GWR Class 800

[Bletchleyite]

Don't know, the way I read it the slope is at either end with a level floor over the middle of the coach consisting of most/all of the actual seating area.

As the engine is going to be roughly in the middle (it can't be under the bogies) I would imagine the bit over the engine will be the high bit. I sort of assumed it'd be symmetrical, but I guess it doesn't have to be.

 

[jimm]

I'm sure there is a document somewhere dictating the degree of slope that requires warning signs. Roger Ford has pointed out previously that the coaches with engines have a double step up into them from the platform so the floors are clearly considerably higher than other trains that have level floors.

How many more times do you have to go on about this slope?

Messrs Ford and Walmsley said precisely nothing about it in their article about the 800, so it can't be that terrifying - there was just a picture of the warning notices on a vestibule door.

Railfuture representatives took a look at the mock-up at DCA's studio in 2014 and had the following to say

the slope to the lower floor level was noticeable but should not present any problems.

www.railfuture.org.uk/dl898

Don't know, the way I read it the slope is at either end with a level floor over the middle of the coach consisting of most/all of the actual seating area.

Yes, that is the arrangement.

 

[Dave1987]

How many more times do you have to go on about this slope?

Messrs Ford and Walmsley said precisely nothing about it in their article about the 800, so it can't be that terrifying - there was just a picture of the warning notices on a vestibule door.

Railfuture representatives took a look at the mock-up at DCA's studio in 2014 and had the following to say



www.railfuture.org.uk/dl898



Yes, that is the arrangement.

We are never going to agree on this. You seem to like these trains. I think the bi-mode concept is stupid, and I believe the cost of the whole project stinks.

 

[southern442]

www.railfuture.org.uk/dl898

What idiot looked at those standard class hand grips on the seats and thought 'yeah, they're perfect'?

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure there's any sense in which there's a big problem with this interior slope.

What is nonsense is that, give we have standard platform height now, we are designing trains that have a floor significantly higher than this. That's what's bonkers

 

[southern442]

I'm not sure there's any sense in which there's a big problem with this interior slope.

What is nonsense is that, give we have standard platform height now, we are designing trains that have a floor significantly higher than this. That's what's bonkers

I didn't even know there was a standard platform height in place. What is the point of having a regulation platform height if you aren't even going to use it. That's just poor, short-sighted designing.

 

[fowler9]

I didn't even know there was a standard platform height in place. What is the point of having a regulation platform height if you aren't even going to use it. That's just poor, short-sighted designing.

I get a nose bleed getting on to a 142 on platform 2 at Mossley Hill.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I get a nose bleed getting on to a 142 on platform 2 at Mossley Hill.

In that case stop picking your nose! It's disgusting habit

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I didn't even know there was a standard platform height in place. What is the point of having a regulation platform height if you aren't even going to use it. That's just poor, short-sighted designing.

Platform height is something of a nightmare. 915mm is the general standard, but for step-free access, you need around 1100mm, which is too high to allow some container wagons, some rolling stock and lots of track maintenance machinery, or if it does allow them to pass, it's at 5mph to minimise yaw and maintain clearances.

 

[fowler9]

In that case stop picking your nose! It's disgusting habit

Ha ha. I probably should do. It is really hard to do with my chewed nails. I should probably stop doing that so I can claw my way up to the passenger cabin of the Bi-Modes. Giving up smoking may be on the list to.

 

[455driver]

Railfuture representatives took a look at the mock-up at DCA's studio in 2014 and had the following to say
www.railfuture.org.uk/dl898

Don't like it very much do they!

 

[southern442]

Don't like it very much do they!

I thought it looked to be quite a dodgy report. They went on criticizing the grab handles, doors, vestibules, seats etc., but then went on to say that the 800 was an 'excellent high-speed unit'. Did the DfT pay them to say that? Or did a group of fellow IEP haters pay them to say all the bad stuff? We shall never know.

 

[fowler9]

Are the grab handles made out of barbed wire or something? They do look a bit meh in my opinion but I'll reserve judgement until I have clambered up inside one.

By looking a bit meh I just mean that I can't imagine someone who has been on a Pendolino thinking "Ooh I have to try this out" as in a class 800. This could all be down to the kitting out which of course isn't in the colours of the operators. At the same time I really want to have a go on an e320.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The grab handles look a decent enough design to me in that they appear easy enough to grab. What's the issue with the grab handles?

 

[fowler9]

The grab handles look a decent enough design to me in that they appear easy enough to grab. What's the issue with the grab handles?

You could have someones eye out with one! The 800's just look a bit ordinary to me in this day and age. As long as they work though.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You could have someones eye out with one! The 800's just look a bit ordinary to me in this day and age. As long as they work though.

I think the emphasis appears to have been bums on seats more than anything else. And in all fairness I don't think many travelers pay much attention to the train once they are actually on it but that's only from what I've observed. The testing of the trains is certainly exhaustive!

 

[Dave1987]

Don't like it very much do they!

Funny how all the criticisms of these trains that have been discussed in detail on this thread and dismissed by supporters of this project are all criticised in this report as well!

 

[fowler9]

I think the emphasis appears to have been bums on seats more than anything else. And in all fairness I don't think many travelers pay much attention to the train once they are actually on it but that's only from what I've observed. The testing of the trains is certainly exhaustive!

Indeed, I think you are 100% correct. To be honest as long as they work, and I would say I am confident they will work pretty well then I will be happy. It is bizarre how the world has changed. When I was very young Liverpool FC got their first kit sponsor. Hitachi. I associated them with Televisions and other consumer goods.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Indeed, I think you are 100% correct. To be honest as long as they work, and I would say I am confident they will work pretty well then I will be happy. It is bizarre how the world has changed. When I was very young Liverpool FC got their first kit sponsor. Hitachi. I associated them with Televisions and other consumer goods.

Now then I know this is off topic but that's going back a few years! As a 49 year old Derby County supporter the first Liverpool kit sponsor that I ever noticed was Crown Paints so I can't have been paying much attention to MOTD before then Our's was Fly British Midland; I still have the shirt but I can't get in it!

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Railfuture representatives took a look at the mock-up at DCA's studio in 2014 and had the following to say

www.railfuture.org.uk/dl898

Pretty much what I have been saying about it. All the design issues that have been a bone of contention since the introduction of mark 3 stock in the early 1970s have been perpetuated.

 

[The Ham]

Don't like it very much do they!

Some of the comments, such as long dwell times because of passengers taking their time to get past people with stuff on the fold down tables seemed a bit OTT, as is doesn't cause problems on the 444's which are much more likely to have frequent calling patterns and commuters with cups of coffee.

Most people will, especially if they have luggage, will get up from their seat before arriving at their station.

Likewise their suggestion to have folding tables to assist with exiting from the window seat. Personally I think that they are more prone to getting dirty and tend to look untidy (less sleek lines). Again most people aren't going to benefit much.

Yes there are some undesirable seats, but probably no more so than the flip down seats on the 222's. Not does poor window alignment mean that people don't like the units (class 444 is a case in point, mostly loved other than by those who didn't want to lose the 442's but with poor window alignment). For some, I.e. those who are looking at a screen fit much of the time, they may not mind much not having a window.

Of course, for all the comments about people preferring table seating there is still the issue of if you do as they suggest and get rid of 4 seats per standard class coach that's something like 24 seats over a 9 coach train. That is 24 people who have a choice as to weather to find another seat (if there are any), seat in a seat that isn't ideal or stand and let someone else who is willing to sit there sit down rather than stand.

Again the 444's (which are quite well liked) only have a total of 4 tables and although they are often groups looking for empty tables there can be times when quite a number of airline seats are occupied and the tables are empty. Although it is not common for there to be some (I.e. at least one) tables empty and there to be sufficient numbers of airline seats occupied. OK, the 444's are less likely to have families travelling on them, but intercity trains are hardly full of families and most will have booked in advance so will have seat reservations anyway.

They noticed the slope, but weren't overly critical of it, again I think that people would start to complain about the loss of headroom before being overly critical of the angle of the ramp. As I pointed out yesterday a 1:20 slope could result in the loss of half a metre of headroom but would still be a DDA compliant ramp. I also pointed out that 1:20 is generally the ramp between a road and footway at pedestrian crossings and people cope with them fairly easily.

 

[jimm]

We are never going to agree on this. You seem to like these trains.

You keep telling the rest of us that we 'like' these trains in some kind of blanket way, which is not my reading of what I see here - but clearly you're not going to let that stop you, are you?

I don't like the way the DfT orders are being funded but I don't like PFI generally because, even as an accountancy manoeuvre to get debt of the Government's books, it's just stupid, given how much more it costs taxpayers in the long run.

I'm sure there will be aspects of the interiors I like and aspects I don't - same as pretty much any train I have ever been on here and abroad - but I am also sure I won't be working myself into a fit over a slight slope in a short section of the floor.

I like the bi-mode concept because it will enable through services to be maintained to destinations where electrification is not going to happen in a hurry - and prospects for any substantial extensions beyond the current plans in the GWR area are likely to be at least a decade away now.

But that does not mean that I see the bi-mode concept as the acme of perfection, just a necessary solution that I prefer to hitching and unhitching diesel locos - assuming you can find one in the first place that likes accelerating like something off a shovel then braking to a stand five minutes later over and over again all day, every day - and doesn't catch fire like the 68s.

And make sure the sums add up if you actually consider how many of the things would be needed just to maintain the frequencies planned for the likes of the Cotswold Line - a core hourly London-Worcester service for about 18 hours a day, plus assorted extensions to/from Malvern and Hereford, with a half-hourly frequency in the directions of the main morning and evening peak flows - good luck trying to diagram locos for that lot and then get them to depots nowhere near the route for maintenance or find space at Oxford station for loco release roads - and this at a location where all concerned are desperate to minimise shunt moves in the station area in future to maximise line capacity - hence why the idea of electrifying a stub of the eastern end of the Cotswold Line to get 387s out to Hanborough or Charlbury to turn back there is being discussed.

I think the bi-mode concept is stupid, and I believe the cost of the whole project stinks.

None of us would ever have guessed...

What idiot looked at those standard class hand grips on the seats and thought 'yeah, they're perfect'?

Re the hand grips, they were discussed at some length by Ford and Walmsley and they noted that Hitachi was doing what the current regulations on such things obliged them to do. They added that Hitachi weren't happy with the result either and were looking at possible alternatives.

 

[Goldfish62]

The grab handles look a decent enough design to me in that they appear easy enough to grab. What's the issue with the grab handles?

According to Modern Railways the grab handles are going to be replaced with a new design as they're not fit for purpose.

 

[The Ham]

You keep telling the rest of us that we 'like' these trains in some kind of blanket way, which is not my reading of what I see here - but clearly you're not going to let that stop you, are you?

I don't like the way the DfT orders are being funded but I don't like PFI generally because, even as an accountancy manoeuvre to get debt of the Government's books, it's just stupid, given how much more it costs taxpayers in the long run.

I'm sure there will be aspects of the interiors I like and aspects I don't - same as pretty much any train I have ever been on here and abroad - but I am also sure I won't be working myself into a fit over a slight slope in a short section of the floor.

I like the bi-mode concept because it will enable through services to be maintained to destinations where electrification is not going to happen in a hurry - and prospects for any substantial extensions beyond the current plans in the GWR area are likely to be at least a decade away now.

But that does not mean that I see the bi-mode concept as the acme of perfection, just a necessary solution that I prefer to hitching and unhitching diesel locos - assuming you can find one in the first place that likes accelerating like something off a shovel then braking to a stand five minutes later over and over again all day, every day - and doesn't catch fire like the 68s.

And make sure the sums add up if you actually consider how many of the things would be needed just to maintain the frequencies planned for the likes of the Cotswold Line - a core hourly London-Worcester service for about 18 hours a day, plus assorted extensions to/from Malvern and Hereford, with a half-hourly frequency in the directions of the main morning and evening peak flows - good luck trying to diagram locos for that lot and then get them to depots nowhere near the route for maintenance or find space at Oxford station for loco release roads - and this at a location where all concerned are desperate to minimise shunt moves in the station area in future to maximise line capacity - hence why the idea of electrifying a stub of the eastern end of the Cotswold Line to get 387s out to Hanborough or Charlbury to turn back there is being discussed.



None of us would ever have guessed...



Re the hand grips, they were discussed at some length by Ford and Walmsley and they noted that Hitachi was doing what the current regulations on such things obliged them to do. They added that Hitachi weren't happy with the result either and were looking at possible alternatives.

Quite, my view is that I am going to wait and see how the units are in real life before criticising them. Until they are operational I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite, my view is that I am going to wait and see how the units are in real life before criticising them. Until they are operational I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

And myself. Though I am reasonably positive about them - I think in principle they look like good solid workhorses.

 

[Master29]

Out of curiosity a BBC article states 3 years behind schedule on the electrification front so I wonder if the West of England dual powered AT300`s will be seen before any of the others? Then again, it was the BBC so......

 

[southern442]

According to Modern Railways the grab handles are going to be replaced with a new design as they're not fit for purpose.

I think that is an understatement they are unusable! Merely for decoration.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Out of curiosity a BBC article states 3 years behind schedule on the electrification front so I wonder if the West of England dual powered AT300`s will be seen before any of the others? Then again, it was the BBC so......

No - the 800s are dual powered and some are already delivered. There has been talk (up thread) of some/all of the otherwise identical 801s getting diesel engines added to them when built anyway. I cannot recall when the 801s get built but the 802s (AT300s) will arrive from Italy in parallel to the 800/801 (IEP) deliveries from Newton Aylcliffe.

 

[swt_passenger]

According to Modern Railways the grab handles are going to be replaced with a new design as they're not fit for purpose.

I thought Ian Walmsley's part of the article laid the blame pretty much at them naively following the height and clearance (width) specifications given, the implication being that none of the typical current seat top handles as seen in HSTs etc. actually meet the height spec either. If that is the case the RVAR or wherever the spec comes from probably needs changing.

 

[sprinterguy]

I cannot recall when the 801s get built but the 802s (AT300s) will arrive from Italy in parallel to the 800/801 (IEP) deliveries from Newton Aylcliffe.

The electric class 801s will follow directly after the 5-car Bi-mode 800 sets, with deliveries expected between February and July 2018.