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GWR Class 800

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Class 170101

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All I can see is talk about padding. Nothing about the actual acceleration of the train.

The general trend is to add more padding to minimise delay minutes. Has been happening for years and has nothing to do with new stock.

The DfT requires IEP to do it in 188 minutes plus allowances, i.e., slower than now.

If you read the article thoroughly it suggests London to Inverness will be slower particularly between Edinburgh and Inverness.
188 minutes is suggested against 174½ minutes of today. Both of those times are net of todays allowances such as Pathing, Performance and Engineering.
 
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notadriver

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So they've managed to time a train that hasn't had a proper run out yet and there isn't even one in the country?

Clever stuff!











No I'm saying people have timed an HST to be faster to 60 than both a Turbostar or a class 91 formation.
 

asylumxl

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If you read the article thoroughly it suggests London to Inverness will be slower particularly between Edinburgh and Inverness.
188 minutes is suggested against 174½ minutes of today. Both of those times are net of todays allowances such as Pathing, Performance and Engineering.

Requires. e.g. the maximum journey time they are willing to accept. And an article "suggesting" something is no less credible than a rumour.
 

Dave1987

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Broken record comes to mind :roll:. Could you please cite a source for your claim?

The acceleration profile of HSTs is pretty pathetic anyway so I doubt it will be much of an issue. Not like they need to be particularly rapid on the lines they will operate under diesel power.

A person who is involved in the timetable for the bi-mode IEP on Great Western. The DFT wanted a train that would be just as fast running on the diesel engines as it would be on the overheads. All industry experts stated it wasn't possible. Hitatchi gave them the best solution from a bad spec. One of the reasons why Great Western are not having all their HSTs replaced by IEP bi-modes as the bi-modes would lose loads and loads of time on the hilly bits. Again this is from someone involved in the timetabling of IEP and actually knows what they are on about.
 
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asylumxl

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A person who is involved in the timetable for the bi-mode IEP on Great Western. The DFT wanted a train that would be just as fast running on the diesel engines as it would be on the overheads. All industry experts stated it wasn't possible. Hitatchi gave them the best solution from a bad spec. One of the reasons why Great Western are not having all their HSTs replaced by IEP bi-modes as the bi-modes would lose loads and loads of time on the hilly bits. Again this is from someone involved in the timetabling of IEP and actually knows what they are on about.


So please cite the figures for acceleration you were talking about. Otherwise it's all hearsay.

Also, since they didn't intend to put the IEPs on Plymouth/Penzance services it seems logical that it wouldn't be designed for tougher gradients anyway.
 

jimm

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A person who is involved in the timetable for the bi-mode IEP on Great Western. The DFT wanted a train that would be just as fast running on the diesel engines as it would be on the overheads. All industry experts stated it wasn't possible. Hitatchi gave them the best solution from a bad spec. One of the reasons why Great Western are not having all their HSTs replaced by IEP bi-modes as the bi-modes would lose loads and loads of time on the hilly bits. Again this is from someone involved in the timetabling of IEP and actually knows what they are on about.

Again another of your fantasies. FGW is not having HSTs replaced - for the time being - on West Country services because the amount of electrified running available on such services would be limited to the section east of Newbury, a rather different matter from routes to be served by Class 800s - where, apart from Hereford duties, half or more of the core routes will be wired. And IEPs will work to Exeter and Torbay, which requires them to climb to Whiteball summit, a 'hilly bit' in most people's eyes, though admittedly not as steep as those between Newton Abbot and Plymouth.

There are also some 'hilly bits' on core IEP routes, such as Chipping Campden bank, the Malverns and Sapperton, in case you hadn't noticed, and I have yet to see anyone suggesting there will be a catastrophic effect on timings on those services, though no doubt your unchallengeable mystery source, of course, knows different...

Given the modular design, there would appear to be no reason why you couldn't fit more engine rafts under more coaches of a nine or 10-car train to produce a version with more oomph for Rattery etc - if that's what's needed but I'm not a traction engineer or physicist, so don't know - though presumably the expectation is that wires will go at least as far as Plymouth in future, making such a step unnecessary anyway.
 

route:oxford

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No I'm saying people have timed an HST to be faster to 60 than both a Turbostar or a class 91 formation.

What's the formation of the each of these sets during the comparative timing?

How does it compare to a 10 car Voyager set?
 

notadriver

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It was a standard 2+8 HST formation, I expect 170s and Voyagers to have similar performance (not to each other) whether or not in multiple as they have an engine under each car and it was a standard class 91+9+DVT rake.

The voyager was faster to 60 but whilst the 91 was slow it has awesome power in the mid-range :)
 

swt_passenger

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GW is only getting 5 car bi-modes.

The apparent power problem when running on diesel was explained as a factor of the full length bi-modes with (as originally planned) a single end power car, pretty much irrelevant to the GW as they aren't getting any, and even if they were the redesign with underfloor engines supposedly solved the problem.
 
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Dave1987

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Again another of your fantasies. FGW is not having HSTs replaced - for the time being - on West Country services because the amount of electrified running available on such services would be limited to the section east of Newbury, a rather different matter from routes to be served by Class 800s - where, apart from Hereford duties, half or more of the core routes will be wired. And IEPs will work to Exeter and Torbay, which requires them to climb to Whiteball summit, a 'hilly bit' in most people's eyes, though admittedly not as steep as those between Newton Abbot and Plymouth.

There are also some 'hilly bits' on core IEP routes, such as Chipping Campden bank, the Malverns and Sapperton, in case you hadn't noticed, and I have yet to see anyone suggesting there will be a catastrophic effect on timings on those services, though no doubt your unchallengeable mystery source, of course, knows different...

Given the modular design, there would appear to be no reason why you couldn't fit more engine rafts under more coaches of a nine or 10-car train to produce a version with more oomph for Rattery etc - if that's what's needed but I'm not a traction engineer or physicist, so don't know - though presumably the expectation is that wires will go at least as far as Plymouth in future, making such a step unnecessary anyway.

There are certain people on this forum who know who my source is and how knowledgeable they are. My source is a very well respected person in the railway world. They have said that above 30mph on the diesels the acceleration profile is rubbish which is why there is no time savings at all. Considering the high floors etc etc, the poor acceleration and the huge cost, my opinions on the bi-modes seem entirely justified. Especially considering how people are always on about the acceleration of trains being important.
 
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route:oxford

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It was a standard 2+8 HST formation.

For comparing the acceleration of the Bi-mode Class 800 vs the legacy HST sets, surely it is better to compare with a 2+9 HST as commonly found on the Highland Chieftan set.

Of course, in fairly early course the 800 series will be operating under the wires beyond Edinburgh.

In the first instance to Falkirk Grahamston, then Stirling too.

I'm just wondering if it'll change power on the move, or if we expect a new stop Northbound at Dunblane when the wires stop
 

The Ham

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There are certain people on this forum who know who my source is and how knowledgeable they are. My source is a very well respected person in the railway world. They have said that above 30mph on the diesels the acceleration profile is rubbish which is why there is no time savings at all. Considering the high floors etc etc, the poor acceleration and the huge cost, my opinions on the bi-modes seem entirely justified. Especially considering how people are always on about the acceleration of trains being important.

No time saving (when off the wires) is better than a reduction. However, when on the wires IEP will out performe HST's. Therefore, as nearly all routes served by IEP's will have long sections running under the wires, quite a lot of people will see at least some improvement.
 

jimm

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There are certain people on this forum who know who my source is and how knowledgeable they are. My source is a very well respected person in the railway world. They have said that above 30mph on the diesels the acceleration profile is rubbish which is why there is no time savings at all. Considering the high floors etc etc, the poor acceleration and the huge cost, my opinions on the bi-modes seem entirely justified. Especially considering how people are always on about the acceleration of trains being important.

Well that's fine and dandy for "certain people", whoever they may be, but means that the rest of us unprivileged oiks have no idea what actual information you are basing your claims on, therefore they are no better than hearsay.

And even if IEP accelerated like a space rocket, whatever the propulsion system, whatever the interior looked like, etc, etc, etc, you would still be moaning about it anyway, wouldn't you?
 

notadriver

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Not an accurate source but :

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express_Programme

Suggests 3 * 940 bhp engines on a 5 car iep and 5 * 940 bhp engines on a 9 car.

I'm going to assume 440 tons weight for a 9 car bi-mode.

Under electric power they have 4MW (5360 hp) available (approx 12 hp/ton) and on diesel it's 4700 bhp from the engines (a bit more than from an HST) so I would suspect performance to be slightly better given that more axles are powered.

For comparison a class 395 has 3.3MW for its 265 tons giving 17 hp/ton power to weight ratio.
 
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Dave1987

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Dave1987 - do you think acceleration is important ?

Good acceleration is very important in newly designed modern trains, the Desiros are great and have fantastic acceleration.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well that's fine and dandy for "certain people", whoever they may be, but means that the rest of us unprivileged oiks have no idea what actual information you are basing your claims on, therefore they are no better than hearsay.

And even if IEP accelerated like a space rocket, whatever the propulsion system, whatever the interior looked like, etc, etc, etc, you would still be moaning about it anyway, wouldn't you?

Apart from the IEP project being hellishly expensive, I have no issue with the full electric IEP. My source is very much involved in the creation of the timetable for IEP on the great western line. I don't really care whether you believe it is "hearsay" or not as most of you seem to only get you info from the press, so only hear what the people in power want you to hear. I believe a guy was once shot down on this forum for disclosing something his dad heard and no gave him credence until they heard it from an official source. You can argue all you want about bi-modes being the best thing since sliced bread etc etc and shoot down anyone who dares to disagree with you. My source who like I said is a very well respected person in the railway world has told me that the bi-modes acceleration above 30 mph is rubbish and there will be no time gains off the wires. This in my opinion calls into question why have bi-modes at all considering the high floors, waste of energy under the wires etc etc especially when the are going to be no quicker and are costing huge amounts of money.
 

JamesRowden

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In the IEP specifications (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/82840/tts-redacted.pdf) it states that the train must be capable of traveling certain journeys in a certain time. Therefore the journey of the present 17:22 service from Paddington to Hereford which is presently timetabled for 185 minutes by an HST: must be possible to be done in 141 minutes by a 5-car Bimode. Therefore the class 800 seems to far faster than an HST.

Edit:
The journey time referenced is on page 73 of the document.

Edit2:
Just noticed that this requirement included: "Station dwells to be assumed to take 0 seconds." The HST has a total timetabled dwell time of 29 minutes. Adding this on would make the class 800 take a minimum of 170 minutes compared with the 17:22 HSTs 185 minutes. Still a fair bit faster though.
 
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krus_aragon

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In the IEP specifications (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/82840/tts-redacted.pdf) it states that the train must be capable of traveling certain journeys in a certain time. Therefore the journey of the present 17:22 service from Paddington to Hereford which is presently timetabled for 185 minutes by an HST: must be possible to be done in 141 minutes by a 5-car Bimode. Therefore the class 800 seems to far faster than an HST.

Without referring to the document (am out on the road), would the 141 minutes be non-stop?
 
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JamesRowden

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Without referring to the document (am out on the road), would the 141 minutes be non-stop?

No, its the same stopping pattern:

Paddington
Reading
Oxford
*13 Stops (the same stops)*
Hereford

Edit:
The journey time requirement assumed zero second dwell times. I have edited my previous post to account for this.
 
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route:oxford

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Good acceleration is very important in newly designed modern trains, the Desiros are great and have fantastic acceleration.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Apart from the IEP project being hellishly expensive, I have no issue with the full electric IEP. My source is very much involved in the creation of the timetable for IEP on the great western line. I don't really care whether you believe it is "hearsay" or not as most of you seem to only get you info from the press, so only hear what the people in power want you to hear. I believe a guy was once shot down on this forum for disclosing something his dad heard and no gave him credence until they heard it from an official source. You can argue all you want about bi-modes being the best thing since sliced bread etc etc and shoot down anyone who dares to disagree with you. My source who like I said is a very well respected person in the railway world has told me that the bi-modes acceleration above 30 mph is rubbish and there will be no time gains off the wires. This in my opinion calls into question why have bi-modes at all considering the high floors, waste of energy under the wires etc etc especially when the are going to be no quicker and are costing huge amounts of money.

Why are you so terribly obsessed with cost of something? It is the long-term value that is the most important element.

You clearly use the present tense "above 30mph is rubbish" but I'm absolutely confident that your friend has not been on an 800 series bimode unit on the Great Western Mainline.

"Respected" is a word like "prestigious" - as soon as I see it I'm immediately distrustful of the person using it.
 

Class 170101

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No, its the same stopping pattern:

Paddington
Reading
Oxford
*13 Stops (the same stops)*
Hereford

Edit:
The journey time requirement assumed zero second dwell times. I have edited my previous post to account for this.

The journey time I suspect you will find also also includes no engineering allowances, pathing time (as required) or performance allowance (again as required).
 
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jimm

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Good acceleration is very important in newly designed modern trains, the Desiros are great and have fantastic acceleration.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Apart from the IEP project being hellishly expensive, I have no issue with the full electric IEP. My source is very much involved in the creation of the timetable for IEP on the great western line. I don't really care whether you believe it is "hearsay" or not as most of you seem to only get you info from the press, so only hear what the people in power want you to hear. I believe a guy was once shot down on this forum for disclosing something his dad heard and no gave him credence until they heard it from an official source. You can argue all you want about bi-modes being the best thing since sliced bread etc etc and shoot down anyone who dares to disagree with you. My source who like I said is a very well respected person in the railway world has told me that the bi-modes acceleration above 30 mph is rubbish and there will be no time gains off the wires. This in my opinion calls into question why have bi-modes at all considering the high floors, waste of energy under the wires etc etc especially when the are going to be no quicker and are costing huge amounts of money.

Since you raise the "guy who was shot down", I assume you mean the thread about Chiltern leasing Class 68s. I'm not sure that's the best thing to raise again, given that someone swore blind in that thread that a lease for 11 DRS 68s for Chiltern and ATW had been signed and, when challenged by me, posted the following

I assure you my contact is the highest grade of official

Number of Class 68s currently sub-leased to Chiltern - six. Number leased to ATW - zero.

Now your contact might be an even higher, better grade of official but with zero information that anyone else can look at, it is still no better than hearsay. And since testing of the first train has barely started, how your contact is so certain about the train's performance is something of a mystery.

And we all know your opinion about bi-modes, but at no point, whenever you have been challenged about the only obvious alternative - building an expensive, bespoke class of diesel locomotives that would spend much of the day hauling around featherweight five-coach trains that would clearly be better provided by some sort of self-propelled multiple-unit, and locomotives that may well be redundant in a few years if wires spread as we all hope, plus providing all the supporting infrastructure that such machines would require - have you ever deigned to explain why this alternative is so much better. You just ignore anyone who dares to seek an explanation, as I'm sure you will yet again on this occasion.

Of course, we could just have a battery IEP instead, couldn't we? Though you seem to have gone quiet on that idea very quickly. And the technology is clearly nowhere near the point that it is capable of meeting the needs of the sections of IEP routes beyond the wires.

I have never said the bi-mode is the best thing since sliced bread, simply that, in current circumstances, it is, to my mind, the best way of ensuring that through services are maintained to places like the Cotswolds, Worcester, Gloucester, Cheltenham, etc, where wiring is still a way off.

RE Hereford service, there is no doubt that cutting dwell times will make a huge difference to timings. The comparison now between Cotswold Line journeys on an HST and a 180 is stark, due to the sheer amount of time spent sat in stations while train managers walk the length of the platforms checking the slam doors on the HSTs are shut - 140 minutes may be pushing it, I'd say 165 might be more like it, but if bi-mode performance is as bad as Dave 1987's source appears to suggest, then it will probably be 240 minutes...
 
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HSTEd

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Considering the DfT now considers Wiring resources sufficient to convert swathes of the Southern Region (in addition to the current programme) it seems the supposed bottleneck in wiring equipment has passed the programme can be accelerated.

So just get on and wire things already.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Is the raised floor in the 800s part of the main structure? If it's not could the floor be lowered if they get the diesel engines removed?
 

59CosG95

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Is the raised floor in the 800s part of the main structure? If it's not could the floor be lowered if they get the diesel engines removed?

Sadly, it is part of the main structure. This applies to both the 800s and 801s, so that the class is interchangeable with one another, should the need for more or less bimodes arise.
 

jimm

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Considering the DfT now considers Wiring resources sufficient to convert swathes of the Southern Region (in addition to the current programme) it seems the supposed bottleneck in wiring equipment has passed the programme can be accelerated.

So just get on and wire things already.

Sorry, but I don't think they are going to get round to wiring Oxford-Hereford, Swindon-Cheltenham-Worcester and Bristol-Weston-super-Mare by 2017, or for quite some time afterwards given all the schemes already committed around the country. Just getting the main line to Bristol and Cardiff, plus Oxford and Westbury, ready is going to be tight enough, before you even get to Cardiff-Swansea for 2018. Never mind where the money is going to come from for your fantasy.

But you know all that anyway.
 

deltic08

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Sorry, but I don't think they are going to get round to wiring Oxford-Hereford, Swindon-Cheltenham-Worcester and Bristol-Weston-super-Mare by 2017, or for quite some time afterwards given all the schemes already committed around the country. Just getting the main line to Bristol and Cardiff, plus Oxford and Westbury, ready is going to be tight enough, before you even get to Cardiff-Swansea for 2018. Never mind where the money is going to come from for your fantasy.

But you know all that anyway.

Do you mean Westbury or do you know something I don't?

I think bimodes are a complete pigs ear. How much does five diesel power units, fuel and alternators per train weigh? It all adds to unnecessary axle loading. Why not continue with 180s or HSTs where off-wire services are required? Abellio is quite happy to continue with refurbished shortened HSTs in Scotland for at least the next ten years. Why not south of the border?

There is every chance that Swindon-Gloucester-Severn Tunnel Junction will be wired as a diversion route for Severn Tunnel and Hereford-Worcester-Birmingham as a growing commuter route. Wiring Gloucester-Worcester would allow pure electric IEPs to run this way to Hereford. The downside is that Oxford-Worcester would have to continue with connecting DMUs.

This would also allow EMUs to operate Maesteg-Cardiff-Cheltenham and Cheltenham-Gloucester-Swindon stoppers as now and Cardiff-Birmingham semi fasts via Worcester and Droitwich.
 
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