GWR Class 800

[JN114]

Press launch of HST went as planned, didn't arrive 40+ late and didn’t give the passengers a shower from the aircon.

Point of order - no customers were showered. There was some water coming from the aircon; but the area affected was cordoned off. Any customers that got wet did so through their own actions and ignorance of the cordon.

HST aircon has showered customers in the past; as have the fresh water tanks in the ceiling above the vestibules; the gaps in the gangways between coaches and so on.

Not aware that the entire HST fleet was grounded, either...

No but I do recall the prototype being laid up for quite some time while the unions wrangled over whether it was safe to drive such a fast train...

The “grounding” for the Thursday of launch week was a precaution while the cause of certain incidents that happened on the Wednesday were investigated. The causes was attributed as data entry errors on databases used by the trains’ TMS that weren’t then “caught” by the traincrew when they made their check when stopping at the stations concerned. - the rubbish in / rubbish out analogy applies. The train did exactly what it was designed/told to do; and the day stopped enabled them to patch all the units and bring them out on the Friday. Apart from a solitary alleged incident a few weeks ago which turned out to be a misunderstanding by platform staff at the station concerned there have been no repeats. The same issue can and does happen on HSTs; albeit purely down to human error as it is a manual system as opposed to automatic on IETs.

 

[leomartin125]

800020 was noted at North Pole Depot this morning, not sure how long it's been there but has to be fairly recent.

I've been working the Class 800's this week for the first time, and I must say they aren't bad trains. Performance is interesting with a lot of the 'Can the Hitachi Technician contact the Driver' announcements still occuring. Had a door fault on today's set 1B12 and returning 1L51, on top of the Auxillary Power Supply issue that delayed the train at Acton Mainline - set was 010 and 012. Not perfect yet, but getting there slowly.

 

[D1009]

Press launch of HST went as planned, didn't arrive 40+ late and didn’t give the passengers a shower from the aircon. Not aware that the entire HST fleet was grounded, either...

I remember the Voyager fleet being grounded once when a door on one of the sets opened on the wrong side at Newcastle. There were a lot more than four sets in traffic as well.

 

[Bluejays]

But the HST prototype did run around for some years and the production trains still suffered plenty of teething troubles in their early days.

Bring back the Deltics.

 

[43096]

Point of order - no customers were showered. There was some water coming from the aircon; but the area affected was cordoned off. Any customers that got wet did so through their own actions and ignorance of the cordon.

HST aircon has showered customers in the past; as have the fresh water tanks in the ceiling above the vestibules; the gaps in the gangways between coaches and so on.

Think there is some truth stretching going on. Why was it reported that a passenger's laptop was damaged by the water? How do you cordon off an area before the water came out, or were there no passengers sat there by luck?

If you could explain how HST aircon tips water onto passengers I'd be interested to know. AFAIAA HST aircon kit is under the floor (best place for it, but easier when diesel engines are in their proper place) with ducting feeding the air up to roof level.

 

[Darandio]

If you could explain how HST aircon tips water onto passengers I'd be interested to know. AFAIAA HST aircon kit is under the floor (best place for it, but easier when diesel engines are in their proper place) with ducting feeding the air up to roof level.

The duct is on a continuous loop around the full length of the coach, it wouldn't be beyond the realms of fantasy for something such as ice build up to form before melting again and soaking those below.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some planes (e.g. Fokker 100s) build up lots of ice in the ducts to the point that you hear it rattling back on rotation.

 

[JN114]

Think there is some truth stretching going on. Why was it reported that a passenger's laptop was damaged by the water? How do you cordon off an area before the water came out, or were there no passengers sat there by luck?

I can’t speak to the first part; but it wasn’t a sudden leak. The Air Con unit had been leaking on the depot beforehand - indeed initially the decision had been made to operate the train as an HST before senior management advised us that was unacceptable; so the coach was locked out of use. If I recall it was then unlocked to enable passengers to walk through/use and the seats in the directly affected area taped off with yellow/black hazard tape.

I wasn’t there; I can only go on the information that was filtering back to us in control and the subsequent instructions that were issued to the train crew.

If you could explain how HST aircon tips water onto passengers I'd be interested to know. AFAIAA HST aircon kit is under the floor (best place for it, but easier when diesel engines are in their proper place) with ducting feeding the air up to roof level.

The duct is on a continuous loop around the full length of the coach, it wouldn't be beyond the realms of fantasy for something such as ice build up to form before melting again and soaking those below.

That would be my explanation too.

 

[GazK]

Well I'm beginning to think Japanese reliability is a myth, after yesterday's issues the 07:00 starts 27 late from Paddington then gets overtaken by the 07:30 and is now being reported 52 late, presumably all due to a fault of some kind. Thankfully allowing the 07:30 past at some point has not held up the HST I'm now squeezed on. There has been some sort of issue every week since introduction and it's never been on time at Chippenham. Roll on wires!

sorry but thats not true. I watch the 0817 every morning at Chippenham (I get the 0825 going the other way). It has been on time - not every day, but equally not late all the time.

 

[47802]

I remember the Voyager fleet being grounded once when a door on one of the sets opened on the wrong side at Newcastle. There were a lot more than four sets in traffic as well.

Yes not likely to be problem HST's would have had at launch with their low tech door system.

 

[BRX]

Yes not likely to be problem HST's would have had at launch with their low tech door system.

Is it not the case that they originally had door handles on the inside, but that these were removed soon after their introduction to service?

 

[D365]

Is it not the case that they originally had door handles on the inside, but that these were removed soon after their introduction to service?

Yep. So a bit misleading to suggest the HSTs were perfect out of the box.

Indeed, as another example of 70s engineering, the Class 313s had their own issues too.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So we appear to have come to the conclusion as we do every couple of months on these threads. That trains have always had issues in development and very few worked out of the box especially with new technology. And struggling now is no indication of future long term trends.

Glad weve cleared that up.

 

[Phil G]

sorry but thats not true. I watch the 0817 every morning at Chippenham (I get the 0825 going the other way). It has been on time - not every day, but equally not late all the time.

Sorry but i travel on it every day - whereas we often had HSTs arriving at 8:12 (how do they do that?) the 800's have never been early. maybe once on time usually arriving about 08:17 not departing until later. This week we had the emergency stop, arrival sometime after the 08:42 (ie 40+mins late) Thursday about 2 mins late and today 15+ mins late. All that money and worse performance. As i've said before they are nice trains but at the moment they are not keeping to time. That is the impression of the fare paying public rather than the watchers.

 

[Railperf]

It pains me to say it but checking realtime Trains doesn't make great reading for that diagram today. What are the set numbers and does anyone know what the problem is?

 

[Railperf]

What stands out most about the HST introduction is that there was a single pre -production train set built tested and then run in passenger service which would have allowed the major teething troubles and issues to be dealt with. But clearly here there has been a big mistake been introducing multiple train sets into service which clearly have not been tested intensely enough. Am I right in thinking there was a rush to get them into service?

 

[D365]

In what way do you think they have not been tested intensely enough? The best way to test how they behave in passenger service is to run them in passenger service, funnily enough. Clearly that’s not ideal for everyone and some are expecting 100% performance out of the box. Introducing any new fleet brings new challenges to the infrastructure - that’s why we spent so long testing them on the East Coast and then on the Great Western.

 

[50031]

I'm on 800006 now, left Cardiff Central more than 5 minutes late. We left Swansea on time. Station stops have been variable. Came up to Swansea from Bristol Parkway (1309) on 800014, 7 mins late there, became 15 minutes late approx by Neath

 

[43074]

What stands out most about the HST introduction is that there was a single pre -production train set built tested and then run in passenger service which would have allowed the major teething troubles and issues to be dealt with. But clearly here there has been a big mistake been introducing multiple train sets into service which clearly have not been tested intensely enough. Am I right in thinking there was a rush to get them into service?

Really there's no other option other than putting them in service in this way - the Turbo cascade to the West is running late, Scotrail are expecting to introduce their sets as per their original plans, what other choice is there to free up HSTs which are needed elsewhere pretty soon regardless of how their replacements are performing?

In an ideal world yes you'd probably put them on an off peak return trip on the first week or so and slowly build on that - e.g. doing two round trips, then peak services, then introducing a second diagram etc etc, but that's not been possible in this case.

 

[D1009]

I'm on 800006 now, left Cardiff Central more than 5 minutes late. We left Swansea on time. Station stops have been variable.

Isn't that common on Swansea to Paddington services, whatever operates them?

 

[43096]

Really there's no other option other than putting them in service in this way - the Turbo cascade to the West is running late, Scotrail are expecting to introduce their sets as per their original plans, what other choice is there to free up HSTs which are needed elsewhere pretty soon regardless of how their replacements are performing?

In an ideal world yes you'd probably put them on an off peak return trip on the first week or so and slowly build on that - e.g. doing two round trips, then peak services, then introducing a second diagram etc etc, but that's not been possible in this case.

But..........

IEP service introduction was several months late. So the contingency between IEP introduction and HSTs starting to go off-lease was used up as a result.

It should also be pointed out that there has been plenty of time to get IEP right - it was over 12 years from project start to in service. In that time BR designed and built the prototype HST and then ordered, built and introduced to traffic all the production sets.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Isn't that common on Swansea to Paddington services, whatever operates them?

I've been finding this rather amusing as well. We go from an entirely HST operated service with poor timekeeping to the start of 800 operation with exactly the same poor timekeeping, yet suddenly it's the new trains that are at fault. In practice it's the overall resilience of the timetable, but the IET bashers won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[D1009]

It should also be pointed out that there has been plenty of time to get IEP right - it was over 12 years from project start to in service. In that time BR designed and built the prototype HST and then ordered, built and introduced to traffic all the production sets.

Yes because the engineers of the day were allowed to do what they wanted, procurement was easier and cheaper in real terms, and today's safety requirements, both for construction and operation are far more stringent. It is a very different world today than it was forty+ years ago, not just on the railway.

 

[43096]

I've been finding this rather amusing as well. We go from an entirely HST operated service with poor timekeeping to the start of 800 operation with exactly the same poor timekeeping, yet suddenly it's the new trains that are at fault. In practice it's the overall resilience of the timetable, but the IET bashers won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

The timetable has had more and more padding added over the years to no effect. The bigger issue, and the common denominator as this has happened over the last 20 years, is FirstGroup.

 

[D1009]

The timetable has had more and more padding added over the years to no effect. The bigger issue, and the common denominator as this has happened over the last 20 years, is FirstGroup.

So had the franchise changed hands, everything would suddenly have become punctual? Even I'm laughing now.

 

[43096]

So had the franchise changed hands, everything would suddenly have become punctual?

Would have had a better chance of being so. First have been safety paranoid since Southall/Ladbroke Grove and driving standards reflect that. Defensive driving is understandable under braking, or restrictive signals, but there is just no excuse for not "getting on with it" under clear signals.

 

[47802]

But..........

IEP service introduction was several months late. So the contingency between IEP introduction and HSTs starting to go off-lease was used up as a result.

It should also be pointed out that there has been plenty of time to get IEP right - it was over 12 years from project start to in service. In that time BR designed and built the prototype HST and then ordered, built and introduced to traffic all the production sets.

Hmm lets also not forget that the IET's are having to operate beyond their original specification thanks to a distinct lack of wires.

 

[coppercapped]

Yes because the engineers of the day were allowed to do what they wanted, procurement was easier and cheaper in real terms, and today's safety requirements, both for construction and operation are far more stringent. It is a very different world today than it was forty+ years ago, not just on the railway.

BR had some strict procurement requirements about having second sources. So the second or third batch of HSTs, I can't now remember which one, had the Brush traction motors replaced by a GEC model. This caused no end of grief as the commutators went out of round and caused high brush wear. Eventually the motors had some sort of rebuild and the trains with them were concentrated on one depot, Swansea if I remember correctly.

The early sets also suffered from fatigue cracking in the cast axlebox housings on the Mark 3 coaches. Within a few years these were all replaced by a changed version with a deeper section between the axlebox and the pivot on the bogie. Before the change practically every set had traces of the white dye penetrant used to look for the cracks on the castings.

There were continual problems with the engines overheating and losing cooling water, especially in hot weather as the performance of the cooler groups was marginal. And so on and so forth. It took some years before the trains settled down.

 

[43096]

BR had some strict procurement requirements about having second sources. So the second or third batch of HSTs, I can't now remember which one, had the Brush traction motors replaced by a GEC model. This caused no end of grief as the commutators went out of round and caused high brush wear. Eventually the motors had some sort of rebuild and the trains with them were concentrated on one depot, Swansea if I remember correctly.

Still issues now with the GEC motors, but Landore know them well and generally keep them running well. Be interesting to see how ScotRail cope, as all the GEC fitted power cars go north of the border.

 

[jimm]

What stands out most about the HST introduction is that there was a single pre -production train set built tested and then run in passenger service which would have allowed the major teething troubles and issues to be dealt with. But clearly here there has been a big mistake been introducing multiple train sets into service which clearly have not been tested intensely enough. Am I right in thinking there was a rush to get them into service?

Except that, as coppercapped has noted, there were all sorts of teething problems that plagued HSTs in their early years, despite the prototype having been tested with and without passengers over the best part of four years.

The timetable has had more and more padding added over the years to no effect. The bigger issue, and the common denominator as this has happened over the last 20 years, is FirstGroup.

There's another common denominator that affects performance too - Network Rail and the infrastructure it is in charge of - for example the signalling kit in west London that plays up far too often, and the operational antique signalling museum, combined with a monument to over-zealous BR rationalisation schemes, that is the Worcester area - where a fault caused major problems for GWR much of yesterday. How exactly are things like that First Group's fault?

There are also a heck of a lot more trains out there on GW metals - even compared with the early 2000s, so opportunities for HSTs to scream along at 125mph mile after mile are rather more limited than they used to be.