GWR Class 800

[Typhoon_93]

I’m 99% sure that 802102 was on one of the outside roads at North Pole when I went past earlier but it was dark so not certain. If it was that’s the first delivered 9 car train from Italy. Can anyone confirm?

802102 did arrive today.

 

[FGW_DID]

I’m 99% sure that 802102 was on one of the outside roads at North Pole when I went past earlier but it was dark so not certain. If it was that’s the first delivered 9 car train from Italy. Can anyone confirm?

Where was 802101 built?

 

[Typhoon_93]

Where was 802101 built?

101 Kasado
102-114 Pistoia

 

[aar0]

Amusingly, the auto announcer 800/3 that I'm onboard currently has a stutter - "to L-L-L-London Paddington"!

 

[Envoy]

I think that apart from the awful seats, that they are pretty good trains. I note that in the coaches with underfloor diesel engines that these are well isolated. I have no problem with the blinds - which can be pulled down just far enough (usually) to block out the direct sun but not so far as to block the view. I also think that it would have been desirable to have the windowless seats at the ends of the coaches as a luggage area. I don’t like sitting in the lower floored end coaches as you are too low compared to the window and do wonder why the floor could not have been kept the same height throughout? I reserve judgement on the length of the trains until the full fleet is up and running.

 

[Goldfish62]

That’s an interesting observation about the first class seats. I wonder - as the first class layout is 2+1 - presumably they couldn’t be used in a 2+2 layout due to the width? Obviously German trains are built to a wider loading gauge than UK stock. (Not that this is any excuse.)

I think it would be a squeeze, although I'm sure if there's been a large enough order a version could be made for the UK loading gauge. Or better still, avoid Fainsa!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s an interesting observation about the first class seats. I wonder - as the first class layout is 2+1 - presumably they couldn’t be used in a 2+2 layout due to the width? Obviously German trains are built to a wider loading gauge than UK stock. (Not that this is any excuse.)

They are a wider version I believe.

 

[irish_rail]

Speaking to an off-duty member of Penzance GWR staff in my local tonight they said all the staff vehemently disliked them as they regularly have to travel on them to their next duty & quoted all the same reasons everyone else has posted here - seats / ambience / catering etc.etc. and are well aware its all down to DaFT.

The only winner is the Driver with a £40,000 seat - the only one to travel in comfort

For the record it aint all great for the driver. Those of us used to HST luxury with room to spread out and drive comfortably, are not all impressed with IET.
For example the left hand armrest is half length and therefore totally useless. Unless you are tiny therefore the "driving" arm has absolutely no support whatsoever, though on the plus side I expect my left arm soon to resemble popeyes.
The desk which also serves no purpose also prevents the driver from the ability to move his legs for example to cross them. Not very nice when in the seat for anything upto 4 hours, becomes very uncomfortable.
I suspect the drivers who sing the praises of the IET cabs are those more used to sprinter cab environment.

 

[jimm]

Yes, it's false equivalence. The 800s are supposed to be the pride of the long distance fleet. Instead in standard class we get the Fainsa Sophia, which is a local/regional seat (as used in a number of German S Bahn and regional trains) and in 1st Class we get the Fainsa MD, which is used in standard class on the ICE.

What false equivalence? I was not the person who made the claim that the interior of the Class 800s is like a suburban train. It patently obviously isn't, no matter how many times the usual suspects claim it is.

Is there a type of long-distance train operating anywhere in this country that has not been the target of criticism on this forum over all or any of: seats; lighting levels; window sizes and locations; and just about anything else anyone can think of when it comes to interior layouts and fittings?

Or is there some acme of perfection running around out there that I have somehow missed?

The German ICE standard class coach is laden with airline seating - as is ICE first class these days - and has fewer seats at tables than a Class 800 trailer. Is the ICE also a suburban train? Or is it excused because the German loading gauge allows a slightly wider and taller bodyshell, giving the designers some more space to work with? No one ever seems to claim TGV interiors are airy and luxurious and just what we need here. Why might that be?

 

[cactustwirly]

What false equivalence? I was not the person who made the claim that the interior of the Class 800s is like a suburban train. It patently obviously isn't, no matter how many times the usual suspects claim it is.

Is there a type of long-distance train operating anywhere in this country that has not been the target of criticism on this forum over all or any of: seats; lighting levels; window sizes and locations; and just about anything else anyone can think of when it comes to interior layouts and fittings?

Or is there some acme of perfection running around out there that I have somehow missed?

The German ICE standard class coach is laden with airline seating - as is ICE first class these days - and has fewer seats at tables than a Class 800 trailer. Is the ICE also a suburban train? Or is it excused because the German loading gauge allows a slightly wider and taller bodyshell, giving the designers some more space to work with? No one ever seems to claim TGV interiors are airy and luxurious and just what we need here. Why might that be?

It's just the seats and lighting.
As far as interiors are concerned, dare I say that a 22x has a better interior....

 

[jimm]

As for an apology - with your attitude, you can go................... whistle. Besides, my post was pretty obviously tongue-in-cheek.

And pretty obviously completely unnecessary and a deliberate attack on me - presumably for daring to disagree with some of your unshakeable 'opinions'.

Just in case you and others haven't realised it, everyone is well aware you don't like the seats by now and doesn't need to be told so over and over again on a daily basis.

 

[samuelmorris]

It's just the seats and lighting.
As far as interiors are concerned, dare I say that a 22x has a better interior....

At the risk of muddying the waters, I think the lighting is absolutely fine. The seats are something I (and I think on balance looking at everyone's opinions here, the majority) disagree with but otherwise I don't have too many complaints. The units do have a bit of a cheap and tacky feel but that's not exactly the end of the world.

As jimm rightly says, the units do not really have a suburban-like interior design, but the fact remains I spent 20 minutes on a 360/1 yesterday which was a quieter, and marginally more comfortable experience than having a table seat to myself in an 800. That's not just a suburban unit but a 3+2 suburban unit. That does make you wonder. Perhaps a detailed poll with a few different responses for each contentious subject would help :P

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's just the seats and lighting.
As far as interiors are concerned, dare I say that a 22x has a better interior....

Overall I’d say no, but the actual seats are better as is the colour scheme and lighting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the risk of muddying the waters, I think the lighting is absolutely fine. The seats are something I (and I think on balance looking at everyone's opinions here, the majority) disagree with but otherwise I don't have too many complaints. The units do have a bit of a cheap and tacky feel but that's not exactly the end of the world.

As jimm rightly says, the units do not really have a suburban-like interior design, but the fact remains I spent 20 minutes on a 360/1 yesterday which was a quieter, and marginally more comfortable experience than having a table seat to myself in an 800. That's not just a suburban unit but a 3+2 suburban unit. That does make you wonder. Perhaps a detailed poll with a few different responses for each contentious subject would help :P

Class 350/2 seats may be 3+2 but my backside can’t feel the support framework under the seat...

 

[43096]

And pretty obviously completely unnecessary and a deliberate attack on me - presumably for daring to disagree with some of your unshakeable 'opinions'.

Just in case you and others haven't realised it, everyone is well aware you don't like the seats by now and doesn't need to be told so over and over again on a daily basis.

Over and over again?

Have a look in the mirror.

 

[jimm]

Over and over again?

Have a look in the mirror.

Let's see, we have had years of opinions, assertions and so on about these trains being posted on this forum.

Many of them had no basis whatever in reality, fact or anything else, which is why I, and others, have had to point this out over and over again. If we had been spared the nonsense, then you would have been spared others pointing out that it was nonsense.

Unless you are saying that it's okay to post nonsense and no one should dare to challenge or correct it. Or suggest that the comfortableness or otherwise of train seats is entirely a matter of personal preference.

 

[jayah]

Yes, it's false equivalence. The 800s are supposed to be the pride of the long distance fleet. Instead in standard class we get the Fainsa Sophia, which is a local/regional seat (as used in a number of German S Bahn and regional trains) and in 1st Class we get the Fainsa MD, which is used in standard class on the ICE.

The biggest problem with the seats is that you can plainly feel the hard (metal?) base straight through the seat.

Is that also the case on an ICE?

 

[404250]

17:31 bristol TM to London is a 5. I think that's 3 in the last 10 times I've used these trains. Explanation is always that the train is overcrowded because it's 5 instead of 10. That's obvious - surely they should be giving a reason WHY it's 5!

 

[reddragon]

Let's see, we have had years of opinions, assertions and so on about these trains being posted on this forum.

Many of them had no basis whatever in reality, fact or anything else, which is why I, and others, have had to point this out over and over again. If we had been spared the nonsense, then you would have been spared others pointing out that it was nonsense.

Unless you are saying that it's okay to post nonsense and no one should dare to challenge or correct it. Or suggest that the comfortableness or otherwise of train seats is entirely a matter of personal preference.

So at Reading Station this morning a HST and 9- car 800 pull into the station side by side and the commuters are packed on both platforms, boarding starts and soon the HST is full and commuters switch to the 800 which takes many more people.

I get the HST up, softer seats, very cramped with high seat backs, no annoying / informative announcements, very quiet but rocky inside.
I came back on an 800, harder seats, much more open & greater legroom, smoother ride but endless rumbling noise on electric and annoying announcements, one telling me to change at Reading for Oxford on a train to . . Oxford! I even noticed that dreaded ramp for the first time, needed my climbing gear to get up it or did I, as the trolley had no problem or custom come to that.

Which do I prefer? Both or the best bits of both on one train maybe, its a personal preference. Softer seats would help.

HST now look really old & dated on a line full of 345s / 387s / 800s.

Change is happening, live with it!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest problem with the seats is that you can plainly feel the hard (metal?) base straight through the seat.

Not just that, but the crossmember. I don't mind sitting on a hard seat, I do mind feeling like I'm sitting on a seat frame with no cushion on it.

It'd be so easy to fix, too - just install new bases with a solid metal bottom.

 

[Railperf]

So at Reading Station this morning a HST and 9- car 800 pull into the station side by side and the commuters are packed on both platforms, boarding starts and soon the HST is full and commuters switch to the 800 which takes many more people.

I get the HST up, softer seats, very cramped with high seat backs, no annoying / informative announcements, very quiet but rocky inside.
I came back on an 800, harder seats, much more open & greater legroom, smoother ride but endless rumbling noise on electric and annoying announcements, one telling me to change at Reading for Oxford on a train to . . Oxford! I even noticed that dreaded ramp for the first time, needed my climbing gear to get up it or did I, as the trolley had no problem or custom come to that.

Which do I prefer? Both or the best bits of both on one train maybe, its a personal preference. Softer seats would help.

HST now look really old & dated on a line full of 345s / 387s / 800s.

Change is happening, live with it!!

Yay - a pretty balanced report for a change. I disagree though that HST's look dated. It is probably one of the most timeless designs of any train in the world of any era. And despite its deficiencies - still the most successful diesel train - probably the best ever train (steam diesel or electric) ever produced in terms of years in operation, mileage run, how many bums on seats it has carried, average speeds, revenue generated, revenue/cost, revenue/mile, you name it. I cannot think of a train anywhere else in the world - TGV apart that comes close. And yet the HST has been improved over so many years - from power units- to interiors.
But yes, time has come for a successor - and the 800 is what we have. Hitachi have a lot to prove.

 

[samuelmorris]

You could realistically put power cars with new mechanicals on the ends and perform the PRM mods to the Mk3s with sliding doors and have it be essentially a modern train again. Conceptually though I have no issue with wholesale replacement of something that's more than met its design life. It's just, the replacement could be better!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could realistically put power cars with new mechanicals on the ends and perform the PRM mods to the Mk3s with sliding doors and have it be essentially a modern train again.

You've presumably seen how well that seems to be going at ScotRail?

The Class 800 is a decent train, in any case. It's just got a cheap and nasty interior. Refit it with an interior more to the standard of the HSTs and there'll be nowt wrong with it. All that will require is an afternoon per unit, a job lot of better shaped new seat bases and backs with coloured moquette on them (dark green would do) and a long roll of dark green sticky backed plastic to go over that manky lime green. It would really be very cheap to sort out the problems. There is not even any need to replace the seat frame, there's nothing wrong with that, indeed the tables have some quite nice features like cupholders and a groove to stand your tablet up in.

Even the lighting isn't *that* bad, it's about the same as the Class 350/2. Not classy or nice, but perfectly acceptable.

 

[reddragon]

Yay - a pretty balanced report for a change. I disagree though that HST's look dated. It is probably one of the most timeless designs of any train in the world of any era. And despite its deficiencies - still the most successful diesel train - probably the best ever train (steam diesel or electric) ever produced in terms of years in operation, mileage run, how many bums on seats it has carried, average speeds, revenue generated, revenue/cost, revenue/mile, you name it. I cannot think of a train anywhere else in the world - TGV apart that comes close. And yet the HST has been improved over so many years - from power units- to interiors.
But yes, time has come for a successor - and the 800 is what we have. Hitachi have a lot to prove.

Dated, sorry . . but not as in design etc but in condition. Loads of corrosion visible, welding on roof, ends in a state, slam doors, toilet waste to track, lack of modern features such as information displays, body sides badly rippling, they just look shoddy, knackered and worn out! Refurbs can only achieve some much, the old girls need a slower pace of life for us to enjoy them.

I would agree that their design is a timeless masterpiece and that without doubt are probably the best train ever made as in capability, survivability and long very hard worked life. No other top link train comes close from steam, to diesel or electric. Even the TGVs have had 2 generations come and go since the venerable HST has held top spot. I can remember HSTs in the 1980's when at their peak achieving journey times much better than today and quicker than an 800 on electric (I know many other reasons) and a HST at 140 mph to Reading in under 20 mins was thrilling to experience, now no longer allowed. Yes the daily mileage of an east coast HST out performs everything and with 9 cars in tow etc etc.

The 800s are clinical, move the masses, have mod-cons, are cleaner and hopeful will be improved and gain character over time. Yes they are used less miles per day, getting an easier life, have firm seats and are no great improvement on the HST but who has bettered Concorde at what it did? We all fly in Airbus 32x series or 737/777/787s because they are economical to run / maintain.

Stop debating the HST v 800, change has happened like it or not.

PS can we go back to steam, I'd like a Castle & mark 1's again lol

 

[Geoff DC]

Dated, sorry . . but not as in design etc but in condition. Loads of corrosion visible, welding on roof, ends in a state, slam doors, toilet waste to track, lack of modern features such as information displays, body sides badly rippling, they just look shoddy, knackered and worn out! Refurbs can only achieve some much, the old girls need a slower pace of life for us to enjoy them.

And so they are, but in spite of all this I challenge you to find any GWR users or staff who are long distance users rather than London Commuters who would rather travel on an IET vice HST even though it is 40 yrs old

 

[CMRail]

I disagree though that HST's look dated.

Yes they look very modern with great lighting, doors, information,A well fitted Central Locking System and much more.

How do they not look dated? How great or not great they are, at age 40 I think you have said something of which was not thought through.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And so they are, but in spite of all this I challenge you to find any GWR users or staff who are long distance users rather than London Commuters who would rather travel on an IET vice HST even though it is 40 yrs old

But that is not because the train is rubbish (it's too nondescript to be rubbish; it's just a tube with seats in and reasonably sized windows). It is because the seats are rubbish. This is just about the cheapest thing to fix.

If they had fitted Grammer IC3000s (including the wider First Class version) I doubt there would have been any whines other than from stalwart HST enthusiasts.

It is also suffering operational problems, such as the ridiculous Union insistence that you can't have the driver on his own in a unit (of a pair) when running on a service presently requiring a guard despite the self same units being allowed to be run as DOO on existing DOO routes, and despite those same DOO routes being allowed to have a pair of Class 165s or 166s with no member of staff at all in one of said units. Again, that's not a problem with the units, it's a problem with the RMT and/or ASLEF, whichever one of the two came up with it.

 

[CMRail]

And so they are, but in spite of all this I challenge you to find any GWR users or staff who are long distance users rather than London Commuters who would rather travel on an IET vice HST even though it is 40 yrs old

Ah, and god bless all the money in my bank account because I will struggle to find many. You’d find out of the industry where people moniter of the HSTs are a hundredth of a mile quicker people atcually seem to equally like if not pefer the IET. As a younger person going into my twenties. I like the feel of the IETs and they feel less claustrophobic and I’d pefer standing on one of them as well. The fact that you have been able to survey everyone on the network astonishes me and quite frankly surprises me compared to the feedback I’m given. At the Gloucester depot most staff pefer the IET in terms of more job assistance.

 

[Geoff DC]

and I’d pefer standing on one of them as well.

For 5 1/2 hrs from Penzance to London ?

 

[Railperf]

Yes they look very modern with great lighting, doors, information,A well fitted Central Locking System and much more.

How do they not look dated? How great or not great they are, at age 40 I think you have said something of which was not thought through.

Subjectively, the aesthetic design of the train externally looks as modern as it ever has done regardless of whether it has power or slam doors.

As for the interiors....which have been refurbished many times according to the taste and budget of the various operators
Are you honestly saying that this ....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briti...ia/File:Standard_Class_interior_of_800009.jpg

looks any more modern than this ....????

https://thebeautyoftransport.com/20...ns-east-coast-branding-2015/#jp-carousel-7201