GWR Class 800

[timatheronwood]

Very smooth Journey on an IET from Paddington on Tuesday evening at about 21:15 - departure delayed due to some other incident on the main line. When we left the train at Reading the pans were still raised and from the noise levels I assumed we travelled under the wires from Paddington.

Seats much better than in the HST from York that same evening (18:02 dep.) which were really cramped.

Only flaw was a strange loud tone while the set was sat in Paddington,

Tim

 

[Filton Bank]

Different issue. The pantographs failed to raise on the first day, the warning to the driver was displayed as an ADD - but a drop device can’t activate if the Pan isn’t raised and the train isn’t running on electric. It also got going after 20 minutes when the hitachi travelling engineer realised that in fault finding the first issue; they’d isolated the wrong thing and that was what was preventing forward movement.

It was the same in the sense that the TMS detected an ADD activation due to loss/lack of air in the ADD circuit in both incidents. And it wasn't a Hitachi engineer who worked out how to get the train going again on Oct 16th, though you're right about the wrong thing being isolated.

 

[Filton Bank]

Are there? What issues? There’s been one or two door issues; but even accounting for fleet size the 800s aren’t causing nearly as many delay minutes as HSTs are at the moment. Of course; any delay is unacceptable; but you make out that they’re the most unreliable trains on the network..

Ther are still plenty of unresolved issues: doors problems, TMS problems, coupling problems etc.. Not all cause delay, so maybe you're unaware of them.

 

[BestWestern]

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[TwistedMentat]

Isn't it Jan 1?

All the stuff I've been seeing says the new timetable with all electric running starts Jan 2. So depends on where you define a switchover taking place.

 

[jimm]

Ther are still plenty of unresolved issues: doors problems, TMS problems, coupling problems etc.. Not all cause delay, so maybe you're unaware of them.

So there are some niggling issues with new trains that have been in passenger service for all of nine weeks - surprise, surprise... not. And First/GWR's management team want them fixed pronto. No surprise there either, at a time when they have got a lot of other things on their plate.

As JN114 has been trying to point out, these faults are not, with the odd exception, taking the trains out of service or causing problems that might remotely justify the use of words like chaos and shambolic, as seen in posts above. Though both those words might well be applied to the state of the Cardiff-Portsmouth service yesterday, something which had naff all to do with an IET.

The only GWR HSS cancellation I have seen this afternoon on journeycheck is the 14.30 Paddington to Weston-super-Mare, which I believe is still booked for an HST. Is someone on here going to get a fit of hysterics about that being a non-runner? Thought not...

there have also been numerous diagrams running with a single five car set, rather than the intended ten car pair. This of course was suggested as an issue some time ago, whereupon those concerns, and the accompanying shouts of "Voyager!", were met with assertions that the contract requirements and reliability of the trains would mean that such a thing will never happen. This week it has been happening daily, affecting a significant number of services.

Numerous? Really? Maybe they just aren't making it to journeycheck, which I have been keeping a close eye on in recent days to try to make sure that I avoid any service where it's a two-car 165 instead of a 180. The odd one or two, yes, but that's a bit different from being numerous. And I can't see any sign of one just now...

I'm afraid you are putting words in people's mouths - unless of course you can actually find a post anywhere on here in which someone stated baldly "that there will NEVER be a five-car set running on a service booked for a 10-car". Which would be a patently stupid statement to make, as things will inevitably go wrong on occasion.

The people shouting 'Voyager' were busily asserting that five vice 10 would be happening all the time and that there would be timetabled five-car services at Paddington in the peaks - despite the md of GWR being on the record stating that all morning arrivals into Paddington and late-afternoon and early-evening departures from London will be nine-car and 10-car formations. So no surprise some of us got a bit bored with all the 'Voyager' stuff and said so.

 

[jyte]

I mean...I've twice seen a board/heard in person a PA that a 10 car would run as a 5 car (with one 5 car set locked out), but both times it was because of 'staffing availability issues' or something - GWR certainly weren't making it sound like an issue with their shiny new trains.

As far as I'm concerned, GWR, DfT, Agility and Hitachi deserve time to bed down the service and these new trains. No launch is ever flawless.

 

[BestWestern]

Numerous? Really? Maybe they just aren't making it to journeycheck, which I have been keeping a close eye on in recent days to try to make sure that I avoid any service where it's a two-car 165 instead of a 180. The odd one or two, yes, but that's a bit different from being numerous. And I can't see any sign of one just now...

I'm afraid you are putting words in people's mouths - unless of course you can actually find a post anywhere on here in which someone stated baldly "that there will NEVER be a five-car set running on a service booked for a 10-car". Which would be a patently stupid statement to make, as things will inevitably go wrong on occasion.

The people shouting 'Voyager' were busily asserting that five vice 10 would be happening all the time and that there would be timetabled five-car services at Paddington in the peaks - despite the md of GWR being on the record stating that all morning arrivals into Paddington and late-afternoon and early-evening departures from London will be nine-car and 10-car formations. So no surprise some of us got a bit bored with all the 'Voyager' stuff and said so.

There are certainly no diagrammed five cars, as you say. There have been short-formed sets out and about most days this week, the total number of journeys I've no idea. Of course, five cars is better than none.

 

[BestWestern]

I mean...I've twice seen a board/heard in person a PA that a 10 car would run as a 5 car (with one 5 car set locked out), but both times it was because of 'staffing availability issues' or something - GWR certainly weren't making it sound like an issue with their shiny new trains.

As far as I'm concerned, GWR, DfT, Agility and Hitachi deserve time to bed down the service and these new trains. No launch is ever flawless.

These are two different issues; a ten car with five out of use will be a crewing matter, a five car running solo will be due to stock unavailability.

 

[43096]

As far as I'm concerned, GWR, DfT, Agility and Hitachi deserve time to bed down the service and these new trains. No launch is ever flawless.

I understand that there is inevitably that initial period when new train meets the customers and that throws up issues, but the impression being given is that the IEPs have been placed into service before they are ready. Things like coupling/uncoupling faults, some (but not all) door faults should all be found before entering service.

It's all very well saying they deserve time, but there are people paying high fares to travel. The level of service has been unacceptable for them.

 

[bonzawe]

These are two different issues; a ten car with five out of use will be a crewing matter, a five car running solo will be due to stock unavailability.

And this shows some of the advantages and disadvantages of 5 car units

1) if one unit is locked out due to staff shortage, if these were operated by 9 car sets a full train would have run and the passengers would have been better off.

2) if it is a unit shortage the likely result with 9 car unit would have been the entire train canceled

The staffing issue just questions how large the savings really are from 5 car units if the 10 car requires more staff that the 9 car.

 

[50031]

All the stuff I've been seeing says the new timetable with all electric running starts Jan 2. So depends on where you define a switchover taking place.

There seems to be some confusion over this! GWR seem to talk about January 2nd, but their new timetables now available are DEFINITELY from 1st January! Also Realtime Trains shows Turbos through to Oxford on December 31st and 387s to Didcot Parkway on January 1st. Bear in mind the New Years Day Monday timetable doesn't have commuter peak services (at least according to RTT) so there is some logic in launching the new services on this comparatively quiet weekday morning

 

[jyte]

the impression being given is that the IEPs have been placed into service before they are ready.

With the HSTs already leaving for their new lives in the great depot in the sky (and Scotland) I thought GWR didn't have any lee-way as to when they could be introduced? But I do agree about the steep fares and perhaps I should have phrased my first post better.

What I meant is that issues at customer launch (and ongoing issues) are always expectedly unexpected, one example that comes to mind was the Victoria lines fancy door edges and people's bag straps tripping them. The difference is how quickly (and permanently) the issues are addressed. If services are still running with the issues they are today at the same/similar rate of occurrence per train then that becomes an issue.

That being said, I think the 800s into hasn't been the kind of disaster some make it out to be....

 

[BestWestern]

As ever where rolling stock is concerned, some people are getting a little over-emotional about this on both sides of the fence. There are issues, they will be resolved!

 

[43096]

That being said, I think the 800s into hasn't been the kind of disaster some make it out to be....

They are high profile, though, so issues will get highlighted as with (at the other end of the age scale) the loco hauled sets on the Cumbrian Coast.

The day one PR event was an utter disaster and means the scrutiny is that much greater. Always better to quietly ease them into service and save the PR til later.

 

[Dave1987]

With the costs of the project, the huge development time, and the MASSIVE PR propaganda that was going on about these then they should be smashing the records for reliability straight off the bat. The lovers of this project/trains will always defend them no matter what.

 

[D365]

The lovers of this project/trains will always defend them no matter what.

Do you believe any other rolling stock option would have 100% reliability out of the box?

 

[Domh245]

With the costs of the project, the huge development time, and the MASSIVE PR propaganda that was going on about these then they should be smashing the records for reliability straight off the bat. The lovers of this project/trains will always defend them no matter what.

I don't see why the factors you list should see them "smashing reliability straight off the bat" - none of them compensate for the fact that early service will be plagued by operator unfamiliarity, unpolished software, and a design that hasn't been adjusted for unforeseen real world factors. The cost is a result of the way that the deal was financed, the development time is because developing a bi-modal unit from scratch with limited rolling stock experience in the UK, is unsurprisingly difficult, and the PR propaganda is just a consequence of wanting to draw attention to the fact that "new trains = we do care about passengers" than anything else. I would also point out that the time between the first unit starting testing at Old Dalby and entry into service was about 1 and a half years. I'd say that's pretty good considering it took siemens 2 years between the first 700 running around Wildenrath to first service, and the ~1 year between the first class 43 being delivered and entering service (if you ignore the class 41 which would drag that up to 4 years) given the relative complexity of each fleet.

Those that bear a grudge against this project/trains will always slate them no matter what...

 

[jimm]

They are high profile, though, so issues will get highlighted as with (at the other end of the age scale) the loco hauled sets on the Cumbrian Coast.

The day one PR event was an utter disaster and means the scrutiny is that much greater. Always better to quietly ease them into service and save the PR til later.

"Issues will get highlighted" - do you mean people posting on web forums using hyperbole like "shambolic"?

Do you really think that the media would all dutifully have stayed away on day one, two, three, etc... because the GWR press office told them to turn up in month's time?

And this in the age of social media where anyone and everyone with the right bit of electronic kit can broadcast their experiences and opinions to the world - and did in the case of the leaky air conditioning.

With the costs of the project, the huge development time, and the MASSIVE PR propaganda that was going on about these then they should be smashing the records for reliability straight off the bat. The lovers of this project/trains will always defend them no matter what.

And you will always attack them, no matter what... you know full well why the IET project is costing what it does and why it has been a long drawn-out process - the project as opposed to the Class 800s, as once the actual design was finally decided, the development period for them compares perfectly well with other new trains. The rest of it is down to the actions and decisions of HM Government. I've no idea why anyone might think that MASSIVE publicity has anything to do with initial reliability of any product, train or otherwise.

There seems to be some confusion over this! GWR seem to talk about January 2nd, but their new timetables now available are DEFINITELY from 1st January! Also Realtime Trains shows Turbos through to Oxford on December 31st and 387s to Didcot Parkway on January 1st. Bear in mind the New Years Day Monday timetable doesn't have commuter peak services (at least according to RTT) so there is some logic in launching the new services on this comparatively quiet weekday morning

The ORR has apparently approved use of the overhead wires from Maidenhead to Didcot by passenger services - see the GW electrification thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-western-electrification-progress.83452/page-206

 

[superkev]

Ther are still plenty of unresolved issues: doors problems, TMS problems, coupling problems etc.. Not all cause delay, so maybe you're unaware of them.

We'rent the first units running around on test for over 2 years.
Just goes to show that however much testing you do until the trains are used in the rough and tumble of real world operation with different fitters, drivers and of course the public there will be unforseen issues usually minor. I was surprised Hitachi didnt use them much sooner on occasional specials to help iron out the bugs.
I think the iep's once they settle down will be a worthy successor to the hat although reading this month's modern railways they may be a bit short of horses on the Scottish mountains particularly in competition with Scotrails short formed 125s.
K

 

[Mag_seven]

Was on the 08.30 Padd-Bristol this morning - ran on diesel mode throughout (i.e. not on electric mode to Maidenhead).

 

[jimm]

Appears to have been some temporary electrical issue - a number of GWR services are currently noted on Journeycheck as making extra stops in the Thames Valley or omitting calls due to previous delays

due to failure of the electricity supply earlier today.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Speaking of PR, the GWR IET introduction pales into significance compared to the torrent of media BS that cascaded across TV, radio and billboards in the early 2000s when Virgin were preparing to introduce their new trains on WCML and XC. I don't recall that all going to plan either!

 

[Filton Bank]

Was on the 08.30 Padd-Bristol this morning - ran on diesel mode throughout (i.e. not on electric mode to Maidenhead).

Broken OLE bracket on the Down Main at Southall - the thing that started the problem with 1B05. Bi-modes in diesel, electrics max 50mph.

 

[Kite159]

Who decided on the announcements when a 800 approaches Cardiff from the Newport direction?

"Change here for services to Treherbert, Ebbw Vale Parkway & Cardiff Queen Street"

[Just seems a bit odd to have Ebbw Vale Parkway instead of Ebbw Vale Town, and Treherbert instead of say "Barry" (or "Cardiff Valley Lines")]

I can't wait to try out a 800 out of Reading when it is running in electric mode, as I suspect it won't hang around

 

[Dai Corner]

Who decided on the announcements when a 800 approaches Cardiff from the Newport direction?

"Change here for services to Treherbert, Ebbw Vale Parkway & Cardiff Queen Street"

[Just seems a bit odd to have Ebbw Vale Parkway instead of Ebbw Vale Town, and Treherbert instead of say "Barry" (or "Cardiff Valley Lines")]

I can't wait to try out a 800 out of Reading when it is running in electric mode, as I suspect it won't hang around

I doubt many would change at Central for Queen Street (as opposed to journeys via Queen Street) either.

 

[Minilad]

Speaking of PR, the GWR IET introduction pales into significance compared to the torrent of media BS that cascaded across TV, radio and billboards in the early 2000s when Virgin were preparing to introduce their new trains on WCML and XC. I don't recall that all going to plan either!

Just wait until they get the "Satsumas". The BS will be of biblical proportions

 

[Roast Veg]

Thank goodness they had diesel engines to keep the services running...

 

[Jonny004]

Wondering if anybody could help please. When did 800020 enter service? I saw it at Paddington with 800012 on the 15/12/17 after arriving on 1L51 from Cardiff? Many thanks.

 

[Envoy]

Who decided on the announcements when a 800 approaches Cardiff from the Newport direction?

"Change here for services to Treherbert, Ebbw Vale Parkway & Cardiff Queen Street"

[Just seems a bit odd to have Ebbw Vale Parkway instead of Ebbw Vale Town, and Treherbert instead of say "Barry" (or "Cardiff Valley Lines")]

I can't wait to try out a 800 out of Reading when it is running in electric mode, as I suspect it won't hang around

That does seem a bit odd. Presumably Merthyr, Barry & Penarth have ceased to exist? Surely, a better announcement would be “We are now approaching Cardiff Central. Change here for Cardiff suburban routes, the valley lines and the lines to Penarth, Barry & Llantwit Major via Rhoose for Cardiff Airport”. (Not sure how many people coming from England would go all the way to Cardiff to then have to double back eastward in order to get to the Ebbw Valley. Of course, as things stand, we still have the appalling situation where Newport has no train service the the Ebbw valley).