GWR Class 800

[43074]

Perhaps if they were introduced on Worcester/Hereford services first where 125mph west of Reading doesn't really matter, then Bristol/Cheletenham services after that when wires to Swindon are completed

That is more or less what will be happening anyway - the first trains to be replaced by the IETs will be the 5 180s, Autumn 2017 is when the HST replacements are due to start

 

[800001]

Not sure any of the test trains are complete for passenger service (eg seats, catering equipment, PIS etc).
They may not yet be certified with GW ATP which is a prerequisite for passenger service.
These early units are likely to need modifications/upgrade as a result of the testing programme, and will be recycled back through the factory before passenger use.
That's also why the production programme has a slow ramp up, to allow mods to be applied before they are rolled out for service.
Just like what happens to a new aircraft type.
And anyway, there aren't enough GW wires yet (they are not designed or contracted as diesel-only trains).

PS The ''expensive assets'' belong to Hitachi/Agility and won't be costing the TOCs anything until the service contract starts.

800004 has all internal fittings in situ.
800001/002 and 800101 are all basically shells with ballast weights inside and test equipment.

800003 which has been sat outside Hitachi Merchant Park and has not entered the test programme as yet, is completely fitted out internally.

 

[swt_passenger]

That is more or less what will be happening anyway - the first trains to be replaced by the IETs will be the 5 180s, Autumn 2017 is when the HST replacements are due to start

I made the same point ages ago, but the response was that there'd be an internal stock shuffle and 800s would NOT be used as direct 180 replacements.

 

[jimm]

I thought that they would be only be electronically limited to 100mph in diesel mode to reduce wear on the engine, so surely if there electrification is not completed sufficiently by then, they can just turn the limiter off until it is completed sufficiently?

The train's speed is not limited. It is the diesel engine power output that is limited by the engine management system.

The contract Agility Trains has with the DfT for the Class 800s reflected the expected use of diesel traction in normal circumstances on routes with speeds limits of 100mph or less, rather than sustained 125mph running on diesel.

So far, there isn't an agreement between Agility and the DfT on covering extra costs that would be incurred if the engines were operating at full power all the time until the wiring work on the 125mph sections of the GWML is completed.

Perhaps if they were introduced on Worcester/Hereford services first where 125mph west of Reading doesn't really matter, then Bristol/Cheletenham services after that when wires to Swindon are completed

So what speed do you think HSTs and 180s on Oxford and Cotswold services run at between Reading and Didcot?

GWR is under just as much if not more pressure to release HSTs so that they can be overhauled for use in Scotland as it is to hand 180s to GC.

Until some nine-car 800s are available to GWR, it cannot replace HSTs on busy Cotswold Line peak services, because 2x5-car Class 800 formations cannot be used on the route. Signal locations at some stations (Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh spring to mind) make it impossible to stop part of both sets on some platforms.

I belleve the first batch of 800s to enter service will all be five-car units, and will be operating in pairs between Paddington and Bristol/Cardiff, where they will also be close to Hitachi depots in case of any issues.

 

[RobShipway]

The train's speed is not limited. It is the diesel engine power output that is limited by the engine management system.

The contract Agility Trains has with the DfT for the Class 800s reflected the expected use of diesel traction in normal circumstances on routes with speeds limits of 100mph or less, rather than sustained 125mph running on diesel.

So far, there isn't an agreement between Agility and the DfT on covering extra costs that would be incurred if the engines were operating at full power all the time until the wiring work on the 125mph sections of the GWML is completed.



So what speed do you think HSTs and 180s on Oxford and Cotswold services run at between Reading and Didcot?

GWR is under just as much if not more pressure to release HSTs so that they can be overhauled for use in Scotland as it is to hand 180s to GC.

Until some nine-car 800s are available to GWR, it cannot replace HSTs on busy Cotswold Line peak services, because 2x5-car Class 800 formations cannot be used on the route. Signal locations at some stations (Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh spring to mind) make it impossible to stop part of both sets on some platforms.

I belleve the first batch of 800s to enter service will all be five-car units, and will be operating in pairs between Paddington and Bristol/Cardiff, where they will also be close to Hitachi depots in case of any issues.

I am sure that I read within this thread, plus within both Rail and Modern Railways magazines that the class 800's would be starting on the Oxford and Cotswold services being used on their own?

 

[Clarence Yard]

I am sure that I read within this thread, plus within both Rail and Modern Railways magazines that the class 800's would be starting on the Oxford and Cotswold services being used on their own?

That was the original plan, to replace the 180 units first. The introduction date was going to be 10/07/17. Then it was double units on the HST diagrams that would have ended as requiring diesels with the 9 car electrics coming in last on the HST South Wales and Bristol only diagrams. May 2018 when Swansea was first due to be switched on was crucial in the electric IEP introduction.

The NR infrastructure issues saw that plan ripped up late last year. The 10 cars will now start first, on the Bristol and South Wales HST diagrams, first day in traffic was 24/07/17. The 180 sets would go with the December 2017 timetable (replaced by 5 car 800 sets - 4 diagrams) and the 9 cars, now bi-mode, would go on the HST diagrams that work the North and South Cots. 10 car working on those lines is out, till at least Dec 2018.

At every timetable change the HST diagrams are altered to suit the incoming 800 units, which have a completely different maintenance regime to comply with. That means it isn't one in, one out as you need more long 800 units diagrammed than equivalent HST sets to comply with the TARA maintenance regime which requires longer downtimes than the HST sets. As you have to operate long trains in the pre Dec 2018 timetables (apart from the existing 180 workings) you can't cheat on this by going load 5 vice an HST.

The 24/07/17 date is now pants thanks to the GW test section being delayed. Agility has told the DfT that the units (both GW and EC) will now be delivered at least 3 months late because of this (apparently they can do this in their contract) and this is causing everyone grief as the HST cascade to Scotland means these units have to enter service on GW during 2017. There are some high level discussions going on at the moment to try and sort this king size mess out.

Incidentally, going "full chat" on the IEP engines may sort out some of the potential timing issues on the diesel sections but the fuel consumption goes through the roof as a result. That affects the ability to complete a days work without having to go to depot sometime during the day, depending on the diagram. That is another issue that is being currently looked into as well as the effect of having to slightly decelerate some existing HST services in advance of introducing 800 units on them.

The only current good news is that any potential delay to the Agility units doesn't affect the 802 deliveries - that is a different contract, with Hitachi only and FG are in full control of that one.

 

[jimm]

I am sure that I read within this thread, plus within both Rail and Modern Railways magazines that the class 800's would be starting on the Oxford and Cotswold services being used on their own?

For a 'soft' introduction to service, a straight Class 800 for Class 180 swap on their four diagrams would have been fine.

But I assumed the posters above talking about the Cotswold Line thought that as there aren't any speed limits higher than 100mph once you leave the GWML at Didcot the route offered an ideal opportunity to switch almost all the timetable there to 800s (working alone or 2x5), along with related duties between London and Oxford).

If that were possible, then you could indeed take out a number of HSTs and the 180s (and free some Turbos for other work on GWR) and give Network Rail a little more time to push wiring west of Didcot to reduce the miles needed to be covered by 800s running at 125mph on diesel.

But the HSTs have to stay in the Cotswolds for the time being for the reason I noted above, so the 800s will appear elsewhere first.

 

[leomartin125]

For a 'soft' introduction to service, a straight Class 800 for Class 180 swap on their four diagrams would have been fine.

But I assumed the posters above talking about the Cotswold Line thought that as there aren't any speed limits higher than 100mph once you leave the GWML at Didcot the route offered an ideal opportunity to switch almost all the timetable there to 800s (working alone or 2x5), along with related duties between London and Oxford).

If that were possible, then you could indeed take out a number of HSTs and the 180s (and free some Turbos for other work on GWR) and give Network Rail a little more time to push wiring west of Didcot to reduce the miles needed to be covered by 800s running at 125mph on diesel.

But the HSTs have to stay in the Cotswolds for the time being for the reason I noted above, so the 800s will appear elsewhere first.

Apparently to plans by GWR and DfT, the GWR IEP's will initially be on the Bristol Temple Meads, Hereford and Cardiff Central trains, releasing HST's to be used on other parts on the route until they begin to be phased out.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are GWR anywhere near to deciding what the units will be known as or is it possible that they'll also call them Azumas?

 

[D365]

Are GWR anywhere near to deciding what the units will be known as or is it possible that they'll also call them Azumas?

Always asking the important questions

 

[Clarence Yard]

Apparently to plans by GWR and DfT, the GWR IEP's will initially be on the Bristol Temple Meads, Hereford and Cardiff Central trains, releasing HST's to be used on other parts on the route until they begin to be phased out.

The released HST units go to Scotland. The May 2017 HST diagrams are designed specially for the introduction of the 800 sets on the Bristol/South Wales routes so it will be 2 x 800 replacing one HST, which then goes to Scotland, via conversion. Currently October is the planned introduction to service month, with 2 HST diagrams going on the first day.

December 2017 is when they are due to go onto the North Cots, in single 5 car formations, just replacing the 180 diagrams. The December 2017 HST diagrams are altered again from May 2017 to cope with the introduction of the remaining 5 cars (in 10 car formations) on the Bristol/South Wales runs. Some of these 10 cars will go load 5 at the country end, to places like Taunton, WSM and Carmarthen.

Again, all the released HST units in this phase are due to go to Scotland, via conversion. However if the (unlikely) opportunity arises to fit a GWR GTI conversion into that part of the Scottish conversion programme, it will be taken.

 

[ash39]

Almost definitely not seeing as 'Azuma' translates as 'East', not a very good fit for GWR...

 

[TheKnightWho]

Almost definitely not seeing as 'Azuma' translates as 'East', not a very good fit for GWR...

The GWR Nishi?

 

[Bishopstone]

Where GWR replace an HST with 2 x 800, do they propose to have a Standard catering trolley and First Class complimentary trolley in both units?

 

[Hophead]

Once upon a time, they were to be known as Super Express Train. Perhaps they will be again

 

[D365]

Once upon a time, they were to be known as Super Express Train. Perhaps they will be again

That was Hitachi's own brand name for the product that they submitted for the IEP tender.

 

[leomartin125]

That was Hitachi's own brand name for the product that they submitted for the IEP tender.

I don't know whether it was a joke GWR calling them the 'Green Machine' but it stuck for a bit. Maybe they will revive it in June 2017 when services launch. Personally it sounds terrible, especially for a TOC that prides itself with 'high quality'.

 

[Taunton]

Running the diesels sustained at full power for 125mph is one thing, but as was found when the HSTs first came out, more significant is the way they are used in service, particularly out of Paddington, where so many services are just about 20 minutes between stops, or speed reductions, and the engines are used full power-shut off-full power-shut off. I don't believe this was envisaged in the diesel's original duty cycle. An engine has to work harder to accelerate to 125mph than it does to sustain it.

The issues with the HST shortly after introduction were generally around the heating/cooling of the various components, not just the radiator group but the whole of the mechanical parts of the engine, which gave rise to all sorts of issues not envisaged on the test bed, or in the prototype, which had been run for lengthy periods at full power when the thermal cycle of components has a chance to settle down. There are comparable experiences in the past where diesel engines from lorries which perform well on the motorway are applied to buses stopping every 200 yards. First signs of trouble are typically leakage of lubricant and coolant, and failures of minor components.

 

[Pure BR]

GWR and VTEC have different contracts with Agility, the trains have different internal specs, the HSTs to be cascaded are on different leases, VTEC are not ready, the franchise terms have been set.

Still need to train up drivers/maintenance and on board staff. All takes lots of time.

 

[D1009]

Who is currently driving the test runs? Do Agility have drivers seconded from the TOCs for this purpose?

 

[GazK]

Who is currently driving the test runs? Do Agility have drivers seconded from other TOCs for this purpose?

D B Schenker are providing the drivers.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

 

[Mintona]

D B Schenker are providing the drivers.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

I don't know for certain, but I'm fairly sure it's GB Railfreight.

 

[D365]

Yeah I was going to say, the provision of GBRf drivers is usually a rite of passage for new rolling stock.

 

[59CosG95]

I don't know for certain, but I'm fairly sure it's GB Railfreight.

Yes, I heard it was GBRf too-I caught 800s 001 and 002 at Willesden Jct earlier this year; 2 GBRf drivers definitely swapped places!

 

[GazK]

I don't know for certain, but I'm fairly sure it's GB Railfreight.

I stand corrected - just checked my source material and you're right. DBS are providing the test equipment and testing staff, that was getting me confused.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

 

[gsnedders]

How long does it take to get traction knowledge for a brand new train (i.e., as one of the first drivers for testing)? I presume the use of FoCs is down to driver availability, given there will obviously be a cost associated with having to train an extra person (beyond those who will drive in service) for the traction?

 

[leomartin125]

Yes I was certain GBRf provide driving staff as I have a friend who's father is a GBRf driver and he has driven 800004 a fair few times now.

 

[Harbornite]

D B Schenker are not providing the drivers.

I'd rather not be the pedantic one, but DB no longer brand their uk rail operations as DB Schenker. It's DB Cargo UK/DB Cargo.

 

[jimm]

Apparently to plans by GWR and DfT, the GWR IEP's will initially be on the Bristol Temple Meads, Hereford and Cardiff Central trains, releasing HST's to be used on other parts on the route until they begin to be phased out.

Did you actually read the post by Clarence Yard above mine - or my previous post - before you wrote this?

There are no 180 workings to Hereford, only HSTs (and a Turbo on Sundays), so it would be a bit hard to for GWR to replace Hereford workings without any nine-car Class 800s available, for the reason I explained above.

 

[RobShipway]

Apparently to plans by GWR and DfT, the GWR IEP's will initially be on the Bristol Temple Meads, Hereford and Cardiff Central trains, releasing HST's to be used on other parts on the route until they begin to be phased out.

Did you actually read the post by Clarence Yard above mine - or my previous post - before you wrote this?

There are no 180 workings to Hereford, only HSTs (and a Turbo on Sundays), so it would be a bit hard to for GWR to replace Hereford workings without any nine-car Class 800s available, for the reason I explained above.

A copy of the post that Jimm is referring too is below, which was Clarence Yard answering a point of mine:

I am sure that I read within this thread, plus within both Rail and Modern Railways magazines that the class 800's would be starting on the Oxford and Cotswold services being used on their own?

That was the original plan, to replace the 180 units first. The introduction date was going to be 10/07/17. Then it was double units on the HST diagrams that would have ended as requiring diesels with the 9 car electrics coming in last on the HST South Wales and Bristol only diagrams. May 2018 when Swansea was first due to be switched on was crucial in the electric IEP introduction.

The NR infrastructure issues saw that plan ripped up late last year. The 10 cars will now start first, on the Bristol and South Wales HST diagrams, first day in traffic was 24/07/17. The 180 sets would go with the December 2017 timetable (replaced by 5 car 800 sets - 4 diagrams) and the 9 cars, now bi-mode, would go on the HST diagrams that work the North and South Cots. 10 car working on those lines is out, till at least Dec 2018.

At every timetable change the HST diagrams are altered to suit the incoming 800 units, which have a completely different maintenance regime to comply with. That means it isn't one in, one out as you need more long 800 units diagrammed than equivalent HST sets to comply with the TARA maintenance regime which requires longer downtimes than the HST sets. As you have to operate long trains in the pre Dec 2018 timetables (apart from the existing 180 workings) you can't cheat on this by going load 5 vice an HST.

The 24/07/17 date is now pants thanks to the GW test section being delayed. Agility has told the DfT that the units (both GW and EC) will now be delivered at least 3 months late because of this (apparently they can do this in their contract) and this is causing everyone grief as the HST cascade to Scotland means these units have to enter service on GW during 2017. There are some high level discussions going on at the moment to try and sort this king size mess out.

Incidentally, going "full chat" on the IEP engines may sort out some of the potential timing issues on the diesel sections but the fuel consumption goes through the roof as a result. That affects the ability to complete a days work without having to go to depot sometime during the day, depending on the diagram. That is another issue that is being currently looked into as well as the effect of having to slightly decelerate some existing HST services in advance of introducing 800 units on them.

The only current good news is that any potential delay to the Agility units doesn't affect the 802 deliveries - that is a different contract, with Hitachi only and FG are in full control of that one.