GWR Class 800

[najaB]

I would have thought with deliveries a bit behind Sunday would be a working day.
K

Is it deliveries or acceptances that are behind schedule?

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss Class 800.

If anyone wishes to discuss something else, or if you see someone else go off-topic and you wish to reply, please create a new thread.

For Shinkansen discussion, click here: Shinkansen Trains Discussion

 

[TractiveEffort]

In the latest issue of Modern Railways, Ian Walmsley, who was on the disastrous first train, states that the air con failed because of a buildup of condensation. Apparently, an ordinary train can just drain it 'to a gutter,' but the IET requires a pump, which failed after a night on a hot depot.

I don't understand. Why do these trains need a working pump when older ones don't?

They don’t. Don’t believe all you read in the press.

 

[greyman42]

I must say, I was absolutely shocked at how hard the seats were. I thought the 800s would be amazing and don’t get me wrong first class totally exceeded my expectations but when I had a quick sit in a standard seat I was horrified at the hardness, the thin padding, the car seat like material. Makes a Voyager seat seem plush.

Poor comfort regarding the seats in standard appears to be an issue. Would it be a good idea to address this before they are rolled out on the East Coast ? It seems they are fine for London to Reading but for London to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh, they are going to make for a pretty uncomfortable journey.

 

[najaB]

...but when I had a quick sit in a standard seat I was horrified at the hardness, the thin padding, the car seat like material. Makes a Voyager seat seem plush.

I would want to sit in them for a while before passing judgement. I often find a firmer seat is actually more comfortable for a long journey.

 

[samuelmorris]

Agreed, almost all modern rolling stock seating is hard it seems, but some are definitely better than others.

 

[Typhoon_93]

Seating spec set by the DFT in the original design I believe the TOC’s can do something with the fabric but not the padding.

 

[ainsworth74]

I still can't get over the excellent leg room to be honest. I was staggered by it! Usually my knees are brushing against the seat in front but on the 800 it was like every standard class seat was a priority seat!

I only sampled them briefly but they didn't seem uncomfortable to me. But then I'm not one of the 'IC70s were the best seat ever and everything else was a mistake' brigade

 

[Envoy]

I can understand having a ‘thin’ back as thick seats would reduce the amount of legroom. However, if enough people are of the opinion that the seats are too firm/hard, then surely the bases could be made thicker?

 

[greyman42]

I can understand having a ‘thin’ back as thick seats would reduce the amount of legroom. However, if enough people are of the opinion that the seats are too firm/hard, then surely the bases could be made thicker?

I think the answer is to take out the foam and replace it with a sprung unit but that would cost more so I suppose it's a non starter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the answer is to take out the foam and replace it with a sprung unit but that would cost more so I suppose it's a non starter.

Not everyone dislikes foam bases, though, I prefer them.

The ironing board is a good example - the GTR version is a bit rubbish (though I don't hate them in the way many do), but ScotRail have used a different base (thicker and more angled) in the 385s and it makes a *massive* difference.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Poor comfort regarding the seats in standard appears to be an issue. Would it be a good idea to address this before they are rolled out on the East Coast ? It seems they are fine for London to Reading but for London to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh, they are going to make for a pretty uncomfortable journey.

Oh, I totally agree!

I would want to sit in them for a while before passing judgement. I often find a firmer seat is actually more comfortable for a long journey.

Oh, I totally disagree!

My comments: @greyman42 you are totally right. The Mk4 seats in my opinion are the best standard class seats out there - the 800s are great trains but the standard class seats are truly ridiculous. I'm not lying when I say that when I first sat down on one I started laughing.

@najaB - It's a matter of opinion, really.

 

[aar0]

Poor comfort regarding the seats in standard appears to be an issue. Would it be a good idea to address this before they are rolled out on the East Coast ? It seems they are fine for London to Reading but for London to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh, they are going to make for a pretty uncomfortable journey.

Of course GWR don't have any long distance routes for the 800s...

 

[greyman42]

Of course GWR don't have any long distance routes for the 800s...

I appreciate they do but it is probably too late to do anything about it. I don't hold out any hope that they will do anything with the East Coast sets either.

 

[Efc154]

Poor comfort regarding the seats in standard appears to be an issue. Would it be a good idea to address this before they are rolled out on the East Coast ? It seems they are fine for London to Reading but for London to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh, they are going to make for a pretty uncomfortable journey.

Paddington to penzance just a tad longer than kx to Edinburgh. In fact it's only really vtec north of Edinburgh from London that can rival gwr paddigton to Cornwall for length of service.

 

[Master29]

Of course GWR don't have any long distance routes for the 800s...

Er, what is Paddington to Penzance then exactly?

 

[Skimble19]

For those of you interested in the livery side of this.. noticed in Virgins latest "Red Report" an image of a class 800 in the livery that's on the test unit, but with a black front instead of a yellow front.

The image is quite small and in the background of a photo of their simulator, but it's clear enough to see. Could just be a mock-up of course but will be interesting to see what they go with.

Edit: it's not been uploaded to their website yet (various old versions are scattered around the site though!) but is available at stations.

 

[Goldfish62]

Er, what is Paddington to Penzance then exactly?

I assume the OP was being sarcastic.

 

[Railperf]

I can offer some interesting information on Class 800 performance after recording some speed data from IET, HST and Class 180 on Friday.
Starting eastbound from Reading station the 800's seem to have an initial EMU type surge off the line reaching half a mile around 20 secs ahead of an HST at around 50mph, but from that point on, a HST's superior acceleration allows it to reel the 800's in.

A HST is back level with a Class 800 at around 7 miles, the IET 'only' doing 102 mph, the HST now at 115 mph. fast forward to 11.5 miles, into the run, and the HST is now 18 secs ahead doing 123mph compared to the IET's 112mph. I couldn't record any more meaningful data west of Maidenhead as the IET's switch to AC mode at that point. Plus both the HST and Class 180 I recorded were stopping at Slough.

Neither however matches a class 180 which storms away to a 45 second lead at 7 miles and is already doing 123mph. at 11.5 miles a 180 is almost a minute ahead of the 800. I'm told the 800's will not be uprated to 940hp as they have comply with DfT specification. I was also reminded that the uprated 802's for all operators come with larger fuel tanks - so maybe there is that operational and cost issue that would determine the viability of uprating 800's.

The current timetable is pretty slack, and therefore the class 800's are coping okay with it.

My analysis of the 800's indicates that on station to station sections where linseed is a maximum of 90mph or lower, the 800's superior acceleration is worth 15 to 20 seconds over an HST, and if the braking is superior, then further time can be shaved off too. Above those speeds an HST is likely to be superior especially on distances over 7 miles.

 

[SamYeager]

Now that we've had a couple of weeks service what does reliability look like? Have any issues arisen that look as though they'll take a while to resolve? I realise that two weeks is a short period and that the first week had some high profile disruptions but how did the second week go?

 

[Railperf]

Attached is a speed vs distance graph of two IET runs vs Class 180 and HST. Class 180 in red, HST in Orange, the two IET runs are blue and green. THE HST and Class 180 were both stopping at Slough

 

[Roast Veg]

@Railperf thank you very much for the data! This is exactly the information a lot of us have been waiting for.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I'm told the 800's will not be uprated to 940hp as they have comply with DfT specification. I was also reminded that the uprated 802's for all operators come with larger fuel tanks - so maybe there is that operational and cost issue that would determine the viability of uprating 800's.

You've been told wrong. The GWR 800 units are uprated to 700kW (940hp) but the acceleration rate is governed to 0.7 m s/s and the engine management system adjusted to provide a more even torque. That is what came out of the timing tests done earlier this year, the aim being to find an optimal setting whereby the sets meet the overall HST journey times. The 800 sets in GWR passenger operation also have the larger fuel tanks as they have to be capable of doing up to 900 miles on diesel.

 

[Noddy]

Attached is a speed vs distance graph of two IET runs vs Class 180 and HST. Class 180 in red, HST in Orange, the two IET runs are blue and green. THE HST and Class 180 were both stopping at SloughView attachment 36147

Is the second IET acceleration curve (after 65k feet) on AC? It seems faster than the initial acceleration.

 

[Railperf]

Thanks for the clarification. The individual that told me was a driver training manager on one of the morning services out to Swansea. But maybe he is not someone with the correct information or he felt that answer would put my question to bed.

 

[Railperf]

Is the second IET acceleration curve (after 65k feet) on AC? It seems faster than the initial acceleration.

The IET acceleration curves are almost identical until the AC changeover location. The data indicates that on one of the runs the driver cut off power much earlier and initiated his change over to AC mode earlier and at a lower speed than the other but thereafter both runs more or less start accelerating to 125 miles an hour in AC mode from the same point close to Taplow station. And yes we could visually see that the pantographs had been raised from the shadow as it was a clear sunny day combined with the ability of both runs to actually reach 125 miles an hour in a very short distance compare two the rather lethargic acceleration above 100 miles an hour beforehand in diesel mode.

 

[D1009]

Er, what is Paddington to Penzance then exactly?

There is no intention to run 800s to Penzance in passenger service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, but 802s have the same interior.

 

[snowball]

The IET acceleration curves are almost identical until the AC changeover location. The data indicates that on one of the runs the driver cut off power much earlier and initiated his change over to AC mode earlier and at a lower speed than the other but thereafter both runs more or less start accelerating to 125 miles an hour in AC mode from the same point close to Taplow station. And yes we could visually see that the pantographs had been raised from the shadow as it was a clear sunny day combined with the ability of both runs to actually reach 125 miles an hour in a very short distance compare two the rather lethargic acceleration above 100 miles an hour beforehand in diesel mode.

I don't think Noddy was referring to a difference between the blue curve and the green curve, but between the first acceleration phase (in both curves) and the second.

Am I right in deducing that these runs are from Reading to Slough?

 

[D1009]

Yes, but 802s have the same interior.

They may at present, but do we know for certain they will retain that interior when they enter service, as they are not part of the IEP.