GWR Cascade Delayed!

[158722]

I take it you mean 143s, as that's the only type of Pacer GWR operates. The 150/0s will most likely be going west the instant that some emus start working inner suburban jobs in the Thames Valley and ease the pressure on the Turbo fleet. And class 387s will displace plenty of Turbos once they can operate at least as far as Didcot.

Next year, the Paddington-Greenford turns are meant to be replaced by a new 387-operated Paddington to Hayes & Harlington service, connecting with a 165-operated shuttle to Greenford. Looking at the existing timetable, the Greenfords are xx15/45 from Padd to Greenford at xx39/09 then xx46/16 return to Pass at xx12/42. That 3 min turnaround at Padd, suggests to me that essentially 3 165s are occupied on these services. Once the 387s start operating, the 10 min in each direction West Ealing to Greenford shuttle can be covered by a single 165, thus releasing 2 165s for use elsewhere - either to head west for training, etc or to release the 2x 150/0s from the Reading-Basingstokes.

 

[JN114]

Next year, the Paddington-Greenford turns are meant to be replaced by a new 387-operated Paddington to Hayes & Harlington service, connecting with a 165-operated shuttle to Greenford. Looking at the existing timetable, the Greenfords are xx15/45 from Padd to Greenford at xx39/09 then xx46/16 return to Pass at xx12/42. That 3 min turnaround at Padd, suggests to me that essentially 3 165s are occupied on these services. Once the 387s start operating, the 10 min in each direction West Ealing to Greenford shuttle can be covered by a single 165, thus releasing 2 165s for use elsewhere - either to head west for training, etc or to release the 2x 150/0s from the Reading-Basingstokes.

Greenfords are currently 2 diagrams - come up from Reading in the small hours (one on a service train, 1 ECS) - then couple up together ~2130 to work a service train to Reading when the branch shuts.

That turnaround may not be workable with the much longer 4 car units from next year, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Hayes shuttle went to 3 diagrams with a slight re-hash of the timings.

 

[158722]

Greenfords are currently 2 diagrams - come up from Reading in the small hours (one on a service train, 1 ECS) - then couple up together ~2130 to work a service train to Reading when the branch shuts.

That turnaround may not be workable with the much longer 4 car units from next year, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Hayes shuttle went to 3 diagrams with a slight re-hash of the timings.

Same two units all day on the branch? Really surprised with that 3min turnaround at somewhere as busy as Padd. So just 1 165 released...

 

[edwin_m]

Another uncertainty is the 2020 accessibility modifications deadline. IC125s will be needed on the MML and probably some on the GWML for a few years after 2020 but with no obvious further use afterwards. I can't see it being cost-effective to do major work for a life extension of less than five years so it's quite likely that there will be a derogation from the more difficult mods provided the trains concerned are modified or scrapped before say 2025.

This wouldn't affect the HSTs going to Scotland which would still have the full set of mods for a longer remaining life. But there might be a temptation to sneak a few Pacers and 153s through a similar derogation process at the same time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although we don't need to know the end date before improvements could start to happen. Also even with firm dates for wiring routes there is still a of possible options for the released stock and a lot for us to discuss here until it is all finished.

Nevertheless, no matter how much discussion occurs, (and much of it will repeat what has already been said in this thread), the specific question posed by Rapidash cannot be answered with an absolute date.

 

[jimm]

Another uncertainty is the 2020 accessibility modifications deadline. IC125s will be needed on the MML and probably some on the GWML for a few years after 2020 but with no obvious further use afterwards. I can't see it being cost-effective to do major work for a life extension of less than five years so it's quite likely that there will be a derogation from the more difficult mods provided the trains concerned are modified or scrapped before say 2025.

This wouldn't affect the HSTs going to Scotland which would still have the full set of mods for a longer remaining life. But there might be a temptation to sneak a few Pacers and 153s through a similar derogation process at the same time.

I think GWR will be moving heaven and earth to be shot of HSTs before the deadline. The full 800/801 and AT300 fleets should all be in service by the end of 2018 anyway, so even if Swansea is still off the juice there should be enough bi-modes of one sort or another to cover the service west of Cardiff, especially if some or all of the 801s end up bi-modes as well. A few HSTs may linger on into 2019 to help out with Oxford fasts until the wires get there at some point that year.

 

[edwin_m]

I think GWR will be moving heaven and earth to be shot of HSTs before the deadline. The full 800/801 and AT300 fleets should all be in service by the end of 2018 anyway, so even if Swansea is still off the juice there should be enough bi-modes of one sort or another to cover the service west of Cardiff, especially if some or all of the 801s end up bi-modes as well. A few HSTs may linger on into 2019 to help out with Oxford fasts until the wires get there at some point that year.

But when is Temple Meads going to be electrified? There's a big re-modelling and re-signalling to be finished first, which as far as I know has hardly started. Until TM is done then all Bristol as well as Swansea trains will have to be bi-modes or HSTs, and even the Cardiffs are problematic as the preference would be to base those at the depot in Swansea. So fitting of diesels to the 801s is pretty much a certainty.

 

[The Ham]

Nevertheless, no matter how much discussion occurs, (and much of it will repeat what has already been said in this thread), the specific question posed by Rapidash cannot be answered with an absolute date.

True, but then nor does Rapidash necessarily need to wait until everything is done before they see improvements to their services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But when is Temple Meads going to be electrified? There's a big re-modelling and re-signalling to be finished first, which as far as I know has hardly started. Until TM is done then all Bristol as well as Swansea trains will have to be bi-modes or HSTs, and even the Cardiffs are problematic as the preference would be to base those at the depot in Swansea. So fitting of diesels to the 801s is pretty much a certainty.

801's will have a limp home facility, meaning that if TM is a problem for a short time they could always use that to cover the missing gap if it were short enough.

Cardiff could, with a bit of cleaver planning only see 800's for the first/last trains of the day so that the 801's can go to a depot elsewhere.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

But when is Temple Meads going to be electrified? There's a big re-modelling and re-signalling to be finished first, which as far as I know has hardly started. Until TM is done then all Bristol as well as Swansea trains will have to be bi-modes or HSTs, and even the Cardiffs are problematic as the preference would be to base those at the depot in Swansea. So fitting of diesels to the 801s is pretty much a certainty.

Wiring Brizzle TM is easy, getting permission to do it will be an absolute nightmare. The longer it takes, the more pressure Historic England will be under not to screw with the GWep, so in some ways, the delay might not be a bad thing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wiring Brizzle TM is easy, getting permission to do it will be an absolute nightmare. The longer it takes, the more pressure Historic England will be under not to screw with the GWep, so in some ways, the delay might not be a bad thing.

Could they get away with wiring a few remote platforms initially, on the south side away from the heritage sections?
There won't be many electric workings until the wires extend further west or north, and no depots to reach other than Filton.
Four platforms should be enough.

 

[RobShipway]

Apologies as I know this has been asked before, but would it not be better for the AT300's to be built after the Class 800's and the class 801's built after that point given the situation?

The class 801's that are built initially could still replace the class 225 sets on the ECML, rather than going to GWR?

Also, given the fact that there was issues with the OHLE up to the point of Airport junction today with just the Heathrow Express & Connect trains, is the OHLE going to be able to cope with the Class 800/801's using the wires as well?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Apologies as I know this has been asked before, but would it not be better for the AT300's to be built after the Class 800's and the class 801's built after that point given the situation?

The class 801's that are built initially could still replace the class 225 sets on the ECML, rather than going to GWR?

Also, given the fact that there was issues with the OHLE up to the point of Airport junction today with just the Heathrow Express & Connect trains, is the OHLE going to be able to cope with the Class 800/801's using the wires as well?

If you know it has been asked before, why are you asking the same question again ?

The build and delivery of Class 800, Class 801 and AT300 (Class 802) sets is dictated by contractual agreements. Variation of the IEP order is being reviewed but nothing has been signed as yet, and is complicated by existing lease agreements VTEC have on their HST and IC225 fleets, which will incur a financial penalty if they're terminated early to make way for early introduction of IEP. Delivery and build of all Hitachi products is determined by production line availability in the UK and Japan, with the AT300 order coming from Japan and not Newton Aycliffe.

The OLE question is just downright stupid. No, nobody has bothered to check whether or not the existing OLE can cope with IEP, and it's just a figment of my imagination that CrossRail has been re-wiring the route between Airport Junction and Paddington with new Series 1 OLE.

 

[RobShipway]

If you know it has been asked before, why are you asking the same question again ?

The build and delivery of Class 800, Class 801 and AT300 (Class 802) sets is dictated by contractual agreements. Variation of the IEP order is being reviewed but nothing has been signed as yet, and is complicated by existing lease agreements VTEC have on their HST and IC225 fleets, which will incur a financial penalty if they're terminated early to make way for early introduction of IEP. Delivery and build of all Hitachi products is determined by production line availability in the UK and Japan, with the AT300 order coming from Japan and not Newton Aycliffe.

The OLE question is just downright stupid. No, nobody has bothered to check whether or not the existing OLE can cope with IEP, and it's just a figment of my imagination that CrossRail has been re-wiring the route between Airport Junction and Paddington with new Series 1 OLE.

Okay, apologies for making your day worse for asking a few really stupid questions that I really should have know the answer to from my crystal ball...

 

[edwin_m]

Wiring Brizzle TM is easy, getting permission to do it will be an absolute nightmare. The longer it takes, the more pressure Historic England will be under not to screw with the GWep, so in some ways, the delay might not be a bad thing.

Wiring might be easy, but I imagine re-signalling would be difficult, and unless the existing signalling is immune it would have to be replaced first.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Wiring might be easy, but I imagine re-signalling would be difficult, and unless the existing signalling is immune it would have to be replaced first.

There's talk of layout changes too, but I'm not up to speed on what they're wanting this week, or going to be allowed/given money for. Maybe higher speed approaches and tidying up the S&Cs ?

 

[D365]

Okay, apologies for making your day worse for asking a few really stupid questions that I really should have know the answer to from my crystal ball...

It's nothing to do with prophecies. The people in charge know far more than you would ever care to think.

 

[CP165]

CrossRail has been re-wiring the route between Airport Junction and Paddington with new Series 1 OLE.

Are they re-wiring the whole section/Is all the old equipment being replaced with series 1?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Are they re-wiring the whole section/Is all the old equipment being replaced with series 1?

Not all, no. Headspans are being replaced in places, as part of the big Network Rail push for mechanically independent registration.

It's all detailed in the Crossrail West Inner Track Improvements and the Crossrail Old Oak Common and Paddington Approaches work packages (the latter ties in with IEP works). The Powerlines group have been carrying out the majority of this work.