GWR Class 800

[trebor79]

And as I posted some time ago, Hitachi were horrified that the DfT specified those seats. No point criticising Hitachi for DfT decisions.

 

[yorkie]

Please, no more discussion regarding seating. Please use an existing thread (if there is one) or create a new one (if there isn't) to discuss seating.

I have moved some posts from this thread into: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/telegraph-article-regarding-ironing-board-seating.174981/

 

[Railperf]

Where are we with regards to 800/802 deliveries?
How many of each type have been yet to be delivered / have been delivered / accepted / available for service? And are we expecting the full GWR fleet to be in service by May?

 

[Siemens Staines]

800311 is now in passenger service so AFAIK the only 800/3 fleet left to work passenger trains are 301,312,320,321 but willing to stand corrected on that point if any of these four are now in use.

 

[Japan0913]

Where are we with regards to 800/802 deliveries?
How many of each type have been yet to be delivered / have been delivered / accepted / available for service? And are we expecting the full GWR fleet to be in service by May?

Great Western Railway delays Newbury IET introduction for CCTV modifications
04/12/2018
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...wbury-iet-introduction-for-cctv-modifications

This is the last delivery?

 

[Thunderer]

The seats are pretty much rubbish on Class 800 (thanks DfT) for anything longer than 30 minutes as with most new rolling stock, but for an Inter City train it's disgusting! First class is laughable and the interior is pretty much rubbish, garish green bits, way to bright/harsh lighting too many cheap plastics with rattles and squeaks, the ride quality is not the best and the exterior is pretty much Javelin but longer so nothing special and the exterior doors should have been flush plug fitting.

The tech is pretty good though but not what was needed.

I feel so sorry for GWR long distance passengers.

Inter City train travel used to be enjoyable in the UK but not so much now.

Sorry for my little rant again!

Spot on. I couldn't have put it better myself. Passengers are just fleeced and treated with contempt. Our Railways are all about greed and nothing else. I've been a Railway fan since the mid 1970's and travelling anywhere now is no pleasure, its a chore. IEP is the final straw for me. I very rarely use the Railways now unless Its absolutely necessary and I'm sure a lot more people will start to think the same way, which is upsetting to say as a lifelong Railway Enthusiast/Fan.

 

[Geoff DC]

What is even worse if you book 1st Class on GWR IET it is normally the car with the screaming motors underneath rather than the Driving/kitchen car which is much quieter & better - even though not a patch on anything that has gone before & definitely not worth the 1st class surcharge (although steerage is absolutely awful for a 5+hr journey)

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is even worse if you book 1st Class on GWR IET it is normally the car with the screaming motors underneath rather than the Driving/kitchen car which is much quieter & better - even though not a patch on anything that has gone before & definitely not worth the 1st class surcharge (although steerage is absolutely awful for a 5+hr journey)

Many people don't care about the motors. I prefer the high floor coaches because the window is at a better level.

 

[Geoff DC]

Many people don't care about the motors. I prefer the high floor coaches because the window is at a better level.

I think you'll find if they are travelling from Cornwall to London they don't like the noise & vibration - until the IETs, train carriages to London from Cornwall used to glide along and were virtually silent, such that in the dark it was often impossible to feel what direction you were going

 

[trebor79]

The motors sound quite cool to my ears. And the noise disappears above about 50mph.

Other than the item we are no longer allowed to mention, I thought it was a very pleasant train to travel on for a couple of hours. The performance was also pretty astonishing.

Still haven't been on one with working seat reservations though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you'll find if they are travelling from Cornwall to London they don't like the noise & vibration - until the IETs, train carriages to London from Cornwall used to glide along and were virtually silent, such that in the dark it was often impossible to feel what direction you were going

Wha? Did you ride different HSTs from me?

 

[samuelmorris]

To be honest I prefer the ride quality. HSTs had a habit of lurching around at low speed and I'd take low speed traction motor noise over the squealing gangway connectors of Mk3s any day of the week. Reliability may still be poor but 395s aren't that bad so I'm confident that will resolve itself eventually. It's just shame about, well, you know :P

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest I prefer the ride quality. HSTs had a habit of lurching around at low speed and I'd take low speed traction motor noise over the squealing gangway connectors of Mk3s any day of the week. Reliability may still be poor but 395s aren't that bad so I'm confident that will resolve itself eventually. It's just shame about, well, you know :P

I've never quite understood why people hold Mk3s up as some kind of benchmark for ride. They have a noticeable side to side sway, can be a bit bouncy and make an almighty bang with visible body deformation when something passes at speed (maybe less so on the GWR due to the wider loading gauge). Their one redeeming feature is that they aren't Mk4s, which at times belong in the Pacer school of ride quality.

To me the ride benchmarks are the Class 158 for a lower-speed DMU, and the Class 221 for a 125mph vehicle. The Class 800 is certainly up with both of those in my view.

 

[E_Reeves]

I've never quite understood why people hold Mk3s up as some kind of benchmark for ride. They have a noticeable side to side sway, can be a bit bouncy and make an almighty bang with visible body deformation when something passes at speed (maybe less so on the GWR due to the wider loading gauge). Their one redeeming feature is that they aren't Mk4s, which at times belong in the Pacer school of ride quality.

To me the ride benchmarks are the Class 158 for a lower-speed DMU, and the Class 221 for a 125mph vehicle. The Class 800 is certainly up with both of those in my view.

I've always loved a MK3 but hopefully I'll be travelling on my first IET on Monday so I'm looking forward to it

 

[E_Reeves]

As a side-question how can I tell if a service will be an IET? I'm looking for one from Didcot towards Paddington...

 

[Goldfish62]

Many people don't care about the motors. I prefer the high floor coaches because the window is at a better level.

I've been on several IETs and haven't noticed this difference in window level. Could you explain?

 

[samuelmorris]

I've never quite understood why people hold Mk3s up as some kind of benchmark for ride. They have a noticeable side to side sway, can be a bit bouncy and make an almighty bang with visible body deformation when something passes at speed (maybe less so on the GWR due to the wider loading gauge). Their one redeeming feature is that they aren't Mk4s, which at times belong in the Pacer school of ride quality.

To me the ride benchmarks are the Class 158 for a lower-speed DMU, and the Class 221 for a 125mph vehicle. The Class 800 is certainly up with both of those in my view.

I have to say I'm a big fans of 158s. I gather they have A/C problems but I fortunately haven't encountered that yet. I am a bit biased by having mostly used the SWT examples which are very comfortable, but the ATW ones weren't bad either, apart from one of the units I travelled on being a bit draughty in January. To me the 800s certainly don't deliver a superior travelling experience to a 158. As for HSTs vs Mk4s, I actually prefer Mk4s, predominantly because of the much less pronounced slam as other high speed trains pass (presumably due to the tapered sides?). 800s seemed fine for this at least, so I have to credit them there. As someone who lives in an area served by 321s, fast services passing by and not making a huge bang are still a bit of a novelty for me

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been on several IETs and haven't noticed this difference in window level. Could you explain?

The driving vehicles have a slightly lower floor than the intermediates, which means the seats (can I use that word? ) in the intermediates are slightly (a couple of inches) higher against the windows, which makes the windowsill a much more comfortable armrest, and the body slightly wider at elbow level when seated.

It's most visible by the extra step in the doorway on boarding. The ramp that was talked about a lot is much less noticeable but is also there and can be found at the corridor connection a bit like SBB EW I/II stock, for anyone who's been on that, which has a relatively low floor for its age but a standard height UIC gangway.

 

[cactustwirly]

I've never quite understood why people hold Mk3s up as some kind of benchmark for ride. They have a noticeable side to side sway, can be a bit bouncy and make an almighty bang with visible body deformation when something passes at speed (maybe less so on the GWR due to the wider loading gauge). Their one redeeming feature is that they aren't Mk4s, which at times belong in the Pacer school of ride quality.

To me the ride benchmarks are the Class 158 for a lower-speed DMU, and the Class 221 for a 125mph vehicle. The Class 800 is certainly up with both of those in my view.

Sorry but the ride quality of the 800s is pretty poor, it's definitely worse than the Mk3s!

 

[samuelmorris]

Sorry but the ride quality of the 800s is pretty poor, it's definitely worse than the Mk3s!

Take a look at this video from Paul's Trip reports - 4m54 on the timestamp

He's very good at providing balanced commentary on his travel experiences (though more air than rail) and he admits in this very video he's an HST fan but the ride quality at least on that route was terrible. I must admit that bouncy ride is something I've become accustomed to with HSTs. It's not awful, but it can certainly be inconvenient. 800s, for their many flaws, have not exhibited this behaviour for me.

 

[cactustwirly]

Take a look at this video from Paul's Trip reports - 4m54 on the timestamp

He's very good at providing balanced commentary on his travel experiences (though more air than rail) and he admits in this very video he's an HST fan but the ride quality at least on that route was terrible. I must admit that bouncy ride is something I've become accustomed to with HSTs. It's not awful, but it can certainly be inconvenient. 800s, for their many flaws, have not exhibited this behaviour for me.

I've seen it!
I'm a regular traveller on EMT HSTs and the ride is definitely less jerky than the 800s!

 

[Meerkat]

I did a trip on an IET and back on an HST.
The IET was a bit busy but very secure, like a car on low profiles and hard suspension.
The HST was smoother but with big lurches, far harder to get used to. The lighting in the HST was dreadful too, like a grotty carpark stairway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The HST was smoother but with big lurches, far harder to get used to. The lighting in the HST was dreadful too, like a grotty carpark stairway.

The GWR HST lighting is truly awful - a way of totally ruining a quite good refurb. Even LU have packed in using daylight tubes because nobody likes them, they are just like a dismal, dull, cloudy day, cold and harsh.

The Class 800 lighting is "OK" - pretty much the same level and colour temperature as a Class 350 or similar (quite a lot of things about the 800 feel to me like a 350, which is probably not an accolade when you're comparing an allegedly proper InterCity train with a slightly posh suburban EMU). But that's all it is. It's a real shame the effort wasn't put into doing something truly innovative using LEDs like many aircraft and road coach designs these days. For little or no extra money it could have been *classy*, but it wasn't.

 

[samuelmorris]

800 lighting is fine, perfectly adequate for what they do and not something I have issue with. GWR HST lighting a bit too bright for my liking, certainly at night. That's with only half the tubes running as well, I dread to think what it was like with them all lit. LNER HST lighting much better in my opinion. Generally speaking I like pretty much all the aspects of the Mallard refurbishment they carried out in the mid 2000s.

 

[43096]

Sorry but the ride quality of the 800s is pretty poor, it's definitely worse than the Mk3s!

Agreed. From my experience I would say 800 ride is probably on a par with a Mark 4. Certainly inferior to a Mark 3.

 

[superalbs]

Agreed. From my experience I would say 800 ride is probably on a par with a Mark 4. Certainly inferior to a Mark 3.

I agree, it's not so much bouncy, but it shakes so much...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, it's not so much bouncy, but it shakes so much...

Mk4s are all over the place, last time I rode one it felt like we had come off the road at one point. The 800 is more like a Desiro - quite hard but not bouncy.

 

[northernbelle]

Agreed. From my experience I would say 800 ride is probably on a par with a Mark 4. Certainly inferior to a Mark 3.

As a nearly-daily laptop using traveller between Taunton and Reading, I find the 802s to ride better. On HSTs my mouse cursor tends to fly all over the screen!

 

[coppercapped]

I've never quite understood why people hold Mk3s up as some kind of benchmark for ride. They have a noticeable side to side sway, can be a bit bouncy and make an almighty bang with visible body deformation when something passes at speed (maybe less so on the GWR due to the wider loading gauge). Their one redeeming feature is that they aren't Mk4s, which at times belong in the Pacer school of ride quality.

To me the ride benchmarks are the Class 158 for a lower-speed DMU, and the Class 221 for a 125mph vehicle. The Class 800 is certainly up with both of those in my view.

The point about the ride of the Mark 3 coaches is that, when they were introduced, they were a significant improvement over what had gone before. My first experience of them was on the Western and much of the route had been relayed with long welded rail in the lead-up to their introduction. The Badminton line was closed for many weeks so the trackbed could be completely replaced.

As a result the overall impression of the new trains was that they were a considerable step forward, the air sprung bogies had a softness that was noticeable and the disc brakes were noiseless compared to the block brakes of the trains they replaced. (The smell of hot brake pads was another issue...!) The slight jerk often felt at the rear of trains when loco hauled was eliminated.

The bodyside flexing because of the pressure wave from passing trains was always noticeable, but probably not quite so much on the Western because of the generally wider track spacing and, of course, in those days the saloons had an intermediate partition which damped the movement. In late 1970s there were fewer passing trains so the effect was not so obvious.

It was known that the ride was not so good on curving track at high cant deficiencies as the bolster could hit the lateral bump stops. BR experimented on the Midland with an active system to stiffen the lateral dampers to avoid contact. Modern Railways reported at the time that the system showed an improvement but it was not adopted.

BR realised that the BT10 bogie could be improved and further developed the Series 3 bogie, which uses the air springs for lateral as well as vertical movement, and evolved the Series 4 bogie used under the Class 158 and 159 trains. It was also intended for 125mph use but IIRC the only higher speed application was under the DVTs built for the East Coast and the Mark 4 sets. A pity - it was and remains a very good bogie.

But the real reason why people still hold the Mark 3 coach up as a benchmark is psychological. The HST and the Mark 3 coach was such an advance in speed and smoothness of ride and quietness over what had gone before that one would expect, after 40 years, another similar improvement.

It's not happened. At best - at very best - the Class 80X is 'ho hum'. The ride is firmer and more 'nervous' ( a motoring friend described it as 'vintage'), there are the occasional loud crashes from underneath over pointwork, the cabin fittings look cheap, the background noise level is quite high even when not moving and the external finish looks as if it was intended for an Army off-road vehicle - matt.

It's really looks like Government issue - a sort of 'standard NHS furniture issue' train.

 

[Meerkat]

I found the IET pretty good apart from the ridiculous seats. I liked the lighting, the ride was secure, it felt fast, and the noise levels were excellent for underfloor engines.
The only issues were the flickering PIS, the cramped vestibules, and having a numb backside and sore head after 30 minutes.
Throw decent seats in and it is a great train.