GWR Class 800

[D1009]

Intercity doesn't need to focus on dwell times and it is so marginal as to be ridiculous.

Nonsense, try catching an HST from Plymouth to Penzance.

 

[D365]

Intercity doesn't need to focus on dwell times and it is so marginal as to be ridiculous.

Err, yes it does, platform space at major stations is becoming more precious than ever.

 

[asylumxl]

Apart from, er, the Shinkansen trains which use sliding doors at high speed. It's not the cheap option, it's the option that gives the shortest dwell times.

Just to add, Hitachi weren't convinced that plug doors would be reliable enough to meet the contractual requirements regarding failures. They have only recently begun to use them on their stock (the 385s).

 

[Dave1987]

I thought the forum "experts" had already made it perfectly clear that these trains are utterly brilliant in every single way......

 

[Darandio]

I thought the forum "experts" had already made it perfectly clear that these trains are utterly brilliant in every single way......

Really? I thought the forum "experts" had already made it perfectly clear that these trains were garbage without setting foot on one?

 

[D365]

I thought the forum "experts" had already made it perfectly clear that these trains are utterly brilliant in every single way......

As opposed to the alternative, which is completely writing them down before they've turned a wheel in passenger service?

 

[Dave1987]

As opposed to the alternative, which is completely writing them down before they've turned a wheel in passenger service?

I seem to remember certain forum members dismissing Roger Fords comments because they didn't fit with their opinions even though RF has actually been on one! Like I said certain forum "experts" won't have a word said against them.

 

[CosherB]

Fair comment and certainly - There are several gripes, but by far the biggest is the very lazy attention to aesthetics between the coaches - not only is everything over exposed, but the distances between the coaches are in no way disguised and it looks very ugly. But more than this, the huge one is the great gaping gap and under the coaches between each - look at the 91s and mark 4 sets - look at the Pendolino, look at the German ICE 4 equivalent, Italian classic line trains being brought in, none have such a clunky, thoughtless gap under the coaches where the inner 'clunk' and workings are laid bare with pipes, and wires as well as a tone of fresh air for all to see. There's no attempt at 'wow' factor or streamlining. This is not the norm even with our existing Intercity's - not even with the Voyagers.

So that's my biggest dislike. Then we come to the doors - no other Intercity here or in Europe has them shoved inwards from the ends and I hate the inlay too, and no, I don't care at all for the excuses made for this - the best example of IC trains are in Germany and they don't make this aesthetic carbuncle of an error - neither have we up to now.

Then we come to the front ends - We have a grey skirt which looks like it was an afterthought and is too small - again, if this had been body-coloured it would make a huge aesthetic difference (again, see most IC's in the UK and Europe).

Then we come to the roof - what a dog's breakfast - where's the streamlining? Flat with clunky looking equipment stuck on at either end with further 'bits' between. No attempt (like the area between the coaches underneath) to cover up the 'innards' of the train.

This has been economising to the point where we have a front end (nose should have been longer but that part I agree could be overly picky) that is otherwise ok, but a body where laziness abound.

Notice too, finally, that the area between the wheels dropping between each coach, which should make it look streamlined (and should follow through to the area between the coaches) that even the grey part (again imagine this being body coloured) looks as though it's been stuck on as an afterthought - look at the top of that grey section where it meets the body of the rest of the coach under each - there's a strange gap/line of connection and it is not flush.

The worst thing is, I'm stuck with looking at this until I'm an old man!!

I am praying the high speed stock looks the part, because otherwise we won't have an Intercity train to be proud of in the UK.

Body wise (and not ride wise) the Pendolino is the best looking we have and I can't fault much on that. If the ride matched and wasn't so clunky to ride in, and you could hear the clock tick, I could forgive the lack of room for tilt.

Utter guff. Form should follow function. Quite why you are so hot under the collar about looks is a mystery ... I'm more interested in a decent service in clean reliable trains. Have you designed many trains? :roll:

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I personally think it is important that design and aesthetics follow ease of maintenance and practicality, which in turn generate a high reliability level. Think the BR Standard locomotives in the 1950s - many traditionalists bemoaned the exposed pipework and high running plate on aesthetic grounds, but they didn't half make life easier (and cheaper) for the technical staff.

The customer will not care what is underneath the body, as 90% of the time they will go straight from platform to interior without a second glance.

What concerns me is the performance of the trains (admittedly only in diesel mode, electric will be exceptionally good) and internal ambience. My main interior gripe is likely to be the floor height related to overhead luggage racks on the engined cars; being a tall chap I'm rather prone to banging my head.

 

[RichW1]

Nonsense, try catching an HST from Plymouth to Penzance.

It's nonsense because there's so much padding, so please, don't throw that as an excuse

 

[RichW1]

Err, yes it does, platform space at major stations is becoming more precious than ever.

Again, I quote the padding in the timetable, which is to render the timetable a nonsense. There's plenty of time to 'dwell'. The timetables are a joke.

 

[RichW1]

Utter guff. Form should follow function. Quite why you are so hot under the collar about looks is a mystery ... I'm more interested in a decent service in clean reliable trains. Have you designed many trains? :roll:

With your attitude, nothing would look good and form would mean everything should be damn ugly, so I would rethink your comment. If everything was to be form following function to economic perfection, we'd have everything looking crap. No Concorde, no 125, no Ferrari, no ICE4 frankly.

ICE 4 completely destroys your point anyway.

 

[Domh245]

With your attitude, nothing would look good and form would mean everything should be damn ugly, so I would rethink your comment. If everything was to be form following function to economic perfection, we'd have everything looking crap. No Concorde, no 125, no Ferrari, no ICE4 frankly.

ICE 4 completely destroys your point anyway.

Concorde - a design that arose solely to be able to fly at supersonic speeds - not because of aesthetics

125 - I'll give you that one

Ferrari - “Race cars are neither beautiful nor ugly. They become beautiful when they win.” Enzo Ferrari

ICE 4 - I'm not sure what you see in it to be honest. Are you it's mother?

 

[D365]

Maybe this should be spun off into a separate discussion since the design has long been finalised and this is obviously a matter of strong personal opinion...

 

[jimm]

You know this for certain do you? since the 800s are built to a DFT specification while the 802's are being built to First Group specification and will have a different technical spec so there would seem to be no reason why they couldn't have a different interior spec as well providing they meet the franchise agreement.

It was made very clear a couple of years ago that buffet cars were history on GW services once the HSTs went.

At no point in any publicity about the 802s from the day they were ordered has there been the slightest suggestion that they would have a buffet area.

The glossy brochure produced for the GWR IET (ie no differentiation between 800s and 802s) launch last year has nothing more to say about catering than the line I quoted previously about an at-seat service and the stuff about Pullman dining.

Therefore, I think it's a safe bet that there won't a buffet on the GWR 802s, with the same regular catering offer on all GWR IET services, whether worked by an 800 or 802, plus a limited number of Pullmans.

 

[najaB]

125 - I'll give you that one

95% of the HST's esthetics is down to function.

 

[najaB]

If everything was to be form following function to economic perfection, we'd have everything looking crap.

I've never once heard someone say "Too bad the train/bus/car broke down and I'm stuck here, but at least it looks good." :roll:

 

[Bornin1980s]

95% of the HST's esthetics is down to function.

Indeed, even the famous cab redesign came about because the unions rejected the original, on grounds of the single seat and poor visibility. BR also took the opportunity to refine the aerodynamics and improve the headlight clusters.

 

[CosherB]

With your attitude, nothing would look good and form would mean everything should be damn ugly, so I would rethink your comment. If everything was to be form following function to economic perfection, we'd have everything looking crap. No Concorde, no 125, no Ferrari, no ICE4 frankly.

ICE 4 completely destroys your point anyway.

Do you work for DB or Siemens? :roll:

 

[Domh245]

95% of the HST's esthetics is down to function.

Fair enough. I was under the impression that the plan was for something similar to the prototypes but then Kenneth Grange redid the nose to what it is now, along with the original livery (ie to do with the aesthetics) - and I'd also argue that the nose of the HST is by far and away it's defining feature in terms of looks

 

[D1009]

It's nonsense because there's so much padding, so please, don't throw that as an excuse

So why do they lose time when it's busy, then?

 

[D365]

It's nonsense because there's so much padding, so please, don't throw that as an excuse

Padding isn't added to the timetable to allow for "lazy design".

 

[RichW1]

I've never once heard someone say "Too bad the train/bus/car broke down and I'm stuck here, but at least it looks good." :roll:

I have more faith in creating things that are aesthetically pleasing and not JUST functional. We would never have Georgian houses if we took your view, we'd never have Roman architectural history or Greek. Britain's infrastructure would have no redeeming features at all. Everything would be 60's concrete and bland. When something breaks down, how wonderful it is to be surrounded by a developed nation concept.

 

[RichW1]

So why do they lose time when it's busy, then?

Because 'they' can't run a railway that's why. Every time things are running 'normally', the train to Edinburgh is always 5 minutes early. The train to York is always early now they've added 5mins other than when something does happen or a path is taken, then it's 'on time'. Then we have the 10minute rule, so taking that into account, there's a whole 15minites to play with where you can be 'on time'. It's nonsense.

BR used to have a timetable, it stuck to that timetable. Today, for the same journeys you add 5 minutes or 10 minutes to the timetables, and still there will always be problems. I do not think the answer lies in making people trip over themselves to get on the train with what soon will be men in white gloves ramming you on like Japan, because you have 90seconds to board. What a ridiculous and primitive world!

I digress. Lazy design ultimately makes things look dull. This is why there's a large industry in the UK in design - it takes the functionsal and gives it form that can make the world look more impressive and pleasing, as well as functional.

The idea that things don't need to look nice is a very unambitious and depressing world view. 60's council estates were functional.

 

[CosherB]

I have more faith in creating things that are aestheticaly pleasing and nit JUST functional. We would never have Georgian houses if we took your view, we'd never have Roman architectural history or Greek. Britian's infrastructure would have no redeeming features at all. Everything would be 60's concrete and bland. When something breaks down, how wonderful it is to be surrounded by a developed nation concept.

Not everything built since the Second World War is a 'monstrous carbuncle' some would have us believe .....

https://heritagecalling.com/2015/09/17/10-of-englands-best-post-war-buildings/

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm not entirely sure I believe that British Railways was a paragon of punctuality and as for aesthetics, compare the likes of Classes like 414, 315, 317 to any of the EMUs currently being introduced - the 700, 720, 745 etc. - to say that aesthetics were given far more thought then compared to now is in my opinion quite laughable. The idea that flagship express trains were given a bit more care in the looks department is not new, dating back to the steam days and it still carries on now I would argue. I personally think the Class 800s look very good, their appearance does quite suit the role they'll be fulfilling. The minor details that might negatively impact their looks for the sake of functioning correctly really don't bother me. Everyone's entitled to an opinion about this sort of thing but I have to say I disagree.

 

[tbtc]

I thought the forum "experts" had already made it perfectly clear that these trains are utterly brilliant in every single way......

Really? I thought the forum "experts" had already made it perfectly clear that these trains were garbage without setting foot on one?

My memory from those conversations was that there were people who accepted the compromises of IEP (the trade off between diesel and electric, the need to adapt to different markets, the benefits of being able to run shorter trains on certain services or on certain portions of services)...

...and those who offered no realistic alternative other than moaning about the new trains and some misty eyed nostalgia about sixteen coach services that ran once per year from Euston towards Scotland.

I don't recall anyone saying that they are brilliant in every way - maybe Dave could find that quote though?

Not sure I get the taper point and why that restricts door location

26m stock allows more seats (per metre of train).

26m stock means tapered ends to coaches (though many fast trains have a degree of taper).

So, stick the "other" facilities (bogs etc) at the end of the coach, with the doors further away from the end - which has the benefit that passengers don't need to walk past the toilets (I'm sure the Voyagers wouldn't have had so many complaints if passengers didn't have to walk past the bogs!).

So the space between the doors can be used for 100% seating - better use of space.

Ride quality on Pendolino better than a 225? I can't agree there, as Pendolino's keep clunking underneath when they tilt a lot of the time underneath the train and you can hear it, the high pitched sound when ideally you want as near to silence as possible (I accept 225's now do this as well with these damn AC motors which have done nothing for the passenger). But the space, and quite ride I'd take in a 225 over a Pendolino any day

225s were never great trains but are really showing their age now - give me a 390 any day!

Intercity doesn't need to focus on dwell times and it is so marginal as to be ridiculous. No mainland European train does this, many Chinese don't do this, and this is a classic line train, not high speed and not Shinkansen.

On the busy UK railway, we don't generally have the luxury of being able to segregate different markets on the same line (there are a handful of places where this happens, but it generally means fixating on Milton Keynes).

Maybe on the perfect continent you can run specific types of train to cater to specific markets, but on the GWML you have to accept that Didcot/ Reading etc are major commuter markets - and that Reading sees a significant turnover of passengers - but there can be a dozen fast services per hour on the GWML - so the idea of a ten minute dwell time at intermediate stations isn't feasible.

Same goes for stations like Wakefield and Durham being dormitory boroughs for nearby cities (Leeds, Newcastle).

We need a train that can cope with modern British passenger demands - using the benchmark of foreign railways is fairly meaningless.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I'm slightly confused by the news that construction is just begun on the Virgin fleet. Firstly, I didn't think this would be news, as I always assumed the two fleets would be all but identical. Secondly, does this mean that the Azuma prototype currently doing the rounds is actually just a temporary demonstration paint job on a train which will ultimately be serving elsewhere?

On another subject, having just travelled on a VTEC HST full of football fans, I'm curious about the intended purpose of the five car units, as one five car unit could never work an east coast diagram on its own. Are the five car units actually intended as two halves for splitter trains to different destinations, which would then join up halfway along the line? On a related note, can an 800 work in multiple with an 801 on electrified sections?

Also, has anyone actually been inside yet? I am concerned about the narrow bodies. Are they close enough to the space available in a Mark 3 carriage?

 

[ainsworth74]

On another subject, having just travelled on a VTEC HST full of football fans, I'm curious about the intended purpose of the five car units, as one five car unit could never work an east coast diagram on its own. Are the five car units actually intended as two halves for splitter trains to different destinations, which would then join up halfway along the line? On a related note, can an 800 work in multiple with an 801 on electrified sections?

Yes they will run in pairs. For example ten cars to Doncaster and five to Hull and Leeds. Or ten cars to Leeds and five terminate and five go to Harrogate.

Yes, as far as I'm aware, you can mix and match under the wires so you could have a ten car set to Newcastle made up of five car electric to Newcastle and a five car bi-mode then onwards to Sunderland.

Outside of service disruption I'd be surprised if there were many sets running around in five car formation on the ECML proper.

 

[samuelmorris]

I assumed some of the 5-cars would be doing the above, with a few used for the 'all stations' Newark/York services and the proposed Lincoln service.