GWR Class 800

[Goldfish62]

It is, but it's an artificial limitation - the train, the traction motors etc, are all rated to 140mph. The question would be if the power packs can generate enough power to get the train upto 140mph and above.

I thought it had been confirmed that 125 is the maximum speed on diesel.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I thought it had been confirmed that 125 is the maximum speed on diesel.

It's all an artificial limitation, as is the 140mph limit on electric - that's the operating speed, not the maximum attainable speed.

There is a speed the Class 800 set will be able to reach which will be as fast as they can physically move on diesel and on electric power, as fast as the various factors allow - power, mass, drag, friction, rotational limit of wheel sets and traction motors, cooling limits for engines and traction motors. One (or perhaps more than one) of those factors will limit the absolute maximum speed the train can attain.

That's how a Class 91 locomotive managed 161mph and an HST set managed 148mph. The limiting factor on diesel will almost certainly be a lack of power rather than any other issue, on electric, it'll either be a lack of power, or it'll be the point at which centrifugal forces start causing motors and wheelsets to destabilise.

 

[Stats]

I thought it had been confirmed that 125 is the maximum speed on diesel.

I think there was some confusion over this. The minister stated that testing had proven they are capable of running at 125mph in service. I notice that Hitach's page on the Class 800/801 now says

Our trains are a combination of fully electric and bi-mode trains, the latter have diesel and electric propulsion. The trains can travel at up to 125 mph, in various formations from five to ten cars.

I'm fairly sure it previously said 110mph running in diesel.

 

[notadriver]

It's all an artificial limitation, as is the 140mph limit on electric - that's the operating speed, not the maximum attainable speed.



There is a speed the Class 800 set will be able to reach which will be as fast as they can physically move on diesel and on electric power, as fast as the various factors allow - power, mass, drag, friction, rotational limit of wheel sets and traction motors, cooling limits for engines and traction motors. One (or perhaps more than one) of those factors will limit the absolute maximum speed the train can attain.



That's how a Class 91 locomotive managed 161mph and an HST set managed 148mph. The limiting factor on diesel will almost certainly be a lack of power rather than any other issue, on electric, it'll either be a lack of power, or it'll be the point at which centrifugal forces start causing motors and wheelsets to destabilise.

The power to weight ratio of an 800 running on diesel power is about the same as a current 125 mph HST set. So why would they be limited to 100 mph on diesel power ?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The power to weight ratio of an 800 running on diesel power is about the same as a current 125 mph HST set. So why would they be limited to 100 mph on diesel power ?

They won't be going anywhere on diesel power in normal service that has 125mph line speeds, so the sets will have their engines derated in normal service to increase reliability. The figures I've heard are a derate from 750kW down to around 600kW.

The AT300 sets to be used into Devon and Cornwall will have their engines uprated to allow for greater acceleration - they should be capable of 125mph with relative ease, but this seems likely to be limited also.

 

[455driver]

I thought it had been confirmed that 125 is the maximum speed on diesel.

Only downhill!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The power to weight ratio of an 800 running on diesel power is about the same as a current 125 mph HST set. So why would they be limited to 100 mph on diesel power ?

One 'limit' will be that the onboard services will take quite a bit more power than a HST set so there will be less power available for propulsion.

 

[notadriver]

That should be counterbalanced by greater efficiency of the engine and traction drive.

 

[Skimble19]

According to www.old-dalby.com GBRF should have moved at least one of the IEP's from Ashfordby to North Pole IEP depot last Friday 16th October (5X08),
but it was `cancelled throughout due to a request by the customer`. Keep an eye on the excellent old-dalby.com site for more information.


(Realtime Trains) STP in for Old Dalby to North Pole IEP depot Friday 23rd October (FRGT 2142)

Can confirm the revised service ran earlier this evening as saw it passing through - the interior was lit up and it certainly looked nice!

 

[83G/84D]

IEP is at North Pole depot,seen a short time ago

 

[47802]

According to something I have seen elsewhere which has come from one of the magazines the IEP's will be de-rated to 750hp normally, but has been pointed out they wont need to go anywhere above 100mph on Diesel. The only issue may be the Temp situation of GW electrification running late.

The At300's for the South West should have more hp available and will presumably ideally need to run up 110mph on Diesel.

 

[physics34]

please please please make sure they are more comfortable than pendolinos

 

[fgwrich]

please please please make sure they are more comfortable than pendolinos

We shall see. I'm hesitant as those seat frames are an updated / uprated design from that we've already seen in the 376. I'm also disappointed to see Hitachi using that horrible faux metal again - the same silver effect chocolate box plastic panelling used in the 395, and tends to vibrate at higher speed. A little Bombardier like! Cue rattling panels on Diesel Mode.

IEP is at North Pole depot,seen a short time ago

I thought I'd passed something that looked IEP like in the depot yesterday, thanks for confirming it. I'm guessing it was dragged down by the GB 66?

 

[WatcherZero]

First five production series empty bodyshells now arrived in Hull.

 

[Peter Sarf]

First five production series empty bodyshells now arrived in Hull.

Ah yes. Forgot. So when do we expect the first "British" built one to go out onto the network ?.

 

[Noddy]

First five production series empty bodyshells now arrived in Hull.

Presumably that means all three prototype/test trains are here. Any idea where they are working?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Presumably that means all three prototype/test trains are here. Any idea where they are working?

Testing. One just moved to North Pole (nearer to Old Oak Common than Greenland) from Asfordby (iirc). Another is as far as I recall still at Asfordby (if that its name). Its up thread somewhere.

 

[CLH]

Are those which arrived into Hull additional to the five which arrived into the Port of Tyne?

http://www.portoftyne.co.uk/news/port-of-tyne/port-of-tyne-gives-hitachi-rail-europe-a-lift/

 

[WatcherZero]

Meh, Tyne, Hull.

 

[fgwrich]

First five production series empty bodyshells now arrived in Hull.

Let the Sticker Factory (and seat installation) commence!

That said, Bombardier did the same with using Procers former Wakefield Works to fit the Voyagers out, to the bodyshells from Bruges.

 

[47802]

Let the Sticker Factory (and seat installation) commence!

.

I'm sure those that are employed at the new factory and the UK based component suppliers will really appreciate your comment!

 

[jimm]

Let the Sticker Factory (and seat installation) commence!

That said, Bombardier did the same with using Procers former Wakefield Works to fit the Voyagers out, to the bodyshells from Bruges.

And Bombardier continue to do it at Derby, bolting together bits from all over the UK and Europe for their 'British' trains, same as lots of bits for the 800/801/AT300 trains are being/will be sent from the UK and Europe to Japan or Newton Aycliffe for final assembly into the trains.

This is a sterile and pointless argument - the days of every last part of a train being manufactured on the same site or with components from the same country are long gone.

On a more positive note, the Rail website says that 801001 hit 137.5mph during testing on Wednesday

Nine-car Intercity Express Programme 801001 reached 137.5mph during on October 28. The speeds were reached at the Rail Innovation and Development Centre (RIDC) at Old Dalby.
The speeds were reached during 'overspeed' tests that must be carried out by all new trains.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/10/30/iep-hits-new-speed-record

 

[AM9]

And Bombardier continue to do it at Derby, bolting together bits from all over the UK and Europe for their 'British' trains, same as lots of bits for the 800/801/AT300 trains are being/will be sent from the UK and Europe to Japan or Newton Aycliffe for final assembly into the trains.

This is a sterile and pointless argument - the days of every last part of a train being manufactured on the same site or with components from the same country are long gone.

On a more positive note, the Rail website says that 801001 hit 137.5mph during testing on Wednesday



http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/10/30/iep-hits-new-speed-record

I assume that they are just checking that 125 + 10% is acheivable, but aren't they supposed to be good for 140 mph in normal service anyway?

 

[notadriver]

If they aren't going to operate at that speed maybe they don't need to be tested at that speed plus 10 percent. I suspect Class 390s and 91s are in a similar position.

 

[Martin222002]

And Bombardier continue to do it at Derby, bolting together bits from all over the UK and Europe for their 'British' trains, same as lots of bits for the 800/801/AT300 trains are being/will be sent from the UK and Europe to Japan or Newton Aycliffe for final assembly into the trains.

This is a sterile and pointless argument - the days of every last part of a train being manufactured on the same site or with components from the same country are long gone.

On a more positive note, the Rail website says that 801001 hit 137.5mph during testing on Wednesday



http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/10/30/iep-hits-new-speed-record

A bit of a typo on RAILs part, as that should be 800101.

 

[jimm]

If they aren't going to operate at that speed maybe they don't need to be tested at that speed plus 10 percent. I suspect Class 390s and 91s are in a similar position.

But is Old Dalby suitable for running at 150mph plus anyway?

When the APT-E hit 152.3mph in 1975, that was done between Swindon and Reading, so that may be a more likely place to try for 140 plus 10 per cent, especially as it will be equipped with brand new catenary specifically designed with regular 140mph operation in mind.

The ECML is another option but that would presumably require fettling work on the catenary north of Peterborough, assuming Stoke Bank were to be chosen for such purposes once again.

 

[Stats]

I read elsewhere that 155mph testing will be done on HS1 during an overnight possession.

 

[Goldfish62]

Let the Sticker Factory (and seat installation) commence!

That said, Bombardier did the same with using Procers former Wakefield Works to fit the Voyagers out, to the bodyshells from Bruges.

And way back in the late 90s Alstom did the same at Birmingham with Juniper bodyshells shipped from Barcelona. It's nothing new.

 

[najaB]

I read elsewhere that 155mph testing will be done on HS1 during an overnight possession.

I thought it had been posted up-thread (or in another one) that testing on HS1 won't happen due to the different signalling and OHLE design?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I thought it had been posted up-thread (or in another one) that testing on HS1 won't happen due to the different signalling and OHLE design?

It could be done during a possession but not during normal service, though overspeed testing wouldn't be done today without a full possession including blocks on adjacent lines.

It has its benefits, but we will need, at some point, testing at 140mph and ideally 155mph using Series 1 OLE as we won't have all the pantograph/OLE interface measurements from runs on the higher tensioned HS1 line.

 

[JN114]

Forgive me for playing devil's advocate but is this 110% testing requirement actually a thing now? I don't recall any of the early-2000s build stock (Electrostars, Junipers, Voyagers, Adelantes etc) ever being put through it...