• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

GWR Class 800

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
It's not only that. Imagine that you've arrived at Heathrow after a six or eight hour flight. You're tired, out of kilter with the time and have no idea whether Knightsbridge is before or after Hammersmith and it's certainly the first time you've read the word 'Cockfosters'.

And then you stand in front of this ticket machine and try to work out what you have to do - what sort of ticket does one need from the variety on offer and how does one pay?

Is this the right train?

Then you arrive at Knightsbridge - or wherever -, it's raining, you have two cases and you haven't a clue which way you turn coming out of the station because all you have is an inadequate map sent by the hotel to show where it is. Then you discover there are two exits,...Oh, and the traffic is coming at you from the wrong direction... You are tired and your problem solving faculties are degraded.

As you have spent, or your employer has spent, several hundred, if not thousands <insertcurrencyname> to get you to London, and even if the hotel is not so expensive - it is so much easier, and often quicker, to take a taxi rather than faff around trying to find a cheaper public transport alternative.

It's always the right taxi...by definition.

It's all very well to say that one should plan one's trip in detail before one starts. But the reality is that its very difficult to do so, because of time pressures, all the other things which have to be done before departure or difficulty in knowing the right questions to ask.

Not everybody is a high powered executive staying in five star hotels - travel in foreign countries can be stressful - hence the continued existence of package holidays although in theory one can arrange everything these days oneself using the world wide web. Taxis and a simple product like HEx address these problems.

No one is disputing that people who are not from the UK are going (even if they are not willing) to pay a premium to get where they need to go.

However there will be a lot of people from within London (either from their homes or businesses) who will know about TfL fares and who's bosses/significant others will be pushing for them to use the cheapest options (or at the very least will grill them as to why they opted for the more expensive option). As such there will likely be a dwindling use of Heathrow Express to a point where it becomes no longer attractive for it to run (i.e. not making as much money).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
8,236
Crossrail is probably going to dent the incredibly lucrative Heathrow Taxi trade so expect the driver to start complaining after the dust settles on Uber.

Ultimately Heathrow has to encourage both more passengers and employees to get to/from the airport by no local emission public transport to cut the NOx Etc emissions. They will need to promote Crossrail and Wrath not just HEx to do this. (And electric buses).

Congestion charging including Taxis may be needed...
 

po8crg

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
559
The first big battle will be to see some Crossrail signage in LHR. There's certainly no Heathrow Connect signage at the mo!
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,016
Location
St Albans
The first big battle will be to see some Crossrail signage in LHR. There's certainly no Heathrow Connect signage at the mo!

Given that Crossrail will be a a primary public transport mode and route into Central London, I doubt that Heathrow will be allowed restrict signage to less than that for the Piccadilly Line. Anyway, as has been said here recently, keeping the levels of local pollution down will be part of any deal for expansion so it wouldn't be in their interest to pretend that Crossrail isn't there.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,003
Given that Crossrail will be a a primary public transport mode and route into Central London, I doubt that Heathrow will be allowed restrict signage to less than that for the Piccadilly Line. Anyway, as has been said here recently, keeping the levels of local pollution down will be part of any deal for expansion so it wouldn't be in their interest to pretend that Crossrail isn't there.

I tend to think Heathrow will do a deal - sell their Class 332 fleet, give up their paths and perhaps even contribute to TfL taking up the option on the 18 additional Class 345 units, in return for the third runway.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
I tend to think Heathrow will do a deal - sell their Class 332 fleet, give up their paths and perhaps even contribute to TfL taking up the option on the 18 additional Class 345 units, in return for the third runway.

You think they'll be obstructive and awkward if Gatwick gets a second runway instead?
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,016
Location
St Albans
You think they'll be obstructive and awkward if Gatwick gets a second runway instead?

If they take on TfL they'll have a much bigger fight. Network Rail is a fairly faceless body, TfL is quite the opposite.
 

JamesRowden

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
1,762
Location
Ilfracombe
I tend to think Heathrow will do a deal - sell their Class 332 fleet, give up their paths and perhaps even contribute to TfL taking up the option on the 18 additional Class 345 units, in return for the third runway.

I think that Heathrow will lose those paths at the end of the contract unless the government like the concept of Heathrow Express. If Heathrow was to threaten to not allow any trains to operate on its infrastructure, the government could simply say `we'll give the runway to Gatwick then and let us see how not allowing trains to operate on your infrastructure helps you in your battle against Gatwick'. Basically, I think that Heathrow is not in a position to make any demands.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,315
Location
Reading
According to the NAO report the total cost for ALL IEP trains to the TOC's over tge 27.5 years is £7.65bn. Divide one by the other and you get £278 million for all the trains.

But the report doesn't state that the total cost is £7.65bn. It states that the Present value of total contract payments in April 2014 prices is £7.65bn - a very different animal.

Net Present Value is a way of allowing for the effect of inflation on future cash flows. The further in the future, the less is the value of the money now.

I can't be bothered to do a full calculation, and anyway the exact Train Service Provision payments for each year have not been published, but based on the annual payment calculated by Roger Ford which I reported (and rounded off) of £300 million for the Western's tranche for the first year, allowing a couple of per cent for inflation, and using the Treasury's Test Discount Rate of 3.5% over a period of 20 years gives a Net Present Value of the contract of around £4.9 billion.

For a back-of-the-envelope calculation that is pretty close to the NPV given in the NAO's report of £4.098 billion for the Western's diagrams for a period of 27.5 years.

I reckon that the estimate of £300 million for the annual payment is not so far off the mark - it might be a bit high, but not much.

So, I stand by my point which is that the IEP contract payments will be roughly three times what GWR now pays for ALL its trains. To be very certain I would say that the annual IEP contract payments are going to be between two and three times what GWR now pays for all its trains!

There will be some ingenious financial engineering required to ensure that fares are not affected.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Your forgetting the maintenance, fuel, depot costs and some staff costs which the contracts also include, not just leasing costs. The only thing that aren't included in the contracts are the driver and other train staff. According to ORR the total FGW pays in train operating costs in 2012 was £500m of which train staff was 30%, rolling stock costs was 27% and other operational costs was 43%. The other operational costs are mostly included in these contracts barring platform access fees, Police, debt interest and marketing costs.

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/4933/toc-benchmarking-report-2012.pdf
 
Last edited:

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
But the report doesn't state that the total cost is £7.65bn. It states that the Present value of total contract payments in April 2014 prices is £7.65bn - a very different animal.

Net Present Value is a way of allowing for the effect of inflation on future cash flows. The further in the future, the less is the value of the money now.

I can't be bothered to do a full calculation, and anyway the exact Train Service Provision payments for each year have not been published, but based on the annual payment calculated by Roger Ford which I reported (and rounded off) of £300 million for the Western's tranche for the first year, allowing a couple of per cent for inflation, and using the Treasury's Test Discount Rate of 3.5% over a period of 20 years gives a Net Present Value of the contract of around £4.9 billion.

For a back-of-the-envelope calculation that is pretty close to the NPV given in the NAO's report of £4.098 billion for the Western's diagrams for a period of 27.5 years.

I reckon that the estimate of £300 million for the annual payment is not so far off the mark - it might be a bit high, but not much.

So, I stand by my point which is that the IEP contract payments will be roughly three times what GWR now pays for ALL its trains. To be very certain I would say that the annual IEP contract payments are going to be between two and three times what GWR now pays for all its trains!

There will be some ingenious financial engineering required to ensure that fares are not affected.

So there's an allowance for the cost if the lease going up with inflation but not for the payments being made to go up year on year? That's the reason that just divided one by the other, as otherwise yes payments in year 1 will be high but by year 27 will be low. In this case £300 million and £176 million (assuming 2% inflation for 27 years devaluating the value of the payments for the final year).
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
If there is any dent in services, it will be to the London - Paddington stopping trains because as per the details that I have seen on the Crossrail site, these trains will be replacing at least 3 stopping trains per including the Heathrow connect services. As you can see from the route details from teh Western section of the Crossrail site http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/western-section/ and the note on this page that state the following:

Electric trains providing a quicker, cleaner, quieter and smoother journey than the current stopping diesel trains used west of Paddington

There is I believe no threat to the Heathrow Express services.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,232
On the contrary, the threat to HEX is clearly from the 4tph Crossrail that replaces the 2 tph Connect service, and rather than terminating at Paddington takes people right across London without a change.

What's happening on the relief lines is a sideshow to the discussion about HEX.

Besides, that quote from the Crossrail site is out of date, because by the time Crossrail starts running the GW relief line service is intended to be using long EMUs as well. Although It was updated slightly at the time to reflect the extension of Crossrail beyond Maidenhead to Reading, they don't seem to have considered the replacement of the DMU services as a result of the same OHLE decision.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,315
Location
Reading
So there's an allowance for the cost if the lease going up with inflation but not for the payments being made to go up year on year? That's the reason that just divided one by the other, as otherwise yes payments in year 1 will be high but by year 27 will be low. In this case £300 million and £176 million (assuming 2% inflation for 27 years devaluating the value of the payments for the final year).

I'm not sure that I quite understand your point, so I'll describe what is understood by NPV and explain a bit more the model I used. Health warning - I am not an accountant but I have done such calculations in the past in trying to work out the best course of action! This is also a very brief outline - NPV calculations can be a lot more complicated!

Money has a time value which basically says that incomes and expenditures today or next week have a more direct effect on you that the same amount in 10 or 20 years time - even if the transactions now and those in the future were equally certain, that is, there is no risk involved. In other words, future payments are of less value to you now than the payments being made to you now. For example, a payment being made now can be invested immediately and earn interest or can be used to pay a bill and avoid you being dragged through the County Courts! Payments to be made in the future are a bit more, well, theoretical!

This reduction in the current value of future cash flows depends largely on the inflation rate and what the market's expected rate of return is for the particular class of transaction or business. There are sets of formulae for calculating NPV, but basically one takes the transaction (positive for income or negative for expenditure) at some point in the future - normally at fixed time intervals, weeks, months or years - add the two together and discounts the result by the nominal inflation rate (or rate of return) expected between now and then. The result is the Present Value at that point in time. Each of these Present Values over the life of the programme or investment is then added together and the sum is the Net Present Value.

In order to be able to compare the profitability or otherwise between different investment opportunities a standard discount rate is used - here that tends to be the Treasury's Test Discount Rate which is set at 3.5%. Note that this is not necessarily the expected inflation rate - it is simply a standard number which gives consistency between different sets of calculations.

So I assumed the annual payment for the diagrams contracted for in the IEP agreements would increase by 1% - costs do increase but these can be countered by more efficient working methods or the discovery that some part doesn't need so much maintenance as expected. So 1% seems about right.

Not all the trains will be in service in Year 1 so I assumed only part of the £300 million will fall due in that year, Year 2 more trains would be in service and the full Train Service Provision Payments would first fall due in Year 3. After this I increased the £300 million by 1% compound for the next eighteen years. All the annual payments from Year 2 onwards were then reduced by 3.5% compound and these answers, including Year 1, were summed to get the NPV. It's quite easy on a spreadsheet!

And my calculation - for such a crude model - is not a million miles from the figure published by the DfT. So I reckon that the annual Train Service Provision payment for the contracted diagrams on the Western is probably somewhere between £275 million and £325 million per year.
 
Last edited:

deltic08

On Moderation
Joined
26 Aug 2013
Messages
2,900
Location
North
That sounds very much like Heathrow making stuff up to keep their precious Express. Back of the envelope sums gives us 8% of Heathrow passengers using HeX - do we really believe that more than one in three of them would either not fly or use an alternative airport (with a longer journey even on an "express")?

As far as I'm concerned, they're welcome to an express - they just need to build their own line from Stockley Jn onwards (best of all, direct to the City where it can deliver the "creme de la creme of audiences" to where they no doubt are going).

If they dropped their fares to what the average Jo Public can afford then they would have more business whatever the journey time. Not everybody who uses Heathrow is on expense accounts.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

po8crg

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
559
If they dropped their fares to what the average Jo Public can afford then they would have more business whatever the journey time. Not everybody who uses Heathrow is on expense accounts.
I think that Heathrow's view is that if they did that, then the expense account people would switch to taxis (or, let's be honest, limos).

The exclusivity of HEx is part of the attraction. For some of the people on it, it's the only public transport they ever use.

I do wonder if an FC car in some 345s running Heathrow - Canary Wharf would be a smart move.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,844
Location
UK
But many people will pay the premium to save a few minute (perhaps more so to the airport than from?) even if funding from their own pocket. Tourists may get 'tricked' by the HEX staff all over the airport.

And if prices were lowered, the trains might end up too busy and lose them sales and hurt their reputation.

I'd hope some form of express service remained.
 

Goldfish62

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
13,123
Quote from Roger Ford's email Informed Sources about his and Ian Walmsley's assessment of the Class 800:

"Our joint first impression was one of disappointment. Technically and functionally the Class 800 will do what it is supposed to do and take people where they want to go. But from the passengers’ viewport, when compared with the best trains in Europe, it is nowhere. "

Oh dear, but then I'm not surprised.
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
Quote from Roger Ford's email Informed Sources about his and Ian Walmsley's assessment of the Class 800:

"Our joint first impression was one of disappointment. Technically and functionally the Class 800 will do what it is supposed to do and take people where they want to go. But from the passengers’ viewport, when compared with the best trains in Europe, it is nowhere. "

Oh dear, but then I'm not surprised.
Doesn't one of them have interests in a ROSCO?

I'd take their opinions with a pinch of salt either way. It's all subjective.
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
It's 'worked'.



Anyone can read the rest of the 'Informed Sources' email here - http://live.ezezine.com/ezine/archives/759/759-2015.12.21.04.00.archive.txt
Thanks. Quoted for anyone who wants to see the rest.
Our joint first impression was one of disappointment. Technically and functionally the Class 800 will do what it is supposed to do and take people where they want to go. But from the passengers’ viewport, when compared with the best trains in Europe, it is nowhere.*

It is eight years since procurement started, since when DfT has spent over £30 million on consultancy. The GWR trains will cost roughly twice as much as a Pendolino to lease. For that you might expect to get – to combine two phrases normally banned from this column – a world class passenger experience and certainly a step up from the Mk 3 coach interiors on Great Western.*

As we say, the Class 800 will do the job, but with an austere ambience for an age of austerity which is down to DfT, not Hitachi. It is unlikely that DfT will allow any change to the GWR interiors until the replacement franchise in 2019. Whether Virgin will be able to create the ‘wow!’ factor on the East Coast Main Line remains to be seen.*
It seems to me that they're not critical of the trains themselves but rather the interiors the DfT have specified. Interiors aren't inherent to the train and so can be improved in the future.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,003
Quote from Roger Ford's email Informed Sources about his and Ian Walmsley's assessment of the Class 800:

"Our joint first impression was one of disappointment. Technically and functionally the Class 800 will do what it is supposed to do and take people where they want to go. But from the passengers’ viewport, when compared with the best trains in Europe, it is nowhere. "

Oh dear, but then I'm not surprised.

Disingenuous in the extreme. The remainder of the quote is

As we say, the Class 800 will do the job, but with an austere ambience for an age of austerity which is down to DfT, not Hitachi. It is unlikely that DfT will allow any change to the GWR interiors until the replacement franchise in 2019. Whether Virgin will be able to create the ‘wow!’ factor on the East Coast Main Line remains to be seen.

Ian and Roger don't rule out IEP being significantly different/better internally when Virgin start doing work on their interiors. It's also damned by feint praise - for Ian and Roger to say that IEP will do technically and functionally what is intended of it, that's quite an admission given they've both been quite vocal suggesting it might not.

Roger has even managed a begrudging nod of the hat to Hitachi for getting weights under control and producing a relatively light weight and energy efficient design, something that was better than he expected and as good as he knew was possible.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,315
Location
Reading
If they dropped their fares to what the average Jo Public can afford then they would have more business whatever the journey time. Not everybody who uses Heathrow is on expense accounts.

You've done the calculations, have you?

Don't forget BAA/HAL built the stations and tunnels at their expense. The money is being recouped via the fares paid. Unless someone pays off the remaining debt the fares on the Stockley Junction to Heathrow stretch will remain at a sufficient level to service the capital.
 

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,265
Location
Surrey
It seems to me that they're not critical of the trains themselves but rather the interiors the DfT have specified. Interiors aren't inherent to the train and so can be improved in the future.

Considering interior-wise the IEP is basically a 377/6, I'm not surprised. I really do hope this is sorted out in the future, as the units have a very high potential to be great.
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
Having read the article in Informed Sources in the Jan edition of MR magazine I am more convinced than ever that the DFT specification was aimed squarely at commuters. The fact these are supposed to be intercity trains seems to be a moot point for the DFT. The DFT specified, Hitachi designed and delivered. The fact they have had to put warning stickers up about the fact there is a slope suggests it isn't an insignificant slope that you would barely notice. And it wouldn't seem to look very easy to get a suitcase through the vestibule door. Sorry my mistake commuters don't carry luggage with them do they <D

Never mind I sure the usual suspects will be on here soon saying how biased Roger Ford is etc etc :roll:
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
1 inch difference at the centre of a 25m carriage, 1 inch in up to 12.5m I would guess 4m length of slope to accommodate the engine voids, not gonna do the conversion maths but expect that is an extremely shallow gradient something over 1/100.
 
Last edited:

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
You've done the calculations, have you?

Don't forget BAA/HAL built the stations and tunnels at their expense. The money is being recouped via the fares paid. Unless someone pays off the remaining debt the fares on the Stockley Junction to Heathrow stretch will remain at a sufficient level to service the capital.

but the fares alone aren't what's paying for it- they built it to make Heathrow a more attractive place to fly to/from by improving connectivity
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top