GWR Class 800

[43096]

Wait, I thought the deal was that Hitachi (well Agility Trains) get paid on a diagram basis? No train for the diagram no payment. Or did I get the wrong end of a stick somewhere down the line?

Have a look at Clarence Yard's post a way back: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-800.100841/page-310#post-3711094

 

[ainsworth74]

Have a look at Clarence Yard's post a way back: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-800.100841/page-310#post-3711094

Oh wow. Thanks for the link.

I swear the DfT wouldn't know how to negotiate an equitable contract if one tripped and fell in front of their faces.

 

[JN114]

Oh wow. Thanks for the link.

I swear the DfT wouldn't know how to negotiate an equitable contract if one tripped and fell in front of their faces.

DfT, need I say anymore.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Having seen various posts suggesting 800 001 and 800 002 are entering service this week, it may be of interest that they were coupled together and stabled on the high level sidings at the back of North Pole today in an extremely shiny ex-works condition, clearly visible and identifiable from the main line.

 

[gsnedders]

Is it really that difficult to read signals at 140mph? I can't see how 15mph over the existing maximum can make such a huge difference. Sure in some places sighting won't allow it, but a blanket ban seems excessive.
The section of the ECML north of York for example, it must be possible to sight signals from several miles away.

I know of nowhere in the world that allows line-side signalling at over 125mph, and very few allow close to 125mph.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I know of nowhere in the world that allows line-side signalling at over 125mph, and very few allow close to 125mph.

SNCF classic line between Tours and Bordeaux? Prior to the LGV extension opening last year, TGVs used this route at 135mph - I'm pretty sure it has conventional signalling. Not sure if they'd still do that if the LGV was closed for any reason.

 

[jimm]

No doubt "jimm" will be along shortly to tell us all how the deal is wonderful and in the best interests of those pay (i.e. passengers and taxpayers).

I do love the way that people on this forum who are apparently determined to attack anything and everything to do with these trains like to make out that anyone who ventures any kind of criticism of their views must automatically love anything and everything about the IEP/80xs - and the way they were acquired.

Anyone able to do basic maths could see that private finance initiative deals - whatever they were being used for - were lousy for the taxpayer from the moment that the Major government came up with them 26 years ago.

That is also my considered opinion on the subject of PFIs and has been for a long time.

I have said so here several times in the past when someone else has posted claims that I must be a cheerleader for the financial arrangements for the IEP project.

Hopefully this will be the last time I have to say that PFIs are stupid, the IEP one included.

 

[CMRail]

This thread is a “pull a fault from the hat” game. Anyone who remotely points out facts is critical towards that individual and people just like jimm who are not just saying that the IETs are amazing and fabulous he’s saying facts. i

 

[Grumbler]

Anyone able to do basic maths could see that private finance initiative deals - whatever they were being used for - were lousy for the taxpayer from the moment that the Major government came up with them 26 years ago.

That is also my considered opinion on the subject of PFIs and has been for a long time.

I have said so here several times in the past when someone else has posted claims that I must be a cheerleader for the financial arrangements for the IEP project.

Hopefully this will be the last time I have to say that PFIs are stupid, the IEP one included.

PFI = Public Fleecing Initiative.

 

[Railperf]

SNCF classic line between Tours and Bordeaux? Prior to the LGV extension opening last year, TGVs used this route at 135mph - I'm pretty sure it has conventional signalling. Not sure if they'd still do that if the LGV was closed for any reason.

Yes, i think you are right. However, the French use KVB speed protection which offers a similar form of speed supervision to ATP. And it probably provides a similar level of speed protection to ETCS, except that the driver does not have the same visual display regarding speed limits and the recommended speed in relation to the braking curve. Class 800's IIRC are 'ETCS ready' - which is presumably what they will need to run at 140mph. Does anyone know 800's are profited with the ETCS equipment - or is it 'ready' in the sense that it can be retrofitted very easily?

I don't think there is a business case to run 800's at 140mph on the GWML - even if the route is converted to ETCS or ERTMS. You need to run at 140mph continuously for 20 miles to gain a single minute over a train running at 125mph. Looking at the majority of station to station sections, London to Reading 36 miles, Reading to Didcot 17 miles, Didcot to Swindon 24 miles, Swindon to Chippenham 16.6 miles, there are very few opportunities for sustained 140mph running unless you start omitting stops. And those sections all require a fair distance to accelerate to and braking from 125mph.
Beyond Chippenham, there is barely any 125mph running -6 miles - which includes accelerating to 125mph and braking to 100mph to Middle Hill Tunnel. From Swindon to Bristol Parkway Westbound, there is a short 5.5 miles section of 125mph track before Wootton Bassett junction - limited to 70mph. Then follows a pair of 10 mile 125mph sections - followed by a final 3 mile section into Bristol Parkway. The intermediate restrictions are around 100/110mph.

Probably the 800's 140mph capabilities are more likely going to be utilised on the ECML where the current service pattern sees much longer distances between station stops, and probably longer sections of 125mph running that can be easily upgraded to allow 140mph.

You can see why the French - despite having much longer distances between major city centres - realised that you needed a dedicated high speed line for sustained running over 125mph. The 220km/h add-ons to the existing network are only where it was possible at low cost to convert already high-speed 200km/h sections of conventional track for TGV's to serve stations beyond the high speed line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think ADIF/Renfe have a few sections of classic track in Spain cleared for 220km/h, on routes operated by high speed trains.
These use the Spanish ASFA signalling system, and are broad gauge/3kV DC lines.
One section seems to be Xativa-La Encina on the Valencia-Alacant route (Mediterranean corridor), linking two LAV high speed routes.

 

[paul1609]

I don't think there is a business case to run 800's at 140mph on the GWML - even if the route is converted to ETCS or ERTMS. You need to run at 140mph continuously for 20 miles to gain a single minute over a train running at 125mph. Looking at the majority of station to station sections, London to Reading 36 miles, Reading to Didcot 17 miles, Didcot to Swindon 24 miles, Swindon to Chippenham 16.6 miles, there are very few opportunities for sustained 140mph running unless you start omitting stops. And those sections all require a fair distance to accelerate to and braking from 125mph.
Beyond Chippenham, there is barely any 125mph running -6 miles - which includes accelerating to 125mph and braking to 100mph to Middle Hill Tunnel. From Swindon to Bristol Parkway Westbound, there is a short 5.5 miles section of 125mph track before Wootton Bassett junction - limited to 70mph. Then follows a pair of 10 mile 125mph sections - followed by a final 3 mile section into Bristol Parkway. The intermediate restrictions are around 100/110mph.

Probably the 800's 140mph capabilities are more likely going to be utilised on the ECML where the current service pattern sees much longer distances between station stops, and probably longer sections of 125mph running that can be easily upgraded to allow 140mph.

I agree that there is no case for the Great Western, but I'm doubtful for the East Coast as well the problem is the reduction in the number of paths and the slower running EMUs as well as the points already made.

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder this thread is for discussion regarding GWR Class 800.

For discussion regarding any other trains (including other operators' Class 800s) please an existing thread, or create a new one if there isn't one already.

For timetable discussion, please create a thread (if there isn't already a suitable thread) in the timetabling area of the forum.

For speculation about what may or may not happen, please create a thread in Speculative Ideas (if there isn't already a suitable thread)

I have moved some posts regarding speculation about the potential long term future displacement of ICEC franchise 800s into this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...es-in-the-longer-term-after-hs2-opens.173230/

However it is time consuming to split posts and it is better if posts are made in the right place from the beginning. Thanks!

 

[43096]

I do love the way that people on this forum who are apparently determined to attack anything and everything to do with these trains like to make out that anyone who ventures any kind of criticism of their views must automatically love anything and everything about the IEP/80xs - and the way they were acquired.

Anyone able to do basic maths could see that private finance initiative deals - whatever they were being used for - were lousy for the taxpayer from the moment that the Major government came up with them 26 years ago.

That is also my considered opinion on the subject of PFIs and has been for a long time.

I have said so here several times in the past when someone else has posted claims that I must be a cheerleader for the financial arrangements for the IEP project.

Hopefully this will be the last time I have to say that PFIs are stupid, the IEP one included.

I'll make my position clear, then.
- HSTs need replacing
- the basic design of the IET is fine
- the way it has been procured and financed is an absolute scandal
- the interior spec is very poor, specifically the seats

They could have been a really nice train, but are hugely let down by the "cheap and nasty"* interior fit specified by DfT which makes them a bog standard suburban unit. They certainly are not a high-quality long-distance train, which they could have been with just a little more effort.

* although "expensive and nasty" might be more appropriate!

 

[samuelmorris]

The cheap and nasty part is, cynically but probably has a fair amount of truth in it, I expect to counteract the expensive way the trains were financed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll make my position clear, then.
- HSTs need replacing
- the basic design of the IET is fine
- the way it has been procured and financed is an absolute scandal
- the interior spec is very poor, specifically the seats

They could have been a really nice train, but are hugely let down by the "cheap and nasty"* interior fit specified by DfT which makes them a bog standard suburban unit. They certainly are not a high-quality long-distance train, which they could have been with just a little more effort.

I would wholly agree with this. The train itself is fine and perfectly suited to what it is doing on GWR and the East Coast, though it would have been nice had it had some more innovative features like level boarding and gap bridgers, and if it had been procured in a manner which was better value for the taxpayer, TOC and passenger alike. It has some very good features such as very large overhead luggage racks (bigger than the previous benchmark, the Desiro) which are at a convenient height, a good ride (much better than any Mk3 or Mk4), effective aircon, excellent acceleration, "traffic light" reservations and very well insulated diesel engines so you can barely notice them. Edit: oh, and excellent legroom.

If you'd like to see what it would have been like without a poorly-specified interior, try a "Javelin" unit - they are basically just a suburban version of the same sort of thing. If you can block out the door positions from your mind, anyway Or indeed a Class 444, which is just a (rougher riding) similarly long tube with seats in it and reasonably sized windows.

 

[samuelmorris]

This is exactly it - having used 395s regularly my recurring thought about the 800 was "this is like a 395 but not as good". Never mind the obvious compromises in noise level and performance necessary for a Bimode unit, the standard class interior is straight up inferior to that of a 395 which is a commuter train from almost a decade earlier, based on the exact same platform from the same company. Better legroom, seat reservation and window blinds are all they have going for them. Given the seat reservation is effectively not in use based on what people have to say about its failure rate (it certainly wasn't operational when I travelled on one) and the windowblinds are pretty cheap and nasty, that doesn't leave much.

 

[jimm]

I'll make my position clear, then.
- HSTs need replacing
- the basic design of the IET is fine
- the way it has been procured and financed is an absolute scandal
- the interior spec is very poor, specifically the seats

They could have been a really nice train, but are hugely let down by the "cheap and nasty"* interior fit specified by DfT which makes them a bog standard suburban unit. They certainly are not a high-quality long-distance train, which they could have been with just a little more effort.

* although "expensive and nasty" might be more appropriate!

So it's too much to expect an apology for what you assumed my views on the PFI arrangement were in your previous post, is it?

Instead we get the same old stuff about seats - an entirely subjective matter, as shown by threads about all kinds of seats on all kinds of trains littered across this forum for years - and the claim that the interior is like a bog standard suburban unit. GW passengers in the Thames Valley (and all the way out to places like Worcester, Malvern and Hereford, lest we forget what 16xs have been used for down the years) would have been delighted to have suburban trains with interiors like the IET for the past 25 years, instead of the Turbos.

 

[jayah]

So it's too much to expect an apology for what you assumed my views on the PFI arrangement were in your previous post, is it?

Instead we get the same old stuff about seats - an entirely subjective matter, as shown by threads about all kinds of seats on all kinds of trains littered across this forum for years - and the claim that the interior is like a bog standard suburban unit. GW passengers in the Thames Valley (and all the way out to places like Worcester, Malvern and Hereford, lest we forget what 16xs have been used for down the years) would have been delighted to have suburban trains with interiors like the IET for the past 25 years, instead of the Turbos.

A worn out Turbo with lino flooring, signage peeling off and dilapidated upholstery is a very low benchmark indeed.

 

[Wychwood93]

A worn out Turbo with lino flooring, signage peeling off and dilapidated upholstery is a very low benchmark indeed.

jimm had really nailed it there in the previous post. To me the Turbos were not quite up to it, even when new (ish) - I commuted to Reading whilst working for Thames Trains in 1993/4 - I had hoped that a new train would have a touch more 'grunt' and be more comfortable than the Hampshire demu's and 'power twins' on the Basing to Reading part of the day. How wrong can you be? To me the 800s are a step up, a big step, compared to the Turbos - the Cotswolds must surely be happy? I love the HSTs, for a variety of reasons, but the 800s are what we will have for a while - I will miss the former, but embrace the latter. There may well be flaws...… what hasn't?

 

[broadgage]

I'll make my position clear, then.
- HSTs need replacing
- the basic design of the IET is fine
- the way it has been procured and financed is an absolute scandal
- the interior spec is very poor, specifically the seats

They could have been a really nice train, but are hugely let down by the "cheap and nasty"* interior fit specified by DfT which makes them a bog standard suburban unit. They certainly are not a high-quality long-distance train, which they could have been with just a little more effort.

* although "expensive and nasty" might be more appropriate!

I very largely agree.
The HSTs do indeed need replacing, they could have been life extended AGAIN but there are limits to this.
The basic ENGINEERING design of the IET is IMHO acceptable rather than "fine" I would have preferred loco hauled coaches to underfloor engines.
The procurement and financing is indeed a scandal.
I agree that the interior specification is indeed very poor, not just the seats but the absence of a buffet.

They do subjectively feel like a cheap suburban or at best a regional unit and not a new purpose designed high quality long distance train.

I feel that there are too many short units and not enough full length ones.

A better approach IMHO would have to place an initial order with Hitachi for the outright purchase of perhaps 20 fixed formation 10 car trains, with a buffet.
These would have given a useful capacity increase over 8 car HSTs on the busiest diagrams, from day one and with no downgrade of passenger facilities.
INITIALY the better HSTs could have been kept for another few years. Once satisfied as to the quality and suitability of the new Hitachi trains, a follow on order could have been placed for a mixture of some more 10 car trains to replace the rest of the HSTs, and some 5 car variants for secondary routes. A 10 car train should be cheaper to build than a 5+5 car, can incorporate a proper buffet, and can carry more passengers than 5+5.

Had most of new trains been 10 car, including a buffet car, and with better seats, and a generally "inter-city" ambience, then even an old cynic like me would probably forget, or at least forgive the under floor engines.

 

[Saj8]

Class 800's IIRC are 'ETCS ready' - which is presumably what they will need to run at 140mph. Does anyone know 800's are profited with the ETCS equipment - or is it 'ready' in the sense that it can be retrofitted very easily?

Yep, the kit is all there as far as I can see. It will just need switching on. There's the (currently blank) DMI touch screen on the drivers desk next to the ATP speedo, there's a fairly large equipment cupboard in the cab which contains a box with ETCS emblazened on it, and various ETCS related circuit breakers on the cab bulkhead.

 

[Goldfish62]

A worn out Turbo with lino flooring, signage peeling off and dilapidated upholstery is a very low benchmark indeed.

Yes, it's false equivalence. The 800s are supposed to be the pride of the long distance fleet. Instead in standard class we get the Fainsa Sophia, which is a local/regional seat (as used in a number of German S Bahn and regional trains) and in 1st Class we get the Fainsa MD, which is used in standard class on the ICE.

 

[Geoff DC]

Speaking to an off-duty member of Penzance GWR staff in my local tonight they said all the staff vehemently disliked them as they regularly have to travel on them to their next duty & quoted all the same reasons everyone else has posted here - seats / ambience / catering etc.etc. and are well aware its all down to DaFT.

The only winner is the Driver with a £40,000 seat - the only one to travel in comfort

 

[43096]

So it's too much to expect an apology for what you assumed my views on the PFI arrangement were in your previous post, is it?

Instead we get the same old stuff about seats - an entirely subjective matter, as shown by threads about all kinds of seats on all kinds of trains littered across this forum for years - and the claim that the interior is like a bog standard suburban unit. GW passengers in the Thames Valley (and all the way out to places like Worcester, Malvern and Hereford, lest we forget what 16xs have been used for down the years) would have been delighted to have suburban trains with interiors like the IET for the past 25 years, instead of the Turbos.

So no other opinions but yours are valid, are they? Because that is how you come across.

As for an apology - with your attitude, you can go................... whistle. Besides, my post was pretty obviously tongue-in-cheek.

 

[CMRail]

So no other opinions but yours are valid, are they? Because that is how you come across.

As for an apology - with your attitude, you can go................... whistle. Besides, my post was pretty obviously tongue-in-cheek.

Pull your socks up mate, hall he said was about the improvement compared to the torso only seats on the 165/6. Not once did he say no one is allowed an opinion..

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Yes, it's false equivalence. The 800s are supposed to be the pride of the long distance fleet. Instead in standard class we get the Fainsa Sophia, which is a local/regional seat (as used in a number of German S Bahn and regional trains) and in 1st Class we get the Fainsa MD, which is used in standard class on the ICE.

That’s an interesting observation about the first class seats. I wonder - as the first class layout is 2+1 - presumably they couldn’t be used in a 2+2 layout due to the width? Obviously German trains are built to a wider loading gauge than UK stock. (Not that this is any excuse.)

 

[Saj8]

The only winner is the Driver with a £40,000 seat - the only one to travel in comfort

Let me dispel this myth - the drivers seats are not £40k, despite what the guy in Paddington Station 24/7 said. They are standard air suspension seats that are found in most modern lorries these days. £2k tops is the figure quoted to me when I did my course. But they are very comfortable!

 

[Geoff DC]

Looks like prices have dropped considerably in the last 20 years and you can now get a good seat for that price
https://www.jennings-seats.co.uk/shop/3/index.htm

But still no excuse for what the passenger have to endure now & god forbid what they will be like in a year or so's time

 

[Mintona]

I’m 99% sure that 802102 was on one of the outside roads at North Pole when I went past earlier but it was dark so not certain. If it was that’s the first delivered 9 car train from Italy. Can anyone confirm?