GWR Class 800

[jyte]

Rather an odd choice of social media platform for this kind of thing. Anyway, here's the photo...

I'm not sold on these trains yet (turn of phrase) but I think it looks pretty stunning in that shade of green and under the sun.

Unrelated:

Does anyone know what's the expected performance of an impaired 5 car 800? I think (I'm not sure!) the 5 car trains have 3 560Kw diesel engines and the 9 car trains have 5. Lets say a 5 car 800 looses an engine.

So I've got four questions.
1) Will 5 car 800s be allowed to run on 2/3 engines?
2) What would its 'new' stop speed (on the flat) be?
3) Would it make it up the South Devon banks for example? (I'm presuming it would, but slowly!)
4) Would the impact on its ability to stick to the timetable lead to it being pulled from service for repairs or would it just be a 'deal with it running late' scenario?

Sorry for the amount of questions!

 

[leomartin125]

Except that it isn't the first Class 800 trip to South Wales - unless they mean the first GWR liveried set?

It seems that GWR use 800004 as their official IET set, so wherever that goes that is new, GWR report on it. All other IET's are Hitachi and the one Virgin, so GWR wouldn't report on it.

 

[najaB]

4) Would the impact on its ability to stick to the timetable lead to it being pulled from service for repairs or would it just be a 'deal with it running late' scenario?

Agility Trains would lose payment for the diagram if it runs late, so assuming they have another set that could be substituted then it behoves them to do so.

 

[D1009]

I'm not sold on these trains yet (turn of phrase) but I think it looks pretty stunning in that shade of green and under the sun.

Unrelated:

Does anyone know what's the expected performance of an impaired 5 car 800? I think (I'm not sure!) the 5 car trains have 3 560Kw diesel engines and the 9 car trains have 5. Lets say a 5 car 800 looses an engine.

So I've got four questions.
1) Will 5 car 800s be allowed to run on 2/3 engines?
2) What would its 'new' stop speed (on the flat) be?
3) Would it make it up the South Devon banks for example? (I'm presuming it would, but slowly!)
4) Would the impact on its ability to stick to the timetable lead to it being pulled from service for repairs or would it just be a 'deal with it running late' scenario?

Sorry for the amount of questions!

1) There is no reason to suppose that class 800s will not be allowed to run with one or more engines isolated, as is the case with other DMUs.
2) That remains to be seen.
3) A 10 car formation has already been successfully tested on Hemerdon with one of the 5 car sets providing no power whatsoever.
4) No different from any other type of traction.

 

[47802]

I'm not sold on these trains yet (turn of phrase) but I think it looks pretty stunning in that shade of green and under the sun.

Unrelated:

Does anyone know what's the expected performance of an impaired 5 car 800? I think (I'm not sure!) the 5 car trains have 3 560Kw diesel engines and the 9 car trains have 5. Lets say a 5 car 800 looses an engine.

So I've got four questions.
1) Will 5 car 800s be allowed to run on 2/3 engines?
2) What would its 'new' stop speed (on the flat) be?
3) Would it make it up the South Devon banks for example? (I'm presuming it would, but slowly!)
4) Would the impact on its ability to stick to the timetable lead to it being pulled from service for repairs or would it just be a 'deal with it running late' scenario?

Sorry for the amount of questions!

1) In the event of a loss of an engine the remaining 2 engines are supposed to run at full power 700KW to minimise impact on performance.
2) probably similar but slightly slower to get there
3) Devon Banks should be worked by full power 700KW versions will it make up the banks, see above post.
4) Should have minimal impact on performance for the 560KW versions on their allotted route, but clearly likely to have more of an impact on 700KW versions on 700KW routes ie Devon&Cornwall

 

[jyte]

1) In the event of a loss of an engine the remaining 2 engines are supposed to run at full power 700KW to minimise impact on performance.
2) probably similar but slightly slower to get there
3) Devon Banks should be worked by full power 700KW versions will it make up the banks, see above post.
4) Should have minimal impact on performance for the 560KW versions on their allotted route, but clearly likely to have more of an impact on 700KW versions on 700KW routes ie Devon&Cornwall

1) There is no reason to suppose that class 800s will not be allowed to run with one or more engines isolated, as is the case with other DMUs.
2) That remains to be seen.
3) A 10 car formation has already been successfully tested on Hemerdon with one of the 5 car sets providing no power whatsoever.
4) No different from any other type of traction.

Thank you both.

 

[jimm]

I'm not sold on these trains yet (turn of phrase) but I think it looks pretty stunning in that shade of green and under the sun.

Unrelated:

Does anyone know what's the expected performance of an impaired 5 car 800? I think (I'm not sure!) the 5 car trains have 3 560Kw diesel engines and the 9 car trains have 5. Lets say a 5 car 800 looses an engine.

So I've got four questions.
1) Will 5 car 800s be allowed to run on 2/3 engines?
2) What would its 'new' stop speed (on the flat) be?
3) Would it make it up the South Devon banks for example? (I'm presuming it would, but slowly!)
4) Would the impact on its ability to stick to the timetable lead to it being pulled from service for repairs or would it just be a 'deal with it running late' scenario?

Sorry for the amount of questions!

We've done all this before (often several times) - a lot of questions people keep asking about these trains can be answered by looking at the IEP technical specification here

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/82840/tts-redacted.pdf

but to answer the specific points:

1. Answered with the rider that the diesel engines of Class 800s are not 'impaired' or 'derated'. They are perfectly capapble of operating at full power output but the engine management system is set up in such a way that in normal operation, with all three (or five) engines working, the engine management system is set to run them at a reduced power output. If an engine fails, then the management system steps up the others to run at full power to compensate - and the trains have been designed form the off to operate in this way.
2. Ask Hitachi.
3. Class 800s are not expected to get any further west in normal service than Exeter and Torbay - which is why the Class 802s, with engines that offer full power all the time, have been ordered by GWR for services to Plymouth and Cornwall - and will likely work the peak Cotswold Line services that need nine-car sets and the extra power will help in the Malvern Hills and up Chipping Campden bank.
4. Even on two engines at full power, a five-car set has 1,880hp to call on - yes some of that will be lost to 'hotel' power - but it won't be that short of grunt and the sections where these trains are expected to be using diesel power long term don't have any speed limits above 100mph. Once the key sections of the GWML are wired, much of the diesel running will be a long way from any Hitachi depot, such as in the Cotswolds and Worcestershire, so pulling a set from service won't be an option, at least until it can get itself back to London or wherever. In the meantime someone will have to decide whether to swap it for another set, or switch it on to a diagram where it would just be using electric power until it can visit a depot.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they were placed on a route that's normally operated with either Meridians or Voyagers (assuming tilt disabled on a Voyager and both Meridians and Voyagers having similar performance profiles), how well would they keep to booked times if they were run purely in diesel mode (with no failed engines)?

 

[jimm]

A pair of Class 800s look to have done a series of test runs between Swindon and Reading West junction today.

One of them was 800002 - the Hitachi branding is a giveaway - but I don't know the number of the other set, which was in plain grey livery. They passed my train into Reading while on their way from North Pole depot to Swindon.

Does anyone know what these runs were testing?

 

[najaB]

If they were placed on a route that's normally operated with either Meridians or Voyagers (assuming tilt disabled on a Voyager and both Meridians and Voyagers having similar performance profiles), how well would they keep to booked times if they were run purely in diesel mode (with no failed engines)?

This is purely a guess, but according to posts on this thread they smashed HST timings easily so I think they'd do pretty well compared against a Voyager/Meridian.

 

[800001]

800011, along with 009 and 010 parked outside at Merchant Park, with 1 car of 800012 poking out of the shed.

 

[Bornin1980s]

800011, along with 009 and 010 parked outside at Merchant Park, with 1 car of 800012 poking out of the shed.

Where can I go to view them? I've been told that Merchant Park is totally off limits, and unviewable.

 

[DidcotDickie]

A pair of Class 800s look to have done a series of test runs between Swindon and Reading West junction today.

One of them was 800002 - the Hitachi branding is a giveaway - but I don't know the number of the other set, which was in plain grey livery. They passed my train into Reading while on their way from North Pole depot to Swindon.

Does anyone know what these runs were testing?

Reported elsewhere that they were running on AC between Tilehurst and Didcot and vv whilst other traffic running. Apparently this was to test for any further electrical interference issues.

According to RTT, the 800s did two return runs from Reading to Swindon and then returned to North Pole depot. The final scheduled return run was cancelled.

 

[D1009]

A pair of Class 800s look to have done a series of test runs between Swindon and Reading West junction today.

One of them was 800002 - the Hitachi branding is a giveaway - but I don't know the number of the other set, which was in plain grey livery. They passed my train into Reading while on their way from North Pole depot to Swindon.

Someone posted earlier that 800003 and 800004 had worked from North Pole to Swansea on Monday morning, and from RTT it looks as though they are still there, so by process of elimination the other set was probably 800001. I'm not sure 800005 upwards have been involved in any testing.

Reported elsewhere that they were running on AC between Tilehurst and Didcot and vv whilst other traffic running. Apparently this was to test for any further electrical interference issues.

According to RTT, the 800s did two return runs from Reading to Swindon and then returned to North Pole depot. The final scheduled return run was cancelled.

Well let's hope the interference issues have been sorted.

 

[800001]

Where can I go to view them? I've been told that Merchant Park is totally off limits, and unviewable.

Public footpath runs adjacent to the side of factory.
Also public footpath next to the test track which is parallel with the Bishop Auckland line.

The road leading to the factory entrance some times has trains visable and can occasionally see into the test section of the factory, anything visable from there is never usually identifiable.

 

[ajay1071]

I think it's time to head over to see if I can see it poking its nose out, then ^_^

Does anyone have any idea when it will be heading back to Bristol/North Pole?

800 003 + 004 due to depart Swansea 18.34 tomorrow (7th) for Stoke Gifford.

 

[spark001uk]

A pair of Class 800s look to have done a series of test runs between Swindon and Reading West junction today.

One of them was 800002 - the Hitachi branding is a giveaway - but I don't know the number of the other set, which was in plain grey livery. They passed my train into Reading while on their way from North Pole depot to Swindon.

Does anyone know what these runs were testing?

I saw 002 in the morning outside NP, with its nose retracted, and 001 was being maneuvered out of the shed toward it, so I'm guessing those two.

 

[Trailfinder]

I can confirm it was 800001. Going into Paddington at 14:10, both units were in Royal Oak sidings. Half an hour later they were in North Pole.

 

[AlexNL]

Will just leave this here
140mph Virgin train set for Hertfordshire lines is dangerous, says the mother of one of the drivers
http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co....-the-drivers/story-30241431-detail/story.html

And cows along the route will be so disturbed that they'll stop giving milk? :roll:

 

[jimm]

Some pictures of the 800s yesterday at Challow and Stevenson - taken by Martin Loader - are here http://hondawanderer.com

 

[Sean Emmett]

This is purely a guess, but according to posts on this thread they smashed HST timings easily so I think they'd do pretty well compared against a Voyager/Meridian.

Really? That's not the impression I'm getting at all! Sounds like the diesel engines will need to be uprated to their max power to have a chance of matching let alone beating HST schedules.

It will be a different story on electric though. Expect Javelin performance.

 

[najaB]

Really? That's not the impression I'm getting at all! Sounds like the diesel engines will need to be uprated to their max power to have a chance of matching let alone beating HST schedules.

Unless I've misunderstood Clarence Yard's posts, the testing on the GWR route has been conducted with the engines derated and the acceleration turned down as well.

 

[jimm]

Unless I've misunderstood Clarence Yard's posts, the testing on the GWR route has been conducted with the engines derated and the acceleration turned down as well.

My reading of what Clarence Yard said was that the tests involved trying a variety of settings, both at full power and with the engine management system limiting the output, to find the combination that best allows the trains to match HST timings when using the diesels.

 

[jyte]

My reading of what Clarence Yard said was that the tests involved trying a variety of settings, both at full power and with the engine management system limiting the output, to find the combination that best allows the trains to match HST timings when using the diesels.

The conversation I had with a 'senior' GWR employee (wearing a suit, sitting in first class, seemed to know what he was talking about) a week or so ago now was that tests were showing that on diesel with max rated engines IEPs were 'beating' HST times due to their lighter weight. He did not say by how much.

However, GWR/DFT/NR/Hitachi (he said "we're") are not interested in 'beating' HST times right now due to the increased engine wear and fuel consumption that arises as a result. Beating HST times will come with electrification.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The conversation I had with a 'senior' GWR employee (wearing a suit, sitting in first class, seemed to know what he was talking about) a week or so ago now was that tests were showing that on diesel with max rated engines IEPs were 'beating' HST times due to their lighter weight. He did not say by how much.

However, GWR/DFT/NR/Hitachi (he said "we're") are not interested in 'beating' HST times right now due to the increased engine wear and fuel consumption that arises as a result. Beating HST times will come with electrification.

Not quite. The original timing/fuel test in January was done at 700kW, 110 mph max and the acceleration was at 0.82. This showed that HST point to point timings could nearly be matched but the engine torque was all over the place. Fuel consumption was good, in excess of what could be expected by the contract limits.

The recent three test runs were done with the set able to go above 110 mph (thanks to the ATP being signed off) but with the acceleration set at the favoured 0.7. At 565kW it was anaemic and leaving them like that would end up with worsened journey times to/from Bristol and South Wales compared with an HST.

At 700kW it got to 120mph and (give or take the odd half minute) kept to the HST point to points. At 700kW with one engine out it struggled to 105mph and would have caused operational headaches if it did it in traffic. In all three tests the engine torque was more constant within each test but obviously varied between tests.

The fuel consumption in each test was good and as a result FG are pressing the contracting parties to have the contract fuel mileage limit raised. The contract talks between the DfT and Agility to have the engines set at 700kW are apparently still ongoing. Introduction day is still 16th October, at the moment.

 

[snowball]

Thanks to Clarence Yard for that detailed information!

Does Roger Ford read this site?

 

[E_Reeves]

Hi,

Can anybody identify the GWR IEP(s) at Southampton today? I counted 8 cars all together, so there may be a mixture of sets, as there are no 8-car units, but may have been 9-car set (one car may have been missing or I might have miscounted).

Thanks

 

[59CosG95]

Hi,

Can anybody identify the GWR IEP(s) at Southampton today? I counted 8 cars all together, so there may be a mixture of sets, as there are no 8-car units, but may have been 9-car set (one car may have been missing or I might have miscounted).

Thanks

Was this at the docks or at So'ton Central station?

 

[Bornin1980s]

I was of the understanding that they were limited to 100 mph in diesel mode. Does that limit not apply when the engines are used at their full rating? I once read that HST's can reach maximum speed with just one working engine (half power), but acceleration is seriously affected.

Also, it seems we've reached a bit of an impasse in diesel engine development, as these 21 L engine seem to struggle to produce more power than a Cummins 19 L engine of nearly 20 years ago. In the 50s, 60s and 70s, engine seemed to get more powerful every two years. Is it that pollution laws have limited development in that direction since then?

I do not think an engine under every vehicle is the answer. We've been enduring that for too long. That said, the use of electric transmission instead of hydro mechanical transmission should make the power cars more comfortable than conventional DMU cars.

Public footpath runs adjacent to the side of factory.
Also public footpath next to the test track which is parallel with the Bishop Auckland line.

The road leading to the factory entrance some times has trains visable and can occasionally see into the test section of the factory, anything visable from there is never usually identifiable.

Can you access these footpaths by rail? Also, I will be going to Exeter between Monday and Thursday next week. I won't have much time for train watching, but does anyone here know when they are likely to pass through Exeter next week, if at all?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was of the understanding that they were limited to 100 mph in diesel mode. Does that limit not apply when the engines are used at their full rating?

The IEP contract limits them to 100mph in normal service, presuming the wires would cover higher speed routes.
With the wires not extending to Bristol Parkway/Box, they are trying to agree a new contract for 125mph on diesel, to match HST times.
There will be a price to pay (higher fuel consumption, more intensive maintenance, shorter life).