GWR fleet procurement

[fgwrich]

A lot of speculation here! But in an ideal world they'd go on Cardiff-Pompey, with everything else filtering west. As much as I love 150's, they are showing their age now, could even put them on the Cornish branches in retro liveries as "Heritage" units now lol

Lots of armchair / crayon planning in evidence here!

Diagram-wise the Cardiff-Pompey route might be relatively self-contained but it’s very short of ideal in the sense that;
- Passenger flows are not suited to end-vestibuled stock
- Multiple working ideally needs through gangways
- Several diagrams start/end Fratton, so cycling sets through St Philips Marsh is awkward. Not great for a fleet with known reliability issues!

Barnstaple/Okehampton would be doable but potentially issues with short platforms? Barny also needs 3-car units to meet peak loadings, so would depend which 175s are available. If based out of Laira this would create a lot of ECS moves as those diagrams are Exeter based and diagram cycling is designed to rotate sets through SPM, not Laira.

It might happen but I can see real operational difficulties coming along quickly if GWR do get 175s. This could turn into a ‘be careful what you wish for!’ situation with hindsight.

The problem with trying to use the 175s to replace the 150s really is what routes could a 175 do that a 150 can. I really cannot see GWR trying to clear them for Falmouth, St Ives, Looe or Gunnislake in all honestly, whereas a 150 is your go anywhere, Jack of all trades unit.

As for Cardiff - Portsmouth, while I get the point regarding depot and stabling, worrying about gangwayed stock has rather changed since the introduction of the Turbos on the route - if they can operate as a 5 car, I don’t see why the 175s shouldn’t be able to be operated that way either. End doors may be an issue, but surely the biggest area where that is a problem is the Westbury / Bath / Bristol corridor, whereas the Portsmouth end seems to cope reasonably well. That could / should be solved with Turbos working the all stations, while the 175s work the faster services.

I just feel a depot like SPM could be made to concentrate on the fleet and bring them up to scratch - they’ve lost a chunk of their work and while Laira has too, SPM has the capability to be a single point depot for the fleet whereas Laira will still have overhauls / stabling and some IET work.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The problem with trying to use the 175s to replace the 150s really is what routes could a 175 do that a 150 can. I really cannot see GWR trying to clear them for Falmouth, St Ives, Looe or Gunnislake in all honestly, whereas a 150 is your go anywhere, Jack of all trades unit.

But who says it has to be direct replacement? A 158 can do all of them, right? It's certainly done the first two several times lately. If 175s end up on current 158 work, bearing in mind Turbos can't work with 158s either so their lack of interoperability doesn't come into play here, there's not much of an issue. And the end door whines doesn't work as 158s have them too

I also reinstate my point that end doors were only unsuitable for the Portsmouth services because 158s were used in three carriage formations. The few times I get on a 5 car 158 formation there is no trouble at all. If 175s were almost always paired on the route then I don't think there'd be an enormous issue, especially now there's more trains per hour between Bristol and Salisbury. And you could always diagram a pair of Turbos for the busiest Bristol peak service.

 

[fgwrich]

But who says it has to be direct replacement? A 158 can do all of them, right? It's certainly done the first two several times lately. If 175s end up on current 158 work, bearing in mind Turbos can't work with 158s either so their lack of interoperability doesn't come into play here, there's not much of an issue. And the end door whines doesn't work as 158s have them too

I also reinstate my point that end doors were only unsuitable for the Portsmouth services because 158s were used in three carriage formations. The few times I get on a 5 car 158 formation there is no trouble at all. If 175s were almost always paired on the route then I don't think there'd be an enormous issue, especially now there's more trains per hour between Bristol and Salisbury. And you could always diagram a pair of Turbos for the busiest Bristol peak service.

A 158 certainly can’t do the Gunnislake or Looe Valley branches. And they’re pretty wasteful on the Falmouth branch too - we go on about stock with the wrong door locations on Cardiff - Portsmouth on here, but sticking a 158 on the busy Falmouth branch is just as bad, there’s a lot of student traffic along that line.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A 158 certainly can’t do the Gunnislake or Looe Valley branches. And they’re pretty wasteful on the Falmouth branch too - we go on about stock with the wrong door locations on Cardiff - Portsmouth on here, but sticking a 158 on the busy Falmouth branch is just as bad, there’s a lot of student traffic along that line.

Yes I wasn't sure about those other two. Who's to say the 150s need to be displaced by the incoming stock though, if they need it to stop stock shortages? 150, 158, 165, 166, 175, 800 and 802 is certainly an inconsistent pick n mix of stock on Regional routes, but whatever Churchward brings can always wipe them all out (bar IET) with something uniform.

 

[The exile]

but whatever Churchward brings can always wipe them all out (bar IET) with something uniform.

Otherwise known as a chimaera that is universal only in its unsuitability! What is desperately needed is compatibility - something that was achieved with nearly all 1st generation dmus.

 

[RPI]

I agree about 150's and as far as we're aware, anything brought in will be to bolster the existing fleet, I was just wibbling away when I suggested 150 replacement, but looking at the bigger picture.

158's aren't ideal for branch work other than the Okehampton/Barnstaple where the majority of passengers travel end to end, 158's aren't cleared for Newquay (always found that bizarre when IET's, Voyagers and HST's are cleared), Looe or Gunnislake.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

158's aren't cleared for Newquay (always found that bizarre when IET's, Voyagers and HST's are cleared)

That is certainly odd.

 

[Towers]

What’s the door operation on 175s, are they full guard control - i.e. open and close?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What’s the door operation on 175s, are they full guard control - i.e. open and close?

It was at TfW, unfortunately. TfW (and WMT) guards take a notoriously long time to do it too, but it was always far faster on the 175s than the other stock due to the extremely slick way the rear cab door opens and closes.

The passenger doors also fly open in an impressively silent and smooth way, quite the opposite of a Voyager door which almost causes me pain the way it clumsily draaaags open. This reduced dwell times quite nicely for a train with end doors.

 

[Towers]

It was at TfW, unfortunately. TfW (and WMT) guards take a notoriously long time to do it, too, but it was always far faster on the 175s than the other stock due to the extremely slick way the rear cab door opens and closes.

And with door control panels at the saloon doors, as well as the cabs?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And with door control panels at the saloon doors, as well as the cabs?

I don't believe so no, but @craigybagel or @sd0733 would be far better suited to answer that.

 

[Towers]

I don't believe so no, but @craigybagel or @sd0733 would be far better suited to answer that.

That’ll cause major issues with their use in the west country then (or indeed even on the Weymouth and some Portsmouth runs); local door controls are required for short platforms. It’s doable as a modification, as per the Turbos, but it’s a significant expense and would take a while to get them all modded.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Out of interest, what does a leasing co get out of concentrating all of one engine type at one TOC, doesn’t seem immediately obvious what difference it makes to them? On a fleet the age of the 158s all the maintenance is sorted by the TOC anyway?

The 175s (leased by Angel) were based at Chester and maintained by manufacturer (old) Alstom there since new.
It's debateable whether there is now maintenance capability left as the Chester depot is now with CAF for the 197s.
FGW did maintain their 180s when they operated them.
15x have always been TOC-maintained.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That’ll cause major issues with their use in the west country then (or indeed even on the Weymouth and some Portsmouth runs); local door controls are required for short platforms. It’s doable as a modification, as per the Turbos, but it’s a significant expense and would take a while to get them all modded.

They had to lock out the rear unit of double /1 formations on the Marches for this reason. Outrageously, PISs continued to tell customers their service was “Formed of 6 coaches.”

 

[12LDA28C]

When there are no landslips etc, what’s Chiltern’s current stock utilisation like? Could they, for instance, provide the standby unit for Greenford once the fast charge trial starts? If so - there’s the first one.

Chiltern don't have any spare capacity in their fleet and even if they did, why would they supply a standby unit for a service run by another TOC?

 

[FGW_DID]

Chiltern don't have any spare capacity in their fleet and even if they did, why would they supply a standby unit for a service run by another TOC?

It would be on hire and they would be getting paid for it. We’ve had a Chiltern Turbo on hire before:

165002 sits in Reading TCD (2014)

 

[Towers]

They had to lock out the rear unit of double /1 formations on the Marches for this reason. Outrageously, PISs continued to tell customers their service was “Formed of 6 coaches.”

GWR however call at a number of locations across their network where it’s quite literally one door only; even a full coach doesn’t fit let alone a whole unit! So some modifications would very definitely be required. Guard controls enabling just one individual set of doors to be opened was retrofitted to all 165/166 units at GWR to enable their use beyond the Thames Valley, so a similar setup would be required duly enabling release of the end-most doors on a 175. This does also bring the advantage of giving guards more flexibility to be out and about within the train and still able to dispatch (although it’s a long way short of a 158 etc with controls at every door), rather than being tied to the back cab at every station.

Anyway; time will tell!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

GWR however call at a number of locations across their network where it’s quite literally one door only; even a full coach doesn’t fit let alone a whole unit! So some modifications would very definitely be required. Guard controls enabling just one individual set of doors to be opened was retrofitted to all 165/166 units at GWR to enable their use beyond the Thames Valley, so a similar setup would be required duly enabling release of the end-most doors on a 175. This does also bring the advantage of giving guards more flexibility to be out and about within the train and still able to dispatch (although it’s a long way short of a 158 etc with controls at every door), rather than being tied to the back cab at every station.

Anyway; time will tell!

175s have worked the Heart of Wales line which obviously have some very, very weeny platforms, so something's clearly possible.

 

[Towers]

175s have worked the Heart of Wales line which obviously have some very, very weeny platforms, so something's clearly possible.

That’s interesting; yes they must have something then!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

And with door control panels at the saloon doors, as well as the cabs?

I don't believe so no, but @craigybagel or @sd0733 would be far better suited to answer that.

175s do have Door Panels at some doors, I believe one on each side per coach.

 

[fgwrich]

You can always have a look for yourself on the Angel Trains website (though don't forget the ones behind the cab will likely be located in the cab) with the walkthrough tool.

Class 175 – Angel Trains

angeltrains.co.uk

 

[WarrenTManager]

Out of interest, what does a leasing co get out of concentrating all of one engine type at one TOC, doesn’t seem immediately obvious what difference it makes to them? On a fleet the age of the 158s all the maintenance is sorted by the TOC anyway?

And the 165/166 are Perkins as well

 

[sd0733]

175s do have Door Panels at some doors, I believe one on each side per coach.

Its a long while since worked one but yes theres panels in the cab and there are also intermediate panels in the vestibule at the non driving end of the 2 cars so that theres always a panel for each side in each pair of vestibules
The centre cars also had panels but if I'm being honest I'm struggling to remember where they were positioned off the top of my head.
The intermediate panels allow local door operation so that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[craigybagel]

They had to lock out the rear unit of double /1 formations on the Marches for this reason. Outrageously, PISs continued to tell customers their service was “Formed of 6 coaches.”

It wasn't the lack of local door controls that caused issues with multiple sets on the Marches, it was the lack of a proper SDO system. There were too many platforms that couldn't take more than a 4 car set, and you could only lock out entire units not individual coaches.

175s called at platforms that required local door only operation every day - several along the North Wales coast, and also Prees and Yorton for 3 car sets.

Its a long while since worked one but yes theres panels in the cab and there are also intermediate panels in the vestibule at the non driving end of the 2 cars so that theres always a panel for each side in each pair of vestibules
The centre cars also had panels but if I'm being honest I'm struggling to remember where they were positioned off the top of my head.
The intermediate panels allow local door operation so that wouldn't be an issue.

The centre car of the 3 car sets mirrored the 2 car sets - the leading door on the left side of the car in the direction of travel had a panel.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It wasn't the lack of local door controls that caused issues with multiple sets on the Marches, it was the lack of a proper SDO system. There were too many platforms that couldn't take more than a 4 car set, and you could only lock out entire units not individual coaches.

175s called at platforms that required local door only operation every day - several along the North Wales coast, and also Prees and Yorton for 3 car sets.

The centre car of the 3 car sets mirrored the 2 car sets - the leading door on the left side of the car in the direction of travel had a panel.

I've used all 27 175s many, many times, but always at stations such as Cardiff, Newport, Llandudno Jct, Chester, Manchester, Crewe, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Carmarthen, Swansea, etc. where the doors have been opened from the cab every time without fail, so that's probably why I assumed there were no controls at the doors. Thanks for the info.

 

[The exile]

It would be on hire and they would be getting paid for it. We’ve had a Chiltern Turbo on hire before:

165002 sits in Reading TCD (2014)

View attachment 150673

And quite apart from that, as things now are, if the DfT tells them to jump, the answer is “how high?”

 

[sd0733]

It wasn't the lack of local door controls that caused issues with multiple sets on the Marches, it was the lack of a proper SDO system. There were too many platforms that couldn't take more than a 4 car set, and you could only lock out entire units not individual coaches.

175s called at platforms that required local door only operation every day - several along the North Wales coast, and also Prees and Yorton for 3 car sets.

The centre car of the 3 car sets mirrored the 2 car sets - the leading door on the left side of the car in the direction of travel had a panel.

Thought that was the case then started doubting myself as wrote it!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It would be on hire and they would be getting paid for it. We’ve had a Chiltern Turbo on hire before:

165002 sits in Reading TCD (2014)

View attachment 150673

Less than ten years ago, I can't believe I never knew that! It can't have worked very many passenger services there or stayed around for long. I live very close to a couple of the North Downs line stations.

 

[craigybagel]

I've used all 27 175s many, many times, but always at stations such as Cardiff, Newport, Llandudno Jct, Chester, Manchester, Crewe, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Carmarthen, Swansea, etc. where the doors have been opened from the cab every time without fail, so that's probably why I assumed there were no controls at the doors. Thanks for the info.

No problem. I'm not surprised, they tended to be used where you had lots of stations close together and a guard doing revenue duties wouldn't have time to get back to the rear cab. It was a lot easier to do dispatch from the cab.

As well as stations with short platforms, it was also a requirement to use them at stations with severe curves on the platform where dispatch needed to be done from the middle, like Earlestown.

Thought that was the case then started doubting myself as wrote it!

I just checked my records and it's only 3½ months since I last drove one - it already feels like so much longer and that I've forgotten nearly everything!

 

[JonathanH]

Less than ten years ago, I can't believe I never knew that! It can't have worked very many passenger services there or stayed around for long. I live very close to a couple of the North Downs line stations.

They seen to have done Greenford, to enable the two 150/0s to go west - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...nges-from-18th-may.100320/page-4#post-1859153 - can't say I had first hand recollection of this though.