GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

[Wyrleybart]

It's all gone very quiet .... Is the Greenford battery trial still happening - are any timescales known?

I doubt any timescales are known yet. So my own view is 230001 is going back or gone back to Long Marston where it needs to finish it's certification which was being done at Bletchley prior to Vivarail going into administration.

There was talk in another forum of a load of Vivarail fast charge equipment being stuck in a container in Spain a couple of months ago, which I guessing is for installation at West Ealing. I also imagine some kit will need to now be installed at Reading depot, seeing as that is to become 230001's maintenance base. Presumably, once 230001 is fully tested , certified and ready to go into operation, it will move to Reading for staff and crew training, thence to West Ealing to prove the fast charge equipment. I imagine there has to be a tie up between GWR and Network Rail over the infrastructure changes.

That is all guesswork on my part but I am intrigued to know how 230001 was to be maintained and repaired, before GWR got involved after Vivarail went into administration. There was talk of the Plasser & Theurer depot from what I remember.

 

[TurboMan]

It's all gone very quiet .... Is the Greenford battery trial still happening - are any timescales known?

The trial is still on. 230001 is now at Long Marston having been moved by road from Bletchley for further testing on the fast charge equipment which was interrupted firstly by Vivarail going into administration, then by the need to vacate Bletchley depot.

Current plan is to move the unit to Reading/West Ealing in September, with the fast charge trial beginning in January, although there will be some testing/training activities on the Greenford branch prior to January with the unit being trickle charged overnight at West Ealing LMD if the fast charge equipment has yet to be commissioned.

Maintenance will be at West Ealing LMD with occasional trips back to Reading. Using the Plasser depot is no longer on the cards.

All subject to change, of course.

 

[Roger B]

The trial is still on. 230001 is now at Long Marston having been moved by road from Bletchley for further testing on the fast charge equipment which was interrupted firstly by Vivarail going into administration, then by the need to vacate Bletchley depot.

Current plan is to move the unit to Reading/West Ealing in September, with the fast charge trial beginning in January, although there will be some testing/training activities on the Greenford branch prior to January with the unit being trickle charged overnight at West Ealing LMD if the fast charge equipment has yet to be commissioned.

Maintenance will be at West Ealing LMD with occasional trips back to Reading. Using the Plasser depot is no longer on the cards.

All subject to change, of course.

Many thanks TurboMan and Wryleybart - really appreciate your updates.
Looking forward to seeing it on the trials in January.

 

[12LDA28C]

Industry rumours suggest that the ex-Marston Vale 230s are heading to the IOW to supplement the 484s, have GWR sold them on to SWR or are they breaking them for parts to assist in keeping the 484s in service?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Industry rumours suggest that the ex-Marston Vale 230s are heading to the IOW to supplement the 484s, have GWR sold them on to SWR or are they breaking them for parts to assist in keeping the 484s in service?

Wouldn’t be a bad idea I suppose. It’d be nice if they went for the full conversion and put more 4 cars into service in summer.

 

[Benjwri]

have GWR sold them on to SWR

GWR never bought them, the ones on Marston Vale weren't a part of GWR's purchase.

 

[FGW_DID]

GWR never bought them, the ones on Marston Vale weren't a part of GWR's purchase.

Thats what prompted the start of this thread, as per post #1. We (at the depot) were told to expect the arrival of the ex WMT 3x 2 car Class 230. Perhaps plans have changed. That’s way above my pay grade!

 

[12LDA28C]

GWR never bought them, the ones on Marston Vale weren't a part of GWR's purchase.

I understand they are now owned by GWR and are being prepared for movement from Bletchley by road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2023 ==

Thats what prompted the start of this thread, as per post #1. We (at the depot) were told to expect the arrival of the ex WMT 3x 2 car Class 230. Perhaps plans have changed. That’s way above my pay grade!

I believe Mark Hopwood has confirmed GWR has bought them although it seems the IOW will be the final destination in one way or another

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

it seems the IOW will be the final destination in one way or another

Didn’t you just say that was down to industry rumours though?

 

[Invincible]

I understand they are now owned by GWR and are being prepared for movement from Bletchley by road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2023 ==



I believe Mark Hopwood has confirmed GWR has bought them although it seems the IOW will be the final destination in one way or another

Although SWR and GWR are separate trading companies, they are "sister" companies due to First group shareholding?
If there are no other uses for the 3 230s they would be useful spares diners for the Island line trains?

 

[12LDA28C]

Didn’t you just say that was down to industry rumours though?

From Mark Hopwood by all accounts although I've seen no official announcement as yet

 

[D365]

Industry rumours suggest that the ex-Marston Vale 230s are heading to the IOW to supplement the 484s, have GWR sold them on to SWR or are they breaking them for parts to assist in keeping the 484s in service?

Wouldn’t be a bad idea I suppose. It’d be nice if they went for the full conversion and put more 4 cars into service in summer.

Does Ryde have the siding space to maintain three additional units? Bearing in mind that the D Stock cars are longer than the former tube trains.

 

[Woods]

Just to put a few rumours to bed, because I think there may have been some crossed wires:

• The three ex-WMT Class 230 units (230003 to 230005) have been purchased by GWR, as a separate (and slightly later) deal to the purchase of the Vivarail assets and intellectual property etc. Preparations are being made to take them from Bletchley and put them into 'warm store' at Reading TMD. They will most likely get converted to battery trains as per 230001 in the fullness of time for use on other GWR branch lines, most likely in the Thames Valley. A galling waste from the point of view of Marston Vale line users, of course, who should be rightly angry that WMT couldn't be bothered to keep them going, but good for GWR.
• As part of the administration of Vivarail, SWR have purchased 6 x D78 'donor' vehicles (DM cars) from the pile of them stored at Long Marston, for use as a source of spare parts, the most valuable parts being the bogies. It's worth saying that SWR were always going to buy six cars, even as part of the original deal with Vivarail. There are no plans to create more Class 484s, as far as I'm aware, and these vehicles will not be stored on the island.
• As part of the administration of Vivarail, TfW have purchased 8 x D78 'donor' vehicles (4 x DM cars and 4 x Trailer car) from the pile of them stored at Long Marston, again as a source of spare parts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2023 ==

I think there’s a big difference between “ordering” 67 carriages, and picking up for (presumably) something approaching scrap value, vehicles which if the trial is successful can be used.

There was I would guess a “now or never” opportunity to take them, else the administrators would have disposed of them in the process of winding up the company. The cost will have been minimal and in the grand scheme of things, loose change.

If the trial is a success, it will be a lot easier to persuade HM Treasury to release the purse strings to bring more into service than it would be for a new build of units, and the timescales much more rapid too given the need to go to tender for new stock.

Correct. GWR picked up 67 x D78 vehicles for scrap value. Had they not done so, all the remaining D78 cars would have been scrapped and that would have prevented, forever, the possibility of building more battery Class 230s. Therefore the trial of 230001 on the Greenford branch would have been of limited value. It is, as you say, a very far cry from 'ordering' 67 more Class 230 vehicles!

Precisely because of the long-running reliability troubles which plagued and still continue to plague the WMT and TfW Class 230s respectively, and because the Fast Charging technology is entirely new to the rail industry, a much more cautious approach is being taken by GWR towards the introduction of its one battery train (230001). The trial itself will last for at least a year, the service will be built up gradually, and the train will be shadowed by a Class 165 at all times to cover for failures. I am sure that GWR won't be rushing into any decision to build more of them, until 230001 has got some very considerable reliable mileage under its belt and the charging system is 'proven'. This is exactly how innovation should be done, it's good to push the boundaries, but not so good to rush it (as Vivarail found out, ultimately to their fatal detriment).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2023 ==

I could ask you the same thing. You know as much about me as I do about you.
But as I’ll say below, I’m going off what I’ve seen so far.

Of course not, although I can see why you’d think that from my admittedly unwise choice of wording. I don’t like to see wasted money, wasted time and ultimately disruption to passenger services, of which at least one if not all have befallen to
- the woeful 769 flex conversion which produced shoddy awful trains about to leave the scene imminently
- the 799 “Hydroflex” which in the end went nowhere despite two attempts,
- the 314 conversion which has now been scrapped
- 230 round 1 on LNR which was so pioneering and unique that no one could maintain it after the owners went bust, leaving a line without service for a year
- 230 round 2 on TfW which has continued to be delayed due to technical issues and are still not very reliable at all (for that I’ll allow they’re only new to service, but have taken enormous time to actually get into service and two aren’t reliable enough to be operational yet)
- 321 conversion to Breeze 600s which haven’t really gone anywhere
- Enough said about the new lease of life for the 442s

Trialing one on the Greenford branch is all very well, but ordering 67 more carriages before this trial has even commenced is really counting chickens before they’ve hatched in a rather alarming way.

Please understand I don’t just say things for the fun of being miserable and cynical I haven’t seen a successful conversion project of old stock apart from perhaps the one that replaced 70 year old tiny trains that also came from the tube, and I’m not thrilled by the prospect of yet more customers being messed around by more of these projects, especially when there were talks of a tender from a brand new fleet. Anyway, getting a recycled train approaching its 50s instead of a brand new fleet - which HSS and electrified Thames Valley did also just get - is not great at all.
If these recycled trains give sterling service, I’ll apologise for ever doubting them.

I don't think that it's quite fair to lump all of those projects listed above into the 'doomed to fail' category. Not all of them failed because of the technology or inadequancies of the 'implementation' as such.

For example:

• 321 conversion to Breeze was only ever a concept on the drawing board; 'flying a kite' you might say. They have probably realised by now that hydrogen trains are a very expensive and inefficient way of using electricity
• 442 project was terminated, if I've understood correctly, by DfT franchising policy ending up with an all-new fleet of trains being procured instead (the 701s). Now 4 years late and many still lying dormant in glorious isolation at Long Marston! Or something like that. Forgive me I don't really know the ins and outs of that one.
• 799 Hydroflex Mk1 and Mk2, both essentially long-term job creation schemes for academics, Porterbrook engineers and consultants (in my view) and "oh look aren't we innovative" publicity machine for Porterbrook. One of the Hydroflexes was of course demonstrated at COP26 not actually running on hydrogen at all, it was running off the OHLE! See also my comments on Breeze above.
• Class 314 hydrogen train - see previous comments on Breeze and Hydroflex. I mean how many hydrogen demonstrator trains do we need in this country, when Alstom have already built a fleet of iLints in Germany? Nonetheless I will concede that this one appears to have been successful in terms of project delivery; it worked and was delivered on budget and on time, as far as I'm aware. But is now abandoned, so that was worth it?....well I'm sure some nice academic papers were written about it.

Yeah but ok the 769 project has been pretty disasterous all round, I will admit.

 

[800 Driver]

It's all gone very quiet .... Is the Greenford battery trial still happening - are any timescales known?

Yes. Unlike the 769s (which everyone at GWR loathed and wanted to fail (except Hopwood) some people are genuinely excited by the 230s (I'd say a 50/50 split with the pessimist faction, who won't accept anything less than Stadlers). Hearing there are major issues with the fast charging, which isn't delivering anywhere near what it says on the tin. So unless that's sorted, Hopwood has once again bought a lot of scrap for more than it's scrap value. For the avoidance of doubt I'm in the pessimist faction. GWR also about to waste a fortune upgrading the 57 fleet. Management fast turning the Great Western into a heritage line

 

[Benjwri]

So unless that's sorted, Hopwood has once again bought a lot of scrap for more than it's scrap value. For the avoidance of doubt I'm in the pessimist faction. GWR also about to waste a fortune upgrading the 57 fleet. Management fast turning the Great Western into a heritage line

The fast charging technology was always a gamble, and it wasn’t bought by the DfT (or that’s where the money eventually comes from) wasn’t it? The scrap trains that have been bought were bought for scrap value.

 

[TurboMan]

Hearing there are major issues with the fast charging, which isn't delivering anywhere near what it says on the tin.

I don't know what you're basing such a claim on, given that the trial hasn't even started yet.

 

[800 Driver]

I don't know what you're basing such a claim on, given that the trial hasn't even started yet.

Gossip from fleet. Hence why I said 'hearing there are' rather than 'there are.' Happy to be corrected if not true.

 

[TurboMan]

Gossip from fleet. Hence why I said 'hearing there are' rather than 'there are.' Happy to be corrected if not true.

It's not true. Neither is your comment about everyone loathing 769s and wanting them to fail.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

which everyone at GWR loathed and wanted to fail

How kind of them, to not only their customers but themselves, seeing how overcrowded the current services they have to work in the West are. The rest of the 3-165s, displaced, would have been a welcome relief, so wishing that is only wishing to cut off their nose to spite their face.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2023 ==

It's not true. Neither is your comment about everyone loathing 769s and wanting them to fail.

Yes I was rather thinking that surely plenty of GWR on-board staff would have greatly appreciated the consequential increase in carriages in the West!

 

[Woods]

It's not true. Neither is your comment about everyone loathing 769s and wanting them to fail.

Indeed. Whatever rumours there are, are completely unfounded. Testing so far has indicated that the charging rates seen during initial testing of the system at Bletchley are exactly as expected. It is true that the system to be deployed at West Ealing is not the 'full fat' system which can charge at up to 1000A, but it doesn't need to be for that application. It can be scaled up for other branch lines at a later date.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2023 ==

Gossip from fleet. Hence why I said 'hearing there are' rather than 'there are.' Happy to be corrected if not true.

Would suggest that people ought to check their facts before spreading unfounded gossip.

 

[800 Driver]

It's not true. Neither is your comment about everyone loathing 769s and wanting them to fail.

Totally stand by the 769 comment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2023 ==

How kind of them, to not only their customers but themselves, seeing how overcrowded the current services they have to work in the West are. The rest of the 3-165s, displaced, would have been a welcome relief, so wishing that is only wishing to cut off their nose to spite their face.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2023 ==

They didn't work and would have decimated reliability, leading to loads of short notice cancellations and inconvenience for passengers. Most employees have customers best interests at heart. 769s are trash

 

[TurboMan]

Totally stand by the 769 comment.

You're still wrong. To suggest that everyone at GWR except Mark Hopwood loathed 769s and wanted them to fail is just nonsense. But you've already made it clear that you take gossip and rumour at face value, particularly if it's negative, so it's no surprise that you hold that opinion.

Meanwhile, those close to the 769 project were all optimistic that introduction to service was very close when the plug was pulled (for budgetary reasons). A lot of work from a lot of very talented people had gone into addressing the numerous challenges that they faced when the 769s first arrived, and the feeling was very positive. Dealing with the negativity from the gossips who had never been near a 769 was probably the biggest remaining challenge to overcome.

But this is a thread about 230s so I'll leave that there.

 

[43096]

You're still wrong. To suggest that everyone at GWR except Mark Hopwood loathed 769s and wanted them to fail is just nonsense. But you've already made it clear that you take gossip and rumour at face value, particularly if it's negative, so it's no surprise that you hold that opinion.

Meanwhile, those close to the 769 project were all optimistic that introduction to service was very close when the plug was pulled (for budgetary reasons). A lot of work from a lot of very talented people had gone into addressing the numerous challenges that they faced when the 769s first arrived, and the feeling was very positive. Dealing with the negativity from the gossips who had never been near a 769 was probably the biggest remaining challenge to overcome.

But this is a thread about 230s so I'll leave that there.

I suspect you can copy and paste that post just with 230 in place of 769.

 

[Mollman]

GWR also about to waste a fortune upgrading the 57 fleet.

Sorry to go off topic but interested in what you think the alternative would be? I don't think there are any spare 68s I am not sure about 67s but would think GWR would have explored that option - you will know better than me on that being on the inside.

 

[FGW_DID]

A bit later than originally intended but the 3x ex WMT Class 230 units are expected to be delivered (by road) to Reading TCD by the 13th July 23.

 

[The_Train]

A bit later than originally intended but the 3x ex WMT Class 230 units are expected to be delivered (by road) to Reading TCD by the 13th July 23.

Thanks for the update - are they all carrying the Marston Vale livery still for now?

 

[Bumpkin]

Thanks for the update - are they all carrying the Marston Vale livery still for now?

In a now since closed thread this image of a 230 in full GWR green was seen at Bletchley TMD

Class 230 Bletchley TMD

 

[SuperLuke2334]

In a now since closed thread this image of a 230 in full GWR green was seen at Bletchley TMD

Class 230 Bletchley TMD

That's 230001, we're talking about 003-005, the ex Marston Vale ones.

 

[12LDA28C]

In a now since closed thread this image of a 230 in full GWR green was seen at Bletchley TMD

Class 230 Bletchley TMD

That is the GWR unit intended for testing on the Greenford branch, not one of the ex-WMT units.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

VivaRails administrators have provided a progress report confirming that GWR has purchased the Marston Vale Units for the princely sum of £60k deemed to be the scrap value. The leasing company had them in the books for £3.3m. TfW must be crying in their milk having expended £30m on their 230's.

GWR acquired 230001, the intellectual property, plant and stored unconverted vehicles for £1.4m.

As usual the only winner in these cases are the administrators who now expect to receive £0.9m.

Other interesting observation is that Strukton Rail had commenced legal proceedings against VivaRail for £15m reasons aren't explained but Strukton Rail were owed 1.3m when administrators were appointed but looks like the administration will terminate proceedings.

All in all a sad ending for the vision here but maybe GWR will keep the vision alive although i can't see any further D78's being converted this is now about proof of concept for battery and fast charge system. Im also surmising that DfT have approved expenditure so they can get a photo op to say they are working on solutions to decarbonise rail.