GWR Class 800

[WatcherZero]

Newton Aycliffe plant will open on September 3rd according to Hitachi, will have the capacity for 35 carriages a month.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Had the 185s been built as 4 car units with only the driving ones powered would they have been able to cope with the routes that they've been used on since built?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Had the 185s been built as 4 car units with only the driving ones powered would they have been able to cope with the routes that they've been used on since built?

They wouldn't get stuck and roll back down the hill, but they wouldn't be able to keep to time compared to what they do currently.

 

[159220]

800101 is now 9 car (I read in Smiths that the 4 additional coaches are the first to have interiors)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ukbuses/20774130401/

 

[hibtastic]

800101 is now 9 car (I read in Smiths that the 4 additional coaches are the first to have interiors)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ukbuses/20774130401/

I think that looks great and I cant wait to see what they are like to travel on.

How long until 9 car units aren't big enough and extra carriages are required similar to lengthening the 390s to 11 car on the WCML?

 

[The Ham]

There are already more IEPs than could ever be needed by ICEC services alone after Phase 2 opens, and the Government is still required to pay Agility Trains for them for 28.5 years. What's going to happen is that some of the East Coast IEPs will have their interiors replaced with high density versions and they'll be used as long-distance commuter trains into King's Cross mainline station. The 26m EMU with end doors will still be useful on the lines relieved by HS2 since it can take a huge number of passengers in reasonable comfort on routes without enough stops for dwell times to be that important.

2018 (start of use of trains on ECML) plus 28 years (as I though the lease is for 27.5 years not 28.5, but 28 years gives a good mid point either way) is 2046, given that HS2 phase 2 is not due to open until 2033, that means that at worst the government will be paying for extra trains for 1/2 their life.

However, although travel to/from London will be quicker on HS2 for a lot of people there will be a lot of places for which it will not be quicker. Also it is worth remembering that there is nothing stopping the trains on the ECML calling at other stations or the TOC starting new routes from towns off the ECML. Such services may not be viable now as to provide them would mean having to cut the more profitable services which run to the North East and Scotland.

Also, it is worth remembering that if passenger numbers grow at the rate which was expected in the HS2 model that in 2033 there will be 145 passengers for every 100 passengers now. However if passenger numbers carry on growing at about 5% each year then there could be about 200 passengers for every 100 passengers now. Compare that with the number of seats available in the class 800's compared with the HST's, which is about 118 for each 100 in the HST's, and it is clear that there could be future demand for all the 800's on the ECML post HS2 phase 2. Especially as the class 800's would still appear to be required to provide services north of the Scottish Lowlands.

Having said that, even if there is not demand for all the class 800's post HS2 phase 2 on the ECML that doesn't mean that all off them will be sat idle, meaning that the government's risk could be limited to a small proportion of the fleet even if no other use could be found for them (i.e. providing extra capacity on the GWML).
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I think that looks great and I cant wait to see what they are like to travel on.

How long until 9 car units aren't big enough and extra carriages are required similar to lengthening the 390s to 11 car on the WCML?

With 18% more seats than an HST and rail passenger growth running at 5% year on year all those extra seats could disappear (i.e the new trains could be just as full as the current ones are now) in about 3 to 4 years.

Even if passenger growth levels off a bit and there is 2% growth the extra capacity could disappear in about 8 to 9 years. However, when has new trains with faster journey times lead to a slowing in passenger growth?

 

[jopsuk]

I think that looks great and I cant wait to see what they are like to travel on.

How long until 9 car units aren't big enough and extra carriages are required similar to lengthening the 390s to 11 car on the WCML?

in 9-car formation they're longer than a GW HST. Clearly the infrastructure though on both routes is being set up for 5+5 formations, so adding one extra carriage should be feasible.

 

[po8crg]

in 9-car formation they're longer than a GW HST. Clearly the infrastructure though on both routes is being set up for 5+5 formations, so adding one extra carriage should be feasible.

It did and does seem odd to me that they weren't built as 10-car formations (and 5+5s) in the first place.

 

[HSTEd]

It did and does seem odd to me that they weren't built as 10-car formations (and 5+5s) in the first place.

Because the DfT doesn't want people to notice that the obsession with penny pinching by 5+5 operation is costing capacity.
It would be all the more obvious if the formations were all the same length, this way the single set is shorter and has a similar number of seats.

 

[The Ham]

Because the DfT doesn't want people to notice that the obsession with penny pinching by 5+5 operation is costing capacity.
It would be all the more obvious if the formations were all the same length, this way the single set is shorter and has a similar number of seats.

That or so that they could have another series of announcements that they have increased capacity when they do lengthen the unit lengths (either from 9 to 10 and/or from 5 to 9 or 10).

 

[jopsuk]

That or so that they could have another series of announcements that they have increased capacity when they do lengthen the unit lengths (either from 9 to 10 and/or from 5 to 9 or 10).

ding ding ding we have a winner!

 

[NotATrainspott]

ding ding ding we have a winner!

Indeed. To be perfectly honest though, is it a bad plan? Concentrate on getting the new trains with their new features on the network sooner and then you only need to buy the extra carriages when passenger numbers rise as a result. The IEP specification stipulates that it should be trivial their operator to reform rakes and add more carriages in future.

 

[HSTEd]

Maybe we will get lucky and the inevitable Voyager replacement order for XC will contain no new driving vehicles.....

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will coaches from 800s be fully interchangeable with coaches from 801s?

 

[D365]

Will coaches from 800s be fully interchangeable with coaches from 801s?

Afaik the different TOPS classifications are simply to differentiate between bi-mode and 'pure electric' units.

 

[superalbs]

Maybe we will get lucky and the inevitable Voyager replacement order for XC will contain no new driving vehicles.....

Sure hope that happens, the AT300s would be a great fit for the route, especially with it's large amount of electrification. Perhaps the sad little units that are used along the route could be dumped onto Northern? Their good acceleration might help out!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sure hope that happens, the AT300s would be a great fit for the route, especially with it's large amount of electrification. Perhaps the sad little units that are used along the route could be dumped onto Northern? Their good acceleration might help out!

But they stink even more than the 142 I was on earlier today!

 

[superalbs]

But they stink even more than the 142 I was on earlier today!

The toilets should be replaced, then Northern can have them. ;P

 

[Chris125]

It did and does seem odd to me that they weren't built as 10-car formations (and 5+5s) in the first place.

Isn't a 9-car train roughly equivalent in capacity to 5+5, giving the operator more flexibility to substitute one for the other? I'm sure I've seen that given as a reason.

 

[Emblematic]

Isn't a 9-car train roughly equivalent in capacity to 5+5, giving the operator more flexibility to substitute one for the other? I'm sure I've seen that given as a reason.

Almost exactly (315 vs 627) but it seems strange to cram seats in at such high density but then leave the train 26m shorter than it could be. Unless 260m is too long for the platforms, but that scuppers the interchangeability argument too. I foresee reformations happening over time. Interestingly, some of the IEP diagrams are specified for 8 and 10 car units, although that is not what has been ordered, and a maximum unit length of 312m (12 cars) is also specified.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will either the 800s or 801s have any sort of SDO or ASDO ability built in?

 

[D365]

Will either the 800s or 801s have any sort of SDO or ASDO ability built in?

Yes I remember that being mentioned as part of the specification for the TMS.

 

[ainsworth74]

Will either the 800s or 801s have any sort of SDO or ASDO ability built in?

Both, see section 4.13 onwards. But the key point:

IEP Trains must be fitted with an SDO system to allow for longer IEP Trains operating in single or Multiple Working formation to stop at short platforms.

The SDO system shall include the facility to enable each power operated door along the length of an IEP Train to be separately included/excluded from the door release pattern at each station.

 

[Haydn1971]

Interesting to note that in September's Modern Railways, that Agility Trains have provided a "commercially confidential" estimate to deliver 21x 9 car Class 801's as Bi-mode Class 800's - confirmed by Rail Minister Claire Perry

 

[notadriver]

Yes I remember that being mentioned as part of the specification for the TMS.

The class 395s have that facility so it should be easy enough to repeat on the 800s

 

[sbatts43]

Isn't a 9-car train roughly equivalent in capacity to 5+5, giving the operator more flexibility to substitute one for the other? I'm sure I've seen that given as a reason.

Can someone tell me that HST on FGW which are currently 7 car mostly 8 car, are the trains now going to be 5 car with some 10 car when Class 800/801 trains are introduced. How is 5 car going to increase capacity? Why can`t they have 8 car Class 800/801 trains?

 

[swt_passenger]

Can someone tell me that HST on FGW which are currently 7 car mostly 8 car, are the trains now going to be 5 car with some 10 car when Class 800/801 trains are introduced. How is 5 car going to increase capacity? Why can`t they have 8 car Class 800/801 trains?

They'll be either 5 car, 5+5 = 10 car, and 9 car. The 9 car has almost exactly the same capacity as a 5+5, as it has two less cabs.

The allocation of specific train size to services has been debated here for the last three or four years, I guess by the time they enter service that will all be forgotten.

 

[The Ham]

Can someone tell me that HST on FGW which are currently 7 car mostly 8 car, are the trains now going to be 5 car with some 10 car when Class 800/801 trains are introduced. How is 5 car going to increase capacity? Why can`t they have 8 car Class 800/801 trains?

8 car trains cause other problems (i.e. can't be doubled up, reduce capacity if they are used to replace a 9 coach set, etc.). There are a few key advantage of 5 car sets which can be paired up, these include:
- being able to run them as 5 coach sets when capacity is low which can then free up units to be used where extra capacity is required
- being able to run more frequent services by pairing up sets out of London and then running them to two different locations meaning that each of those two locations can have 2tph rather than 1 tph without using any extra paths whilst increasing capacity over running a single HST

A good example of this happening is with the 158/159's which SWT's use which often drop sets or split to serve Exeter and Bristol at Salisbury. If they had fixed length (long) trains then either people would have to change trains at Salisbury or they would have to find extra paths for the Bristol services. There would also be a lot of empty seats on some services west of Salisbury.

 

[sbatts43]

They'll be either 5 car, 5+5 = 10 car, and 9 car. The 9 car has almost exactly the same capacity as a 5+5, as it has two less cabs.

The allocation of specific train size to services has been debated here for the last three or four years, I guess by the time they enter service that will all be forgotten.

Thanks for your reply swt_passenger. That's made it more clear to me. Although on Summer Saturdays there should not be any 5 car running.

 

[jimm]

Thanks for your reply swt_passenger. That's made it more clear to me. Although on Summer Saturdays there should not be any 5 car running.

If you mean to the West Country, then it seems fair to assume pretty much everything will be a nine-car or 2x5 formation across the busiest parts of the day - but there will still be plenty of 5-car sets operating on other GW routes to the likes of Worcester and Cheltenham.