would agree that your claim would be with the station manager, being SWR presumably.
 

GRM

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Thank you. I will try and check the service details to see if the train's status was changed from Cancelled to Delayed after I had transferred to the alternative service.
 

bb21

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If your longer delay was caused by wrong information being provided by SWR, it would seem reasonable that you claim from SWR. This may be beneficial to you as they probably have a better Delay Repay arrangement than GWR!
I wouldn't be so sure, as it would be nigh on impossible to prove, hence almost certainly no pay-out unfortunately on that front.

As the delay did not involve any SWR service, there is no chance any potential pay-out will be based on the SWR scheme, if at all.

My strong suspicion is that the service ran fast, hence "cancelled" which is correct on the departure board, meaning it made up time en route but obviously no good to people at intermediate stations, in which case the calculation as explained in the first post stands. Any pay-out will be based on the GWR scheme.
 

bb21

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On second thoughts, if the journey were back in September then I doubt open source sites have data stretching back that far. If you can post your journey details then I may be able to have a look at work tomorrow to see if I can find any clues.
 

IanXC

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It's also possible that the service was cancelled and reinstated, causing the apparent disparity.

I wouldn't discount the possibility that the information provided at Salisbury was incorrect.

As bb21 has said with the specific journey details it may be possible for those with suitable access to clear this up.
 

GRM

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Dear All

Thank you. My journey was actually on 31 August, 2017 (my mistake). I was due to catch the 0933 GWR service to Portsmouth Harbour. Although the emails I've had from GWR in realtion to my claim refer to the train being 21' late (ie, by defintion, not cancelled), I'm 99.99% certain the state board listed the service as cancelled - otherwise why would I, and others, have got on the SWR Southampton slow train that was due to depart after the GWR service? I have tried to register with a site called Raildar, which gives historical data for 12 months, but, for some reason, "it" won't let me (I've asked for help).

Once agian, thank you (and yes, I've got a bee in my bonnet about this!).
 

bb21

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Can I just clarify which exact station you were travelling to? Portsmouth Harbour, Portsmouth & Southsea, or Fratton?
 

GRM

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It was Portsmouth Harbour station.
Regards, and thanks ...
 

bb21

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Did you manage to get to Harbour on rail or did you end up making your own way from Southsea?
 

GRM

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In the end I walked from Portsmouth and Southsea station because I was late. I can't remeber now, but I think I did this because the (Southern?) train I caught from Southampton was running late (my meeting venue was near the Harbour station, and so I wouldn't have got off at P & S/sea if the train was running to time).
 

bb21

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Right, I've had a look and I have some good news I hope.

In my professional opinion I strongly suspect they got it wrong so I would recommend that you take it back to them for reconsideration.

While I cannot be 100% certain (but should be 95%+ good), there is no record of any GWR arrival at Portsmouth Harbour between 1030 and 1215. The previous recorded arrival was at 1023 of the train booked an hour earlier and the one after was at 1215 of the train booked an hour behind. There is no record of anything turning at Southsea, nor Southampton.

Your train was recorded as cancelled at Bristol Temple Meads due to a points failure near Bath. Return journey (1123 ex-Harbour) was recorded as having started at Westbury. If an additional journey were run in the path of the cancelled train by utilising a spare unit at Westbury, I would be astonished if it ran without a schedule.

As the 1033 was delayed by around a similar margin to the one in their response (small difference possibly explained by the WTT/GBTT differential), it is possible that could be a cause for a possible mistake in the assessment of your case.

The above also concludes that if you contacted SWR Customer Relations about this case, it will simply be sent back to GWR. As far as the industry database is concerned, the service was cancelled at Bristol without a replacement so there is no case to answer in respect of information on the PIS boards at Salisbury.

From what I can see you would have ended up on the 0956 SWR Romsey (via Southampton) service, arriving at Southampton Central at 1037. The Southern service would have departed at 1032 so your next connection would have been the 1044 SWR service to Portsmouth & Southsea, arriving at 1142. Given that the booked arrival time of your itinerary at Harbour would have been 1052 (give or take a couple of minutes as I'm looking at Working Timetable times), and there wasn't a connection getting you to Harbour earlier than 1203 (give or take a couple of minutes), I would say you are entitled to compensation for a 60-minute delay, which is 25% of your return fare. I wouldn't mention that you bailed at Southsea as it just complicates matters unnecessarily. (This may be tricky if your original claim was to Southsea only, as the delay to Southsea would have been under 60 minutes, so no compensation. Morally speaking, if your booking were to Harbour - ideally with evidence of an itinerary of some form printed on the day or with the booking but not essential - then you are entitled to compensation based on delays at Harbour.)

I would therefore go back to them and ask for an explanation as to how they arrived at the 21-minute delay, and request that the case is reconsidered, if I were you.

There is a very small possibility that something did run and was not recorded in the system, just saying, but very very unlikely.
 

GRM

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Blimey! Wow! Thank you very much. I will use the information you've very kindly provided to reinforce my case. Is there an offical source I can quote for the info you've given me, please (eg how would I have found out that the service was cancleed at Bristol TM)? Thanks again.
 

bb21

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Unfortunately I don't think such information is available publicly.

However you are welcome to quote information I have provided here to GWR to support your case. Just please bear in mind that I am unable to provide 100% assurance, as it is possible that they did perform the calculation correctly albeit a small possibility, but it should hopefully provide some backing to your case and help you obtain suitable explanation from them if that were the case.
 

island

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It’s also worth being aware that GWR doesn’t pay out for delays/cancellations outside the control of the rail industry.
 

GRM

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Thanks all. I assume that signal failures are not considered to be, "... outside the control of the industry"?
 

bb21

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They are not outside the control of the industry.
 

GRM

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Dear All

Thank you for your help. Today, having pursued my claim since the end of August, I received a letter of apology, and two £25 vouchers. Although broadly satisfied with the amount of money, I cannot help but wonder if the claim process is deliberatively lengthy and obstructive (ie ask for more information – even though the information requested had already been supplied – deny the claim using false data, try to pass the buck etc)? Does anyone have evidence that this might be the case, or have I just had a bad experience?

Thanks again. A win!
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Dear All

Thank you for your help. Today, having pursued my claim since the end of August, I received a letter of apology, and two £25 vouchers. Although broadly satisfied with the amount of money, I cannot help but wonder if the claim process is deliberatively lengthy and obstructive (ie ask for more information – even though the information requested had already been supplied – deny the claim using false data, try to pass the buck etc)? Does anyone have evidence that this might be the case, or have I just had a bad experience?

Thanks again. A win!

Are you happy with vouchers rather than cash?
 

najaB

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Does anyone have evidence that this might be the case, or have I just had a bad experience?
I think you've just had a bad experience. I've made many claims and never had any difficulty getting what I was due.
 
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