GWR Class 800

[Class 170101]

The Paddington to Oxford fasts will be operated using 387s of up to 12-car.

Aren't some Class 365s also meant to be joining the party?

 

[fgwrich]

Yes. But I gather that the plan for the 365s - all to be the odd numbered units - will be on the LTV slows, with the 387s on the fasts. So a like for like replacement of the Turbos with the Networkers for the LTV Slows.

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't some Class 365s also meant to be joining the party?

Yes, they are joining the GW, but the 'fast Oxfords' in question will at some stage run at 110 mph, so will have to be be the remit of 387s.

 

[jimm]

And this is exactly how you get overcrowded services with people standing with the general attitude that 5 cars are fine for the off peak as if hardly anyone travels except during the peaks. This is evident in many services around the country, which is why I'm sure the powers that be would rather see people standing than have spare seats.

There you go again....

You still haven't answered my question about what length of train, in your opinion, constitutes a 'proper' express train - six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 coaches or more? Take your pick... it can't be that hard.

And, if I assume the number is nine or 10, where are all the off-peak and contra-peak jobs on the GW system that would justify 600-plus seats on all routes in both directions all day?

 

[Dave1987]

There you go again....

You still haven't answered my question about what length of train, in your opinion, constitutes a 'proper' express train - six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 coaches or more? Take your pick... it can't be that hard.

And, if I assume the number is nine or 10, where are all the off-peak and contra-peak jobs on the GW system that would justify 600-plus seats on all routes in both directions all day?

It's called being able to provide enough seats so passengers aren't standing. Not the attitude of we might have a few spare seats if we ran a full length train so will only run 5 cars and accept that some people will have to stand. Yes there are some services that will be fine with a 5 car but if you have a blanket attitude of all off peak services will be fine with a 5 car then you will have overcrowding and people standing. That seems to be perfectly acceptable in you eyes though.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It's called being able to provide enough seats so passengers aren't standing. Not the attitude of we might have a few spare seats if we ran a full length train so will only run 5 cars and accept that some people will have to stand. Yes there are some services that will be fine with a 5 car but if you have a blanket attitude of all off peak services will be fine with a 5 car then you will have overcrowding and people standing. That seems to be perfectly acceptable in you eyes though.

How many services throughout the day are going to need more than 5 cars but would be unreasonable with 10 cars?

 

[Haydn1971]

It's called being able to provide enough seats so passengers aren't standing. Not the attitude of we might have a few spare seats if we ran a full length train so will only run 5 cars and accept that some people will have to stand. Yes there are some services that will be fine with a 5 car but if you have a blanket attitude of all off peak services will be fine with a 5 car then you will have overcrowding and people standing. That seems to be perfectly acceptable in you eyes though.

It's much more complex than that, you don't need 9/10 car units all the way to Penzance except at holiday peaks - the 5 car units make it possible to run from Penzance as a 5 car unit through to Plymouth or Taunton, then hook up with a second unit, giving a proportionate level of service as 5+5 into London, similarly with Bristol and Cardiff, splitting units at Bristol or Cardiff so one continues further up the line, the other gets hooked up with another 5 car unit and trundles back to London. It's reducing wear on stock and track, it's making best use of costly stock assets such that a 9/10 carriage unit doesn't pull into Penzance, Swansea, Malvern etc as a 60-70% train of empty seats.

The 4/5 car farce that is XC is because there isn't enough units to service the routes, EMT do a lot better with their fleet in that I'm struggling to remember seeing people standing on a EMT in/out of London, yet I see it almost every trip on XC

 

[jimm]

It's called being able to provide enough seats so passengers aren't standing. Not the attitude of we might have a few spare seats if we ran a full length train so will only run 5 cars and accept that some people will have to stand. Yes there are some services that will be fine with a 5 car but if you have a blanket attitude of all off peak services will be fine with a 5 car then you will have overcrowding and people standing. That seems to be perfectly acceptable in you eyes though.

I can just see someone from the DfT trying to explain an order for new trains to the Treasury on the basis you outline above, or a leasing company trying to obtain finance from a bank. And there are plenty of contra-peak flow trains that will also be just fine with five coaches, like the 180s heading west from London to Oxford and the Cotswolds on weekday mornings right now.

Could you tell me where I have said that all off-peak services will run with five cars?

They won't, because 28 of the GW fleet of 800s/AT300s will be unsplittable nine-car sets anyway - so the equivalent of more than half of the current FGW HST fleet - and a fair number of the 2x5-car formations will remain coupled up all day, as you presumably know full well.

Whereas, in places like the Cotswold Line or to Cheltenham and Swansea, where you need big trains in the direction of the main morning and evening peak flows but not the rest of the time, they won't, because there is no need to lug 600-plus seats around all day, when you can split and join 2x5 formations at Oxford, Swindon or Cardiff if extra seats are needed the closer you get to London. But don't let the facts get in the way...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I can just see someone from the DfT trying to explain an order for new trains to the Treasury on the basis you outline above, or a leasing company trying to obtain finance from a bank.

Could you tell me where I have said that all off-peak services will run with five cars?

They won't, because 28 of the GW fleet of 800s/AT300s will be unsplittable nine-car sets anyway and a fair number of the 2x5-car formations will remain coupled up all day, as you presumably know full well.

Whereas, in places like the Cotswold Line or to Cheltenham, where you need big trains in the direction of the main morning and evening peak flows but not the rest of the time, they won't, because there is no need to lug 600-plus seats around all day, when you can split and join 2x5 formations at Oxford or Swindon if extra seats are needed the closer you get to London. But don't let the facts get in the way...

There's another issue which seems to be escaping attention. I know some people don't get portion working and the post privatisation railway thinks a shunt is another name for a car accident, but do people genuinely think we can't change the configuration of these trains as passenger demand changes in future ?

Hitachi will build more vehicles to extend these sets from 5 car upto 9 car, if they're asked. It's quite clearly defined in the Train Technical Specification that the maximum length of the IEP sets is 312 metres (12 x 26m cars) with the ability to add or remove vehicles within 8 hours to create sets of any length between 130m and 312m (5 to 12 cars).

If the demand is there, and there's every chance it will come, and subject to being able to provide platform extensions where needed, I think there's a very high probability of the sets being extended when needed.

The AT300 design with 26m bodyshell is basically a new design, one which is going to be in production, based on current orders, through to 2020 and if additional orders are placed for the East Midlands franchise, the CrossCountry franchise and/or the TransPennine franchise, that will extend things out further, perhaps through to 2022 to 2023. Passenger demand forecasting would suggest we might well see the first round of additional cars being ordered around that point.

The days of train manufacturers building one batch of trains then moving onto something else has long gone. They're sensitive to the requirements of the modern railway, which increasingly likes fixed formation or semi permanently coupled sets, and will now keep jigs, save CAD/CAM files and detailed drawings to allow the future production of additional coaches or entire sets at minimum additional cost.

I still can't quite believe we're looking at a third Alstom Pendolino order with delivery in 2017-18 either, but there we are. I don't think anybody at Alstom would have thought that might be the case in 1997 when the initial Virgin Trains order was placed.

 

[class26]

T



I still can't quite believe we're looking at a third Alstom Pendolino order with delivery in 2017-18 either, but there we are. I don't think anybody at Alstom would have thought that might be the case in 1997 when the initial Virgin Trains order was placed.

Must have missed this one but what is the third Pendolino order please ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Must have missed this one but what is the third Pendolino order please ?

Alliance/GNWR open access Blackpool to Euston 6 trains per day (to be operated as Grand Central).

Recently approved by ORR, there have been lengthy discussions about it terminating at Queens Park here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=119167

 

[D365]

Alliance/GNWR open access Blackpool to Euston 6 trains per day (to be operated as Grand Central).

Recently approved by ORR, there have been lengthy discussions about it terminating at Queens Park here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=119167

Isn't this small order supposed to be for a new version? Compared to the original design for Virgin that dates back to 1997.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Must have missed this one but what is the third Pendolino order please ?

Arriva/Grand Central's order for the London to Blackpool open access operation - I think it's 4 x 6 car sets with an option for another 4 x 6 car sets if they can agree on paths for London to Huddersfield with NR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't this small order supposed to be for a new version? Compared to the original design for Virgin that dates back to 1997.

Sort of, if it's the same train specification that was prepared for Virgin Trains and the aborted ICWC refranchising.

The main change then (doing this from memory) was a redesigned cab and Voyager style permanently fixed coupler with deletion of the bothersome hatch, and the usual raft of in-service modifications rolled out as standard specification on the new build.

 

[class26]

Arriva/Grand Central's order for the London to Blackpool open access operation - I think it's 4 x 6 car sets with an option for another 4 x 6 car sets if they can agree on paths for London to Huddersfield with NR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sort of, if it's the same train specification that was prepared for Virgin Trains and the aborted ICWC refranchising.

The main change then (doing this from memory) was a redesigned cab and Voyager style permanently fixed coupler with deletion of the bothersome hatch, and the usual raft of in-service modifications rolled out as standard specification on the new build.

Thanks, for a moment i was hoping it might have been some extra trains for Brum (and / or Manchester) to Scotland

 

[D365]

Thanks, for a moment i was hoping it might have been some extra trains for Brum (and / or Manchester) to Scotland

Don't rule anything out - if Alstom is prepared to build a small batch of Pendolino-type trains for GNWR, there must be a good chance of seeing more of the new trains in the 2018 WCML franchise award.

 

[class26]

Don't rule anything out - if Alstom is prepared to build a small batch of Pendolino-type trains for GNWR, there must be a good chance of seeing more of the new trains in the 2018 WCML franchise award.

Will just need funding then !

 

[Mikey C]

It's much more complex than that, you don't need 9/10 car units all the way to Penzance except at holiday peaks - the 5 car units make it possible to run from Penzance as a 5 car unit through to Plymouth or Taunton, then hook up with a second unit, giving a proportionate level of service as 5+5 into London, similarly with Bristol and Cardiff, splitting units at Bristol or Cardiff so one continues further up the line, the other gets hooked up with another 5 car unit and trundles back to London. It's reducing wear on stock and track, it's making best use of costly stock assets such that a 9/10 carriage unit doesn't pull into Penzance, Swansea, Malvern etc as a 60-70% train of empty seats.

The 4/5 car farce that is XC is because there isn't enough units to service the routes, EMT do a lot better with their fleet in that I'm struggling to remember seeing people standing on a EMT in/out of London, yet I see it almost every trip on XC

Effectively operating them like long distance EMUs such as the 444s, where one unit will terminate short with the other going on to Weymouth

 

[ainsworth74]

Whilst the new Pendolinos were an interesting sidetrack might I suggest we go back to focusing on Class 800s

 

[Bletchleyite]

Effectively operating them like long distance EMUs such as the 444s, where one unit will terminate short with the other going on to Weymouth

Or even splitting/joining to different destinations - the original XC concept of maximising direct services.

 

[The Ham]

I remember a lot of people were also saying 4 and 5 coach Voyagers would be enough because there would be double the trains. That worked out OK as well didn't it

You forget that the AT300 order for the GWR services has an option for 30 more:

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at300-for-the-west-of-england_156.html

The fleet of 29 bi-mode AT300 trains would run primarily from London Paddington to Plymouth and Penzance, replacing 40-year-old High Speed Trains on the key intercity route to the south west. Made up of seven nine-car and 22 five-car trains, with an option for 30 more, the mixed fleet would allow for flexible use, including 10-car formations (two five-cars coupled together) for through-services to/from the capital.

Now we can debate what is meant by 30 more at another time; however even if it is only 30 more coaches that is enough to lengthen 7 of the 5 coach sets to 9 coach sets. That is more than the voyagers ever had an option for.

Also a 4 coach voyager (which makes up most of the fleet) has 200 seats whilst a 5 coach voyager has 250 seats compared with the new trains which will have about 315 (57.5% and 26% more).

Also a HST has about 530 seats, which means that a new 5 coach train has about 60% of the capacity of it. Which means that on services where you don't currently have to site next to someone in the future you may have to IF they are all run with short sets.

With regards to peak hour flows in and out of London about 50% (with the range for each station being between 40 and 75%) of all the daily arrivals into London in the morning peak three hours with the opposite being true for the departures in the evening. As such it is fairly reasonable for there to be more sets arriving into London than there would be departing in the morning peaks with the trend reversed in the evening to cater for the chage in passenger flows.

Within other cities the spread isn't quite so big, but it is still between 20% and 40% of the daily flows (data taken from this spreadsheet).

 

[Domh245]

Wasn't it rumoured that some of those options were going to be taken up by Hull Trains?

 

[Noddy]

Whilst the new Pendolinos were an interesting sidetrack might I suggest we go back to focusing on Class 800s

OK!

How many 800s are in the UK? And at what state are the production units at?

 

[Domh245]

My understanding is that there are 2x 800s in the UK undergoing testing on the ECML and at Old Dalby. Nothing has happened at Newton Aycliffe in terms of production, but there may be some bodyshells made at Kasado (or wherever else it the bodyshells are produced)

 

[IanXC]

Wasn't it rumoured that some of those options were going to be taken up by Hull Trains?

It's been suggested, and HT's latest track access application strongly suggests it - but nothing concrete.

 

[sprinterguy]

Three pre-production sets are planned to be produced in Japan and shipped over, followed by the first ten production sets, after which production will switch to Newton Aycliffe.

AFAIK, we currently have one 9-car (initially a 5-car set but with four intermediate vehicles delivered subsequently) and one 5-car set in operation in the UK.

 

[jimm]

You forget that the AT300 order for the GWR services has an option for 30 more:

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at300-for-the-west-of-england_156.html


Now we can debate what is meant by 30 more at another time; however even if it is only 30 more coaches that is enough to lengthen 7 of the 5 coach sets to 9 coach sets. That is more than the voyagers ever had an option for.

Also a 4 coach voyager (which makes up most of the fleet) has 200 seats whilst a 5 coach voyager has 250 seats compared with the new trains which will have about 315 (57.5% and 26% more).

Also a HST has about 530 seats, which means that a new 5 coach train has about 60% of the capacity of it. Which means that on services where you don't currently have to site next to someone in the future you may have to IF they are all run with short sets.

With regards to peak hour flows in and out of London about 50% (with the range for each station being between 40 and 75%) of all the daily arrivals into London in the morning peak three hours with the opposite being true for the departures in the evening. As such it is fairly reasonable for there to be more sets arriving into London than there would be departing in the morning peaks with the trend reversed in the evening to cater for the chage in passenger flows.

Within other cities the spread isn't quite so big, but it is still between 20% and 40% of the daily flows (data taken from this spreadsheet).

It has been established at some point that the option is for 30 more trains - though of unspecified length - and it's pretty clear, such as maintenance at Doncaster being mentioned, that five of these would go to Hull Trains under their proposal to use bi-modes. Several more would be needed if First Group's proposal for open access trains between London and Edinburgh were to be approved but would still appear to leave a fair number in hand, perhaps as a card to play in the bidding for the next GW franchise.

 

[The Ham]

It has been established at some point that the option is for 30 more trains - though of unspecified length - and it's pretty clear, such as maintenance at Doncaster being mentioned, that five of these would go to Hull Trains under their proposal to use bi-modes. Several more would be needed if First Group's proposal for open access trains between London and Edinburgh were to be approved but would still appear to leave a fair number in hand, perhaps as a card to play in the bidding for the next GW franchise.

As it is 30 more trains (less the 5 for hull trains), rather than the worst case assumption I had made i my point about there being a follow on order (which the Voyagers never had), makes the likelihood of lots of full trains running around even less likely than some posters have feared.

 

[jimm]

As it is 30 more trains (less the 5 for hull trains), rather than the worst case assumption I had made i my point about there being a follow on order (which the Voyagers never had), makes the likelihood of lots of full trains running around even less likely than some posters have feared.

Quite. And some posters seem unable to contemplate that there might be different ways of using an express train fleet, e.g. portion working, which was a fact of life on GW services for many years before HSTs arrived, or that the Class 387s will be picking up quite a lot of work nearer to London that has to be performed by HSTs at present because there simply aren't enough Turbos around to provide the required number of 500-plus seat trains in the peaks.

 

[47802]

You forget that the AT300 order for the GWR services has an option for 30 more:

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at300-for-the-west-of-england_156.html


Now we can debate what is meant by 30 more at another time; however even if it is only 30 more coaches that is enough to lengthen 7 of the 5 coach sets to 9 coach sets. That is more than the voyagers ever had an option for.

Also a 4 coach voyager (which makes up most of the fleet) has 200 seats whilst a 5 coach voyager has 250 seats compared with the new trains which will have about 315 (57.5% and 26% more).

Also a HST has about 530 seats, which means that a new 5 coach train has about 60% of the capacity of it. Which means that on services where you don't currently have to site next to someone in the future you may have to IF they are all run with short sets.

With regards to peak hour flows in and out of London about 50% (with the range for each station being between 40 and 75%) of all the daily arrivals into London in the morning peak three hours with the opposite being true for the departures in the evening. As such it is fairly reasonable for there to be more sets arriving into London than there would be departing in the morning peaks with the trend reversed in the evening to cater for the chage in passenger flows.

Within other cities the spread isn't quite so big, but it is still between 20% and 40% of the daily flows (data taken from this spreadsheet).

Indeed and also not forget that up until the recent 1st class downgrade HST's had less seats and particularly less standard seats.

 

[The Ham]

Looking at the number of confirmed orders for AT300 derived trains (including class 800's and 801's) the total number of coaches for
GWML - 542
ECML - 497

Compare this with the number of mark 3 and mark 4 coaches in use currently which are:
GWML - 464
ECML - 419

So even before any future order the number of coaches is more than at present.

However (as many will point out that the end coaches have lower capacity than the middle coaches) even if you remove 1 end coach from each set to offset for the reduced capacity in the end coaches (which I feel is more than made up by the extra capacity due to having more passenger space per coach, but I'm doing this to be robust) the numbers are broadly the same at:
GWML - 456 (or 8 coaches less than at present)
ECML - 442 (or 23 coaches more than at present)

However it should be noted that most (if not all) of those "lost" coaches on the GWML could well be recovered due to shorter journey times.