GWR Class 800

[Domh245]

Shelves by the vestibule is a bad place to leave things. It is liable to get stolen. It happens. One thief stole a case with an IRA bomb in it a few years ago and had to confess to the police. You can get a case big enough for a couple of weeks stay between the seat backs in a Danish IC train, and more than that one would not want to lug around. The same was true with the original seating on the earlier batches of mark 2 stock, which were designed with that aim in mind.

If vestibule luggage racks are such an awul idea, why did they come as standard on Mk3 and Mk4 stock?

 

[krus_aragon]

You know what I didn't realise that the bike racks converted into extra storage for luggage. Very intelligent idea although I can foresee issues if a bike gets on and it's full of luggage or vice versa.

That's already the case with, for example, bike storage on the 175s. As the bike storage is immediately between the inner doors and seating area on coach C boarding passengers place their luggage on the floor there (luggage racks are at the outer end only). It makes for good fun if boarding with a bike on an ex-Holyhead carrying ferry passengers.

 

[455driver]

If vestibule luggage racks are such an awul idea, why did they come as standard on Mk3 and Mk4 stock?

The don't!

Are you saying that mk3 and mk4 stock have luggage racks in the vestibule (by the exterior doors) away from the saloon area?

 

[Domh245]

The don't!

Are you saying that mk3 and mk4 stock have luggage racks in the vestibule (by the exterior doors) away from the saloon area?

No i meant the luggage racks inside of the saloon area but at the ends of them - near the vestibules rather than in the vestibule. My bad!

For what it is worth, I've been on a few trains where the luggage has been piled up inside the vestibules. Admittedly it was the weekend that the university broke up and lots of students were heading back, but there was a stack of suitcases a couple of cases high which rather limited access to the train from the platform. If it were an AT300 instead of an EMT HST, a few of these cases would have made their way into the bike/luggage storage bits, and some would have made it into the overhead racks, which were only partly filled.

 

[Dent]

Shelves by the vestibule is a bad place to leave things. It is liable to get stolen. It happens. One thief stole a case with an IRA bomb in it a few years ago and had to confess to the police. You can get a case big enough for a couple of weeks stay between the seat backs in a Danish IC train, and more than that one would not want to lug around. The same was true with the original seating on the earlier batches of mark 2 stock, which were designed with that aim in mind.

What better location would you propose for the luggage stacks?

The space between seat backs is a red herring. There can not be enough such spaces for every passenger to put their luggage, these spaces can only be a supplement, not an alternative, to luggage stacks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More and more people have airline hand luggage sized trolley bags - a family of four having one each rather than one or two big cases for everyone. Overheads are the best place for them, really, if they are big enough.

 

[DarloRich]

More and more people have airline hand luggage sized trolley bags - a family of four having one each rather than one or two big cases for everyone. Overheads are the best place for them, really, if they are big enough.

You need both as there are too many people who insist on travelling with cases the size of my house!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

You need both as there are too many people who insist on travelling with cases the size of my house!

Yes, but these tend to be the newer Samsonite style of cases - smaller footprint, deeper profile - they fit in the new luggage racks with less wasted space, so you get more cases on each rack. Smaller versions of these will fit into the overheads too.

Don't see many people with those old suit cases you used to see Del Boy carting around the market in Only Fools and Horses these days, but that's what the old Mark 3s were designed around.

What you really want, of course, is a decent North Face waterproofed canvas bag that can be squeezed into overhead racks, spaces on luggage racks, under seats or between back to back seats etc.

It does seem ever so slightly odd that our EU overlords haven't managed to have standardised suitcase sizes, and dumped those sizes into the TSI for train accommodation, that wouldn't be at all a bad idea, actually.

 

[The Ham]

I'm fairly convinced that charging points are, like wifi, a short term requirement that will cease to be useful well within the lifetime of the stock. Battery technology is improving all the time.

Charging points will continue to be needed all the time there are mobile devices. Although the need/use will fall as battery technology improves, as even if batteries last a week on standby there will still be people who will forget to charge their device or would be heavy users who would need to top their device up on the go.

 

[AM9]

... there will still be people who will forget to charge their device or would be heavy users who would need to top their device up on the go.

Just like there will still be people who forget their tickets or railcards, or who turn up late. Fortunately, these people who do persistently forget things that are important to themselves are in a minority so the railway doesn't need to cater for each and every foible. Eventually most of them will get into the habits that don't inconvenience themselves. The heavy users can still have portable charging devices. My 6.6AH USB battery will charge my tablet twice, giving about 6-8 hours continuous use or charge my mobile more times than I could drain it in a single day, unless I insist on watching continuously streaming HD videos. If passengers exceed that, I'm told by jonmorris0844 that portable chargers of over 20AH are available. Even a heavily delayed train from Paddington shouldn't overtax such a suitable device.
We should discriminate between 'need' and 'want'.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Just like there will still be people who forget their tickets or railcards, or who turn up late. Fortunately, these people who do persistently forget things that are important to themselves are in a minority so the railway doesn't need to cater for each and every foible. Eventually most of them will get into the habits that don't inconvenience themselves. The heavy users can still have portable charging devices. My 6.6AH USB battery will charge my tablet twice, giving about 6-8 hours continuous use or charge my mobile more times than I could drain it in a single day, unless I insist on watching continuously streaming HD videos. If passengers exceed that, I'm told by jonmorris0844 that portable chargers of over 20AH are available. Even a heavily delayed train from Paddington shouldn't overtax such a suitable device.
We should discriminate between 'need' and 'want'.

The assumption is batteries which last for days - what if battery technology doesn't deliver on that, but moves to rapid charging instead, 12 hour battery life and 5 minutes to recharge ? Power sockets will be very useful if that's the way technology moves.

 

[najaB]

The assumption is batteries which last for days - what if battery technology doesn't deliver on that, but moves to rapid charging instead, 12 hour battery life and 5 minutes to recharge ? Power sockets will be very useful if that's the way technology moves.

Indeed there is a lot of work going on in that direction. The latest generation of handsets charge in a fraction of the time taken by older ones.

 

[AM9]

The assumption is batteries which last for days - what if battery technology doesn't deliver on that, but moves to rapid charging instead, 12 hour battery life and 5 minutes to recharge ? Power sockets will be very useful if that's the way technology moves.

The problem with a 12 hour (ish) life is that users may be away from any power supplies if walking, cycling, etc., so that could force those users to rely on portable chargers (as many already do).
Even if that was the direction of development, I can't think of any rail journeys that take anywhere near 12 hours (or whatever the nominal discharge time of essential devices is), but portable chargers are already available for those that need them.

 

[jopsuk]

I once opened a fdoor on an HST and a small bag dropped out and under the train... Closed the door and got on in the next carriage

 

[najaB]

I once opened a fdoor on an HST and a small bag dropped out and under the train... Closed the door and got on in the next carriage

So that's where my bag went!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if that was the direction of development, I can't think of any rail journeys that take anywhere near 12 hours (or whatever the nominal discharge time of essential devices is), but portable chargers are already available for those that need them.

(Almost) everyone has a mains charger, only some people have portable battery packs. And nothing's worse than finding that either your battery pack is flat too or you ended out longer than you intended to be and didn't bring it in the first place.

 

[southern442]

(Almost) everyone has a mains charger, only some people have portable battery packs. And nothing's worse than finding that either your battery pack is flat too or you ended out longer than you intended to be and didn't bring it in the first place.

Battery packs and laptop batteries in general frequently become very unreliable very quickly - I have had three laptops in my time, and the first one I had for at least 5 years. However after about a year the battery refused to work so I had to keep it plugged in or else it would shut down. Eventually I got a new one but that quickly broke. With my second, the battery lasted longer but it got to the point where if left unplugged for just 5 minutes it would run out of charge. (It then kept overheating and would refuse to turn on for more than 5 seconds, and it would only do this once a day.)

My (rather long-winded) point here is that I for one would choose mains plugs over battery packs anytime, and I'm sure that quite a lot of people would too.


Also apologies for not keeping up with the debate but are the IEP's going to have sockets in standard class?

 

[jon0844]

A mains plug is fine but I've been on some trains where the socket isn't working, which instantly makes that option a non starter.

Maybe I could move seat or carriage, but I much prefer to charge from my own power source. Then I can keep it charging in my coat pocket, or a tablet charging in a bag.

And you can get even bigger power packs. Here's another one I found (no idea on how good it might be): https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00YP823NA/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_dyXGwbPTHP514

Many good power packs cost very little, and both charge quickly themselves and also offer outputs to fast charge other devices (e.g Qualcomm Quick Charge) so they can easily be replaced, and you may end up like me in having a range of them, from lightweight ones good for a small boost to one that could keep me going for a long weekend.

My current phone charges from 0-100% in 90 minutes, and that's a 3450mAh battery good for at least 5 hours screen on time.

I've been away for 10 days over a Christmas and all I really needed was power overnight to recharge the battery pack, which many people could do in their hotel.

 

[AM9]

(Almost) everyone has a mains charger, only some people have portable battery packs. And nothing's worse than finding that either your battery pack is flat too or you ended out longer than you intended to be and didn't bring it in the first place.

So once again, most of these justifications for power outlets are either lapses of memory (human type), inadequate (so called) portable equipment or lack of journey planning. If continuous use of office equipment is so important to the passenger, why should a transport provider be obliged to equip their trains for the few at the (ultimate) expense of passengers who just want to travel?

 

[NotATrainspott]

We've seen phones and laptops get thinner and thinner rather than having better and better battery life, because there are diminishing returns of adding extra battery life. Making a laptop last significantly more than 12 hours isn't particularly useful because the vast majority of people will be in a situation to be able to charge it again within that time. It would be better, from a user's perspective, to be able to charge it back up to full again very quickly rather than having to carry around a heavier device which wouldn't really make their lives any easier. Consider the fact that Apple aim to keep each iPad's battery life 10 hours long, even though they could easily bring out modern versions with much larger batteries which would then only be the size of the original model.

In a similar way, I don't see there being a lot of effort being put into getting electric cars to have ranges significantly beyond what's currently possible in a Tesla Model S, as if you're driving for more than 200 miles at a time you're meant to stop for a rest and that time can be used to rapidly charge the car back up again. Equally there would be no point making an IPEMU with a massively long battery range, as it will be possible in the vast majority of cases to charge at intermediate points.

Adding in power sockets isn't going to cause anyone any harm and if it means people are happier to use the railway, then all the better. There's a clear demand for charging facilities as aircraft and buses are also seeing them fitted, and for some people the ability to keep their devices charged throughout a trip is a deal-breaker. Also, if you make it possible for people to distract themselves (more people would play more immersive games and watch more movies on their phones/tablets if they didn't have to worry about the battery being hammered) they'll be less likely to complain about the railway. Much of the bad rep the Voyagers have is just because people are already quite annoyed about having to sit on the floor due to overcrowding, so they then care about all the other minor things which are also wrong.

 

[southern442]

So once again, most of these justifications for power outlets are either lapses of memory (human type), inadequate (so called) portable equipment or lack of journey planning. If continuous use of office equipment is so important to the passenger, why should a transport provider be obliged to equip their trains for the few at the (ultimate) expense of passengers who just want to travel?

Remember that it isn't just commuters that use their laptops, as (especially on long distance journeys like the ones that the class 800's will be running) lots of travelers would rather look at their laptop than out the window. (You can't now go and say they should just be told to look out the window) The fact that people forget to charge their laptops isn't something that can be helped either, and the fact is that mains is the more commonly used (and preferred) method of charging. All these are just plain and simple facts.

Public transport should not tell people what their needs are, they should be designed to fit customer's needs. Yes power points aren't a necessity, but passengers use them. There is not a trend approaching where it is now cool to have a battery pack, and VTEC and GWR and the like don't have time to encourage the use of a certain product, that is just silly. People like and use power points on trains regularly, and since this train is rather basic anyway (our high speed train system will now fall further out of league with the rest of Europe), you would think it is the least they can do?

 

[Starmill]

So once again, most of these justifications for power outlets are either lapses of memory (human type), inadequate (so called) portable equipment or lack of journey planning. If continuous use of office equipment is so important to the passenger, why should a transport provider be obliged to equip their trains for the few at the (ultimate) expense of passengers who just want to travel?

Because they would like to improve the experience for their customers. They might also give a thought to promoting travel by rail.

Why do train companies provide anything at all - including seats or toilets in their trains?

 

[RAGNARØKR]

MODERATOR - there are at least three new threads developing: luggage space, wifi and charging points.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If vestibule luggage racks are such an awul idea, why did they come as standard on Mk3 and Mk4 stock?

Ask James Cousins. A lot of unsatisfactory features came about under his regime. Many of these were addressed in subsequent generations of stock or on refurbishment.

Vestibule luggage stacks came about long before that. LMS open stock had them from 1923. Before mark 3 stock came on the scene, large items were meant to be placed with cycles in dedicated and lockable van space under the supervision of the guard; both were meant to be labelled with the destination clearly marked. The luggage racks in compartments were for small items. It did not always work that way, of course.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What better location would you propose for the luggage stacks?

The space between seat backs is a red herring. There can not be enough such spaces for every passenger to put their luggage, these spaces can only be a supplement, not an alternative, to luggage stacks.

It is surely better to have them than not to have them? Not every passenger has luggage. Even at busy times I have always found luggage space available between seat backs when I have needed it, in stock where there is a reasonable proportion of facing-bay seating such as mark 2 or the Danish IC3 (all in facing bays prior to the current refurb) and Swedish X31 stock (50% in facing bays).

The best place for large items of luggage and cycles would be in a dedicated section of the vehicle used by the train conductor. Then all the space in the rest of the train can be used for passenger seating.

 

[najaB]

...why should a transport provider be obliged to equip their trains for the few at the (ultimate) expense of passengers who just want to travel?

As Starmill said, if it's just about getting from Point A to Point B why even provide seats? Adding power sockets in new stock will be a tiny addition to the build cost and will benefit a large number of customers so there's simply no good reason not to do it. Speaking of 'the few' you are one of the few who actually has a portable power pack.

 

[jon0844]

MODERATOR - there are at least three new threads developing: luggage space, wifi and charging points.

As long as all three things relate to the 800s then what's the problem?

This is a general thread for the Class 800 trains. Anything to do with them, whether inside or out, surely goes here?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It is surely better to have them than not to have them? Not every passenger has luggage. Even at busy times I have always found luggage space available between seat backs when I have needed it, in stock where there is a reasonable proportion of facing-bay seating such as mark 2 or the Danish IC3 (all in facing bays prior to the current refurb) and Swedish X31 stock (50% in facing bays).

The best place for large items of luggage and cycles would be in a dedicated section of the vehicle used by the train conductor. Then all the space in the rest of the train can be used for passenger seating.

You're wanting to give up seating space to provide luggage space, whether it's in a guard's van, or between seats which mandates the use of back to back seating and bays of four.

That simply isn't happening and hasn't happened for a couple of decades now - the only reason the guard's van has persisted is the archaic legislation surrounding passenger seating in 125mph leading vehicles.

What is needed is a clear message from IEP operators about suit case sizes, tell passengers what size bag will fit in the overhead rack, what size bag will fit in the luggage stack, and what happens if they bring a walk-on wardrobe with them.

I've been on more than my fair share of trains with baggage everywhere - in the aisles, on seats and tables, jammed into toilets, disabled areas and bits of the buffet, but I can hand on heart say I've never seen one of these trains with every luggage rack and storage space actually fully utilised, quite often luggage racks are empty because people can't get their suitcases into them, a particular issue with Voyager and Pendolino fleets, who have an interior that could only have been designed by the Pinball Wizard.

If people start to carry the correct size of bag or suitcase for the train, there's genuinely not an issue with the amount of luggage space on board most trains in use today, and certainly not with IEP, which is exceptionally generously provisioned in comparison to some trains in operation.

 

[Haydn1971]

As Starmill said, if it's just about getting from Point A to Point B why even provide seats?

Because people "need" to sit to reduce physical body fatigue, just like they need warmth, protection from 125mph air blast and on journeys of any significant length, need some means of sustenance and waste disposal. In contrast, people don't need to be entertained or work or charge devices, they just "want" to.

Adding power sockets in new stock will be a tiny addition to the build cost and will benefit a large number of customers so there's simply no good reason not to do it. Speaking of 'the few' you are one of the few who actually has a portable power pack.

That small addition for each seat adds up to a significant additional fuel cost over a 27 year life span of an entire fleet of trains running more than 3/4 of each and every day. However ! The next generation of rail travel is looking increasing likely to have integrated entertainment systems at their heart, hopefully using proven service providers such as Netflix, Spotify, Amazon, Google etc... To allow seamless integration with users external accounts rather than a rubbish, dated and hindered TOC specific and crashy application.

 

[najaB]

Because people "need" to sit to reduce physical body fatigue, just like they need warmth, protection from 125mph air blast and on journeys of any significant length, need some means of sustenance and waste disposal. In contrast, people don't need to be entertained or work or charge devices, they just "want" to.

Okay. Hard wooden benches will be provided.

That small addition for each seat adds up to a significant additional fuel cost over a 27 year life span of an entire fleet of trains running more than 3/4 of each and every day.

Let's be generous and say that the wiring and sockets add 500kg to a 35,000kg vehicle. That's an additional 1% mass which is hardly going to break the fuel budget!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Because people "need" to sit to reduce physical body fatigue, just like they need warmth, protection from 125mph air blast and on journeys of any significant length, need some means of sustenance and waste disposal. In contrast, people don't need to be entertained or work or charge devices, they just "want" to.




That small addition for each seat adds up to a significant additional fuel cost over a 27 year life span of an entire fleet of trains running more than 3/4 of each and every day. However ! The next generation of rail travel is looking increasing likely to have integrated entertainment systems at their heart, hopefully using proven service providers such as Netflix, Spotify, Amazon, Google etc... To allow seamless integration with users external accounts rather than a rubbish, dated and hindered TOC specific and crashy application.

If we're going to continue down this ridiculous suggestion of requiring passengers to carry portable battery recharging solutions with them, can I then remove the buffet and catering trolley from vehicles on the basis they should also be bringing their own food, using flasks, etc.

Power sockets are never not going to be used - even for people with battery charging devices, laptops with 12 hour batteries etc, they'll use the power sockets to keep everything charged up, or not bother bringing out their battery charging device, knowing the train they're going to use has a power socket. You talk about a 240V electricity supply like it's going to become some sort of white elephant, it's never going to be that.

How much fuel do you expect providing power sockets at each seat will use over the life expectancy of each vehicle ?

 

[Haydn1971]

You talk about a 240V electricity supply like it's going to become some sort of white elephant, it's never going to be that.

Me ? Not at all... I'm just saying that 240v isn't a necessity, just an extra - I rarely feel the need to recharge or power my laptop on a commute, but do on longer distance work related rail trips, ideally at a table rather than in an airline seat... It's a preference I'd guess.

How much fuel do you expect providing power sockets at each seat will use over the life expectancy of each vehicle ?

Well it's not free is it ! I'm sure someone can do the calculations, but given my annual electric bill in the house runs to about £500-600, I'd expect the cost to run to several £1000's per year on each train with high draw laptops and tablet chargers, over a fleet and 30 years that's several million - small change over the entire IEP but these things add up.

 

[Dent]

Well it's not free is it ! I'm sure someone can do the calculations, but given my annual electric bill in the house runs to about £500-600, I'd expect the cost to run to several £1000's per year on each train with high draw laptops and tablet chargers, over a fleet and 30 years that's several million - small change over the entire IEP but these things add up.

How many passenger journeys will be made on the stock over the same period, and what is the cost of providing the facility divided by that number? That is the figure that actually matters, the amount providing the facility will add to the cost of each ticket.