GWR Class 800

[jimm]

Would you rather have 30 people standing than have 3 coaches empty?

What are you on about? There's a sight more than three coaches empty on any HST that ventures west of Oxford off-peak right now. Probably more like seven once you're beyond Malvern.

Would you rather run a train with 600 seats, with 60 people on board? Oh silly me, of course you would:roll:

 

[455driver]

What are you on about? There's a sight more than three coaches empty on any HST that ventures west of Oxford off-peak right now. Probably more like seven once you're beyond Malvern.

Would you rather run a train with 600 seats, with 60 people on board? Oh silly me, of course you would:roll:

So what is your proposal for the example you quoted, use 2x5 coach units and detach one at Oxford (and do what with it), or use 1x5 coach set knowing it will be standing room only from Paddington to Oxford?

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Sorry if slightly off topic, there are quite a number of people that seem reluctant to leave their luggage where they cannot view it at all times. Does anyone have any statistics with respect to stolen luggage?

I always use the racks at the end of coaches and have never had any problems, perhaps my luggage is not posh enough.

 

[jimm]

So what is your proposal for the example you quoted, use 2x5 coach units and detach one at Oxford (and do what with it), or use 1x5 coach set knowing it will be standing room only from Paddington to Oxford?

Standing room only off-peak between Oxford and Paddington? Come off it. The 180s can get a bit cosy on the odd train but as general rule of thumb a 315-seat 800 will do perfectly well off-peak.

Never mind that with electrification there are going to be extra Oxford-London fasts all day, presumably using eight-car 387 formations, on top of a regular interval hourly Cotswold Line service. Plus, of course, lots more seats on another rail route to London. And umpteen M40 coaches per hour. How many people are you expecting to travel between Oxford and London outside the peak?

 

[swt_passenger]

So what is your proposal for the example you quoted, use 2x5 coach units and detach one at Oxford (and do what with it)...

I suppose they could always stick it on the front of a 5 car coming the other way. Or is that something that can be done easily at Bournemouth, but would be impossible at Oxford?

 

[jimm]

I suppose they could always stick it on the front of a 5 car coming the other way. Or is that something that can be done easily at Bournemouth, but would be impossible at Oxford?

Of course it's possible but, as I say, extremely unlikely to be necessary in the off-peak period given the sheer number of seats that will be available between Oxford and London from 2017 anyway.

In the peak periods the Cotswold Line 800s will be 2x5 formations towards London in the mornings and back in the evenings

 

[The Ham]

Of course it's possible but, as I say, extremely unlikely to be necessary in the off-peak period given the sheer number of seats that will be available between Oxford and London from 2017 anyway.

In the peak periods the Cotswold Line 800s will be 2x5 formations towards London in the mornings and back in the evenings

Quite, it's probably what the DfT had in mind when it specified the half length sets.

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course it's possible but, as I say, extremely unlikely to be necessary in the off-peak period given the sheer number of seats that will be available between Oxford and London from 2017 anyway.

Sure, I was really just pointing out the one particular aspect of 455driver's comment, where he asks what could be done with the second unit...

 

[Dave1987]

Of course it's possible but, as I say, extremely unlikely to be necessary in the off-peak period given the sheer number of seats that will be available between Oxford and London from 2017 anyway.

In the peak periods the Cotswold Line 800s will be 2x5 formations towards London in the mornings and back in the evenings

Having seen the loadings at Paddington and sudden rush to the train once the platform is announced so people can get a seat I believe running 5 cars around in the off peak will result in exactly the same issue you have with Voyagers at the moment. Heaven forbid there might be a couple of spare carriages, no much better that some people have to stand.

 

[asylumxl]

Having seen the loadings at Paddington and sudden rush to the train once the platform is announced so people can get a seat I believe running 5 cars around in the off peak will result in exactly the same issue you have with Voyagers at the moment. Heaven forbid there might be a couple of spare carriages, no much better that some people have to stand.

I believe Jimm mentioned the extra services using the 387s. Unless I am mistaken, they currently do not run and thus the situation isn't comparable.

 

[jopsuk]

A reminder that the timetable out of Paddington once Crossrail, electrification (with class 387 & 365) and full Class 800/801/AT300 deployment will look almost nothing like the current timetable.

 

[LexyBoy]

A reminder too that many off-peak Oxford/Worcester services are currently 3-coach.

 

[jimm]

A reminder too that many off-peak Oxford/Worcester services are currently 3-coach.

Do you mean at weekends? The 180s aren't allowed out at weekends, otherwise you'd almost never see a Turbo.

On weekdays there is a grand total of one westbound off-peak Turbo duty to Worcester, the 08.21 Paddington-Hereford (a six-car Turbo formation), and two back, achieved by splitting the pair at Worcester, with one returning at 11.22 and the other forming the 12.09 from Hereford. Even if you throw in the 09.50 Turbo from Moreton-in-Marsh to London, that number of trains hardly merits the description of 'too many', does it?

 

[JamesRowden]

A reminder that the timetable out of Paddington once Crossrail, electrification (with class 387 & 365) and full Class 800/801/AT300 deployment will look almost nothing like the current timetable.

From my understanding the services off-peak out of Paddington will be fairly similar. After seeing official documents linked from or attached to this forum (and other documents/websites), it seems although the comparison between the old and new off-peak services will be:

Key
Present service to no longer run
New service

• 2tph Paddington to Greenford
  • Replaced by 2tph Crossrail service to West Drayton
• 2tph Heathrow Connect
  • Replaced by 4tph Crossrail service to Heathrow
• NEW 2tph Crossrail service to Maidenhead
• 2tph Paddington-Reading Stopper
  • Replaced by 2tph Crossrail service to Reading
• 4tph Heathrow Express (Unchanged)
• 2tph Paddington to Oxford Stopper (Unchanged)
• 1tph Paddington to Oxford Fast (Unchanged)
• 1tph Paddington to Cotwalds (Unchanged)
• 1tp2h Paddington to Cheltenham Spa Increased to 1tph
• 1tph Paddington to Cardiff (won't stop at Reading)
• 1tph Paddington to Swansea (Unchanged)
• NEW 2tph Paddington to Bristol non-stop to Bristol Parkway with 1tph extended to Weston-Super-Mare
• 2tph Paddington to Bristol via Bath (No change except for no extensions west of Bristol)
• 1tph Paddington to Bedwyn
  • Replaced by 1tph Paddington to Newbury and 1tph Paddington to Berks and Hants Semi-Fast (it seems that some/all of these services will run through to Devon/Cornwall)
• 1tph Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance (Unchanged except for all being non-stop between Reading and Taunton)

 

[CdBrux]

Sorry if slightly off topic, there are quite a number of people that seem reluctant to leave their luggage where they cannot view it at all times. Does anyone have any statistics with respect to stolen luggage?

I always use the racks at the end of coaches and have never had any problems, perhaps my luggage is not posh enough.

I used that once between Worcester and Paddington. Case stolen. Police eventually contacted me to say none of CCTV cameras were working. Now I alwya keep bags where I can see them on any train.

 

[southern442]

From my understanding the services off-peak out of Paddington will be fairly similar. After seeing official documents linked from or attached to this forum (and other documents/websites), it seems although the comparison between the old and new off-peak services will be:

Key
Present service to no longer run
New service

• 2tph Paddington to Greenford
  • Replaced by 2tph Crossrail service to West Drayton

What will happen to the Greenford services? Will they start from Ealing now?

 

[coppercapped]

So what is your proposal for the example you quoted, use 2x5 coach units and detach one at Oxford (and do what with it), or use 1x5 coach set knowing it will be standing room only from Paddington to Oxford?

In days of yore, trains from Paddington to Cornwall dropped the restaurant car portion at Plymouth and the front three or four coaches carried on. The restaurant car portion was then added to an appropriate eastbound train from Cornwall at North Road and made its way back to Paddington.

This matched supply and demand pretty well.

The Worcester and Hereford service was operated similarly in the last days of the Castles and the early diesel days with Hymeks. Leaving Paddington the trains were 7 coaches long and dropped a 4 coach restaurant/buffet section at Worcester; the front three coaches went on to Hereford. The restaurant car section was then added to the three coaches coming from Hereford which had worked down on the previous train and seven coaches made their way back to Paddington. If I recall correctly there was one more 3 coach section than 4 coach restaurant/buffet sections.

This also matched supply and demand pretty well.

You ask, in the case of the SETs dropping one set at Oxford, what would it do? I would suggest that it would be connected to next available up train from Worcester.

I ask myself, why is this concept of splitting and joining trains so difficult to understand? BR could manage it.

 

[ainsworth74]

I ask myself, why is this concept of splitting and joining trains so difficult to understand? BR could manage it.

Not just BR, the modern railway does it all over the place all day everyday. Yet seemingly the idea of doing it at places like Oxford is unacceptable...

 

[455driver]

I ask myself, why is this concept of splitting and joining trains so difficult to understand? BR could manage it.

Because the people in charge haven't got a clue, when I worked for SWT we used to attach/detach the Alton/Basingstoke at Woking or the Portsmouth/Bournemouth at Eastleigh in about 3 minutes, it is easily done as long as you know what you are doing.

Now I work for FGW oops I mean gWr and we also attach/detach in 3 minutes, but propose the idea anywhere else and 'they' have a meltdown. :roll:

 

[Hophead]

What will happen to the Greenford services? Will they start from Ealing now?

Crossrail is providing a new bay at West Ealing. Next Spring, it is intended to bring this into use and provide a Class 387-operated 4-car EMU between Paddington & Hayes as a replacement (as long as there are no Network Rail infrastructure delays).

 

[jopsuk]

Not just BR, the modern railway does it all over the place all day everyday. Yet seemingly the idea of doing it at places like Oxford is unacceptable...

It's done at Cambridgeon the Kings Lynn services.

Maybe that's it. Maybe it's doing what Cambridge does.

 

[fgwrich]

Crossrail is providing a new bay at West Ealing. Next Spring, it is intended to bring this into use and provide a Class 387-operated 4-car EMU between Paddington & Hayes as a replacement (as long as there are no Network Rail infrastructure delays).

Will this be GW operated or CrossRail operated/branded as per the CrossRail services on the Great Eastern?

 

[AM9]

Will this be GW operated or CrossRail operated/branded as per the CrossRail services on the Great Eastern?

As it will be a GWR branded 387, (the doors are already the right colour) which will eventually run on the Didcot services. I doubt that we'll se anything with Crossrail running until the 345s arrive.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I'd not forgotten about that rule, which is why I compared the number of trains running in pairs and only mentioned the benefits ofhalf length trains with regards to being able to make better use of the trains with regards to spare sets and/or undergoing maintenance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You can't have it both ways, either my comparison of the 444's is reasonable (average of 74 seats per standard coach, which allows for things like the micro buffet, but has airline seating).

OR

The Mark 3's have the large amount of space you've been talking about and have the back to back seats you want, but then have less seats.

Either way my calculations show that Mark 3's can only just compare with 80x's by making compromises (such as full length end coaches which reduces capacity and only having micro buffets rather than the full kitchens which the draft layouts show for the class 80x's)

Unless you can come up with a comparable train configuration which shows that the 80x's (draft layouts, unless you have more information) can be beaten by Mark 3's, then my figures stand.

The tightest mark 3 seating configuration is in the FGW refurbishment. I don't know off hand how many seats are in those vehicles and am too far away to go and check. They are too damned close together anyway, but you can work on those figures if you want to do the comparison.

But the easier way to do the comparison would be to work to furnishable length. Over the course of the life of the vehicles the seating is likely to be reconfigured anyway.

Continental 26m stock eg Corail appear to have 10 (first class) or 11 bays (standard class). It was not considered necessary to have large amounts of space at the ends. Using it for cycles and luggage is just an attempt to make the best of a bad job.

If those specifying the length of the vehicles had realised the potential problems, do you really think they would have made the same decision?

 

[jimm]

The tightest mark 3 seating configuration is in the FGW refurbishment. I don't know off hand how many seats are in those vehicles and am too far away to go and check. They are too damned close together anyway, but you can work on those figures if you want to do the comparison.

But the easier way to do the comparison would be to work to furnishable length. Over the course of the life of the vehicles the seating is likely to be reconfigured anyway.

Continental 26m stock eg Corail appear to have 10 (first class) or 11 bays (standard class). It was not considered necessary to have large amounts of space at the ends. Using it for cycles and luggage is just an attempt to make the best of a bad job.

If those specifying the length of the vehicles had realised the potential problems, do you really think they would have made the same decision?

The FGW seats are too close together? Hardly. There is plenty of legroom unless you're a giant. The problem with that refurbishment is the height of the seat backs.

Sorry but you can't compare IEP coaches with continental stock, built to continental gauges, so not needing the slightly tucked-in coach end to fit in the UK loading gauge.

And you didn't make a wise choice of coach type for comparison. Where do you think the toilets on many Corail coaches are? At the coach ends, with the entrance doors inset. Remind you of anything, I don't know, perhaps the location of IEP toilets and entrance doors...?

Where else do you propose bikes should go? An IEP-arrangement for them is rather better use of available space than taking out seating space in the middle of a coach, as done on Class 166s.

There will also be luggage stacks inside the saloons in the same sort of locations as on Mk3s, Mk4s and Class 180s.

And if you've ever been on a Eurostar or TGV, you ought to be well aware that there are plenty of luggage spaces in the entrance vestibules, out of sight of seated passengers. Some TGVs also have them opposite toilets at the coach ends without doors. How could they do that? Ruining another of your theories about the unique horrors of the IEP...

 

[capital12]

As it will be a GWR branded 387, (the doors are already the right colour) which will eventually run on the Didcot services. I doubt that we'll se anything with Crossrail running until the 345s arrive.

The doors on GWR are silver/grey not green...

 

[Kentish Paul]

In days of yore, trains from Paddington to Cornwall dropped the restaurant car portion at Plymouth and the front three or four coaches carried on. The restaurant car portion was then added to an appropriate eastbound train from Cornwall at North Road and made its way back to Paddington.

Actually the minimum number of coaches through Cornwall was 5. This was the Golden Hind (05:15 off Penzance for a few years). Made up to 8 at Plymouth.
Had many a lovely breakfast traversing the sea wall at Dawlish when heading to London. Many other trains were 7 or 8 through Cornwall made up to 10 or 11 after the addition of catering facilities at Plymouth.

P.S. Lived in Penzance until 1988 so remember the services well.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will this be GW operated or CrossRail operated/branded as per the CrossRail services on the Great Eastern?

The transfer of services from TOC to Crossrail is being done in a significantly different manner on the western end, because Crossrail only really takes on a relatively small proportion of the existing services, and almost half of them are from Heathrow Connect.

There's a set of line diagrams at the back of this TfL summary:

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rup-20150212-part-1-item-09-crossrail.pdf

...showing the dates various sections of the route transfer to the Crossrail operator, it can be seen that Hayes to Maidenhead is the very last section in 2020.

but I suggest that if Crossrail were having anything to do with this new EMU service to Hayes and Harlington then FGW wouldn't have mentioned it as one of theirs.

Small correction, the future "Shenfield leg" is currently operated as TfL Rail, not Crossrail as described in the linked document.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have noticed that, in all these comparisons of IEP seating/accomodation with other coaches, the Class 390 Pendolino is seldom (if ever ) mentioned !. To me that says something about some of the newer intercity trains currently in service !.

I will wait to see what the ambience of a class 80x coach will be like. As for capacity I can see that a pair of power cars (HST) use up more space than the driving ends of a single IEP/SET unit. But as many services seem to be running round as pairs of units we will have the best part of two coach lengths not occupied. The advantage is portion working of course.

Still waiting to see how much the underfloor engines will affect the ambience. I wonder how much more noisy they will be after a few years service.

 

[southern442]

Crossrail is providing a new bay at West Ealing. Next Spring, it is intended to bring this into use and provide a Class 387-operated 4-car EMU between Paddington & Hayes as a replacement (as long as there are no Network Rail infrastructure delays).

I see. It seems like an odd thing to do but I doubt it will be hurting anybody.