• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

GWR Escalation through customer services -- Can it ever be achived?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
From memory of this its the registered keeper who is still liable under the byelaws. Please don't think this is the same as private car parks as TOCs can and do have ppcs act as their agents and they can use the bylaws to prosecute

As far as I'm aware it's the driver who is made liable under the Byelaws. I could be wrong but that's what I think it's the case.

PoFA, the usual way that 'keeper liability' is achieved in England and Wales, specifically excludes land under statutory control from its relevant car parking provisions. This is why clamping on a Byelaw-controlled car park even on behalf of a private company such as APCOA would be legal, but attempting to recover charges from the vehicle keeper would, AFAIK, be unenforceable if challenged.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,821
As far as I'm aware it's the driver who is made liable under the Byelaws. I could be wrong but that's what I think it's the case.

you had best double check that then as I believe you are wrong - I seem to remember a FOI about this a while back too.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
From memory of this its the registered keeper who is still liable under the byelaws. Please don't think this is the same as private car parks as TOCs can and do have ppcs act as their agents and they can use the bylaws to prosecute

Having had a casual refresh/browse of the 2005 Byelaws, I think Byelaw 14 is the only applicable one. This specifies that the person in charge (driver) of a vehicle must not fail to comply with signage, cause a hindrance, fail to comply with instructions, or fail to pay the appropriate fee for parking &c. - as per Byelaw 14(1), 14(2), 14(3) - breach of these rules can result in prosecution in the usual way and with the usual maximum penalties (Byelaw 24(1)).

Meanwhile, the owner of a vehicle can be made to pay for costs incurred in clamping and/or removing and/or subsequently storing a vehicle left on property where the Byelaws apply (Byelaw 14(4)) (interestingly, the driver cannot but it would be somewhat of a moot point if the driver wants to recover/de-disable the vehicle). However, no provision is made for prosecuting the owner as far as I can tell, as there is not a rule that they 'shall' or 'shall not' do something, merely that they 'shall be liable', implying that there would be a civil debt.

Therefore, as far as I can tell, there are no legitimate grounds to obtain the Keeper's details from the DVLA, because being the Keeper of a vehicle is not the same as owning it, and the Byelaws specify that the driver or the owner is liable, not the Keeper. PoFA couldn't apply, both because the land is under statutory control (Byelaws) and because the owner or driver is liable, not the Keeper.

So unless the TOC/their agent know the identity of the driver, they have no way of prosecuting in the first place, and unless the vehicle has been clamped, removed and/or stored, there is no way the owner can be liable for anything as provision is only made for liability for these 'costs', not any parking charges. This is assuming they even know who the owner is, which, as stated, cannot be inferred merely from being the Keeper (for example, on a lease vehicle the lease company would be the owner but the lessee may be the Keeper).

So, because of the wording in the Byelaws and PoFA and their intersection, I can't see how the Keeper of a vehicle could be liable for any regular parking charges incurred on land under Byelaw control. On adjoining private land not falling under Byelaw control, as may often be the case for railway car parks, the Keeper could legitimately be pursued if PoFA, the relevant Accredited Trade Association's Code of Practice and all other laws (including planning permission, advertising consent, Consumer Rights Act, Consumer Contracts Regulations etc.) are adhered to, and if the contractual elements are acceptable (signage visible and sufficient, contractual terms not unenforceable e.g. by being forbidding or penalty being in small print).

Obviously, this is a high bar to pass, and while there are some PPCs that manage, or rather, bother, to pass it (eg ParkingEye), most others fail at one point or another, for lack of effort or purely thinking they don't have to fully comply. Hence parking charges in such car parks can be 'avoided' if controlling equipment like automatic barriers is not in operation. With Byelaw controlled land, you risk being clamped or towed and having to pay extortionate release fees, or the driver being prosecuted if identified, but neither the driver nor the owner could legitimately be pursued for any regular parking charges; the owner could be made to pay for clamping, towing or storage, and the driver could be prosecuted, but if the ToC/agent doesn't have the details then both will be impossible. Well, of course someone will have to pay release fees but it needn't be the owner.

Now, of course, I could be entirely wrong in this view, being untrained and unqualified in any legal capacity, but that is my reading of the situation (in England and Wales).
 
Last edited:

thejuggler

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2016
Messages
1,651
#33 is the issue in a nutshell, which is why you never state or allude to who was the driver when appealing railway tickets.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
#33 is the issue in a nutshell, which is why you never state or allude to who was the driver when appealing railway tickets.

Yes, in any case it is best only to confirm you are the keeper. You shouldn't specify who the driver is or who the owner is unless they are someone else and you have a good reason for making them liable.

Though of course for railway "tickets" on Byelaw controlled land there's no reason why someone in the capacity of Keeper should be contacted or their details obtained in the first place. And no such "tickets" are enforceable anyway AFAICT.
 
Last edited:

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,821
Well I guess ill leave it at that because I'm not going to try and read through all the bumpf as I have no real time and I'm certainly not legally trained to proffer such an insight into it all as you seem to be.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,821
After a quick skim of said byelaw it appears ForTheLoveOf missed a little bit out from his/her reading of it

(4) In England and Wales (i) The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.

My bold for emphasis and link to the pdf here
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
After a quick skim of said byelaw it appears ForTheLoveOf missed a little bit out from his/her reading of it



My bold for emphasis and link to the pdf here


True, I've missed that. However, it still doesn't change much - they have no entitlement to DVLA keeper data and as keeper ≠ owner, and as there is no central register of vehicle owners, they wouldn't find it of any use anyway.

So without an admission of who the driver is they will struggle to prosecute. Proving ownership could be difficult for a non-leased vehicle if invoices legitimately (or otherwise) disappear.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,821
Look - this isn't pepipoo or mse forum you are dealing with here and its probably best that without knowing what you are on about for certain you probably don't post what you may know as a certain.

And you really shouldn't be bringing 'what ifs' into the situation either - it doesn't help the OP and are useless
 

falcon

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
425
True, I've missed that. However, it still doesn't change much - they have no entitlement to DVLA keeper data and as keeper ≠ owner, and as there is no central register of vehicle owners, they wouldn't find it of any use anyway.

So without an admission of who the driver is they will struggle to prosecute. Proving ownership could be difficult for a non-leased vehicle if invoices legitimately (or otherwise) disappear.
The railway do have access to DVLA.
There is a saying " If in a hole stop digging".
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
The DVLA do not hold details of who owns vehicles. There is no such central register. They hold details of who the keeper of a vehicle is. The Byelaws don't specify any obligations or punishments for keepers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top