• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

GWR Broad Gauge

Status
Not open for further replies.

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
17,827
Location
Epsom
why are France abandoning that then and going for wide floor single deck commuter trains?

They're not; they're still building and ordering plenty of double deckers - the Z5600 units on the Melun run are being replaced with new double deckers in about a year from now, the single deck MS61 and MI84 on RER A are being replaced with new double deck MI09 stock right now.

The single deck Z50000 units ( which are probably the best modern stock I have ever been on ) are replacing older single deck trains; they've already seen off the Z6100 out of Nord and are currently replacing the 17000 + stainless steel push pull sets off Est and St Lazare. A further batch is likely to replace the Z6400 off St Lazare.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,276
Cheers

Thing is though, this does not mean that the coaches are wider, it's just that the coaches are a bit longer and so stick out a bit more on corners. Not sure that is "using the wider loading gauge" to it's best effect as platforms have a finite length.

What about.....

(2.9m - 3m) x 20m coaches with walk-through gangways at the end of each?

This would mean comfortable seats plus tons of standing space. Also coaches would be short and therefore would not protrude.

We are the founding fathers of innovation, why are we now restricted to just buying things off the shelf? Where have all our problem solvers gone?

IEP is as bespoke as you can get, yet the only real "innovation" is adding a removable diesel engine, hardly ground-breaking.

Just another make-do and mend british psychological hang-up

Yes, they 'stick out a bit more' precisely because the GW loading gauge allows a 23m coach with a wider body shell than the 'go anywhere' Mk3. But, like I said, it is still nowhere near being on a par with continental loading gauge and it never will be, which is what you would need to have a 3m-wide body to fit in your 'comfortable' 3+2 seating - not that anyone seems keen on building stock with 3+2 seats anyway - LM are reported not to be that thrilled with their recent batch of 3+2 350s, compared with 2+2 versions of the same type, or their 172s.

And I suspect that were new stock to be ordered for GW outer-suburban electrics, though this seems unlikely, then operators would probably go again for a 23m body shell, with the couple of extra rows of seats that would allow. And leasing companies would not be that keen to have short, fat coaches that couldn't go anywhere else on their hands, in case they ever need to shift them on to other work.

It's not all about the body width anyway - you need to take account of things like step boards at the doors, and crew steps on bogies etc. These can also hit things, which is why Turbos that go 'off-piste' for work at places like Ilford have the step boards removed first.

We are stuck with what the Victorians built and short of replacing thousands of bridges and tunnels, rebuilding platforms, etc, etc, at obscene expense when there are better things to spend the money on, there's nothing we can do about it.

IEP isn't all that bespoke, it's based on trains Hitachi builds for the 3ft 6in gauge network in Japan.
 

Blamethrower

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2014
Messages
384
Location
Bedfordshire
Yes, they 'stick out a bit more' precisely because the GW loading gauge allows a 23m coach with a wider body shell than the 'go anywhere' Mk3. But, like I said, it is still nowhere near being on a par with continental loading gauge and it never will be, which is what you would need to have a 3m-wide body to fit in your 'comfortable' 3+2 seating - not that anyone seems keen on building stock with 3+2 seats anyway - LM are reported not to be that thrilled with their recent batch of 3+2 350s, compared with 2+2 versions of the same type, or their 172s.

And I suspect that were new stock to be ordered for GW outer-suburban electrics, though this seems unlikely, then operators would probably go again for a 23m body shell, with the couple of extra rows of seats that would allow. And leasing companies would not be that keen to have short, fat coaches that couldn't go anywhere else on their hands, in case they ever need to shift them on to other work.

It's not all about the body width anyway - you need to take account of things like step boards at the doors, and crew steps on bogies etc. These can also hit things, which is why Turbos that go 'off-piste' for work at places like Ilford have the step boards removed first.

We are stuck with what the Victorians built and short of replacing thousands of bridges and tunnels, rebuilding platforms, etc, etc, at obscene expense when there are better things to spend the money on, there's nothing we can do about it.

IEP isn't all that bespoke, it's based on trains Hitachi builds for the 3ft 6in gauge network in Japan.

I never said it would be on a par with continental loading gauge, jeesus, people on here really love to put words in your mouth don't they?

Also, you fail completely to grasp what I am talking about. Currently 3+2 seating on a 2.8m wide coach is unacceptable as a passenger (just look at the wear on the seats on a 350/2 - no-one sits in the middle), uncomfortable and increases dwell time in stations. A 3m wide coach would allow for seats that are as wide as the 2+2 seats, but will actually be used because they are not too narrow and there would be more space in the interior.

The point is that the same trains are being used on the ECML and GWML and both have coach lengths of 23m. Why when the GWML can accommodate wider trains?

Why mention Ilford? I'm talking about the GWML and the ECML.

Bi-mode trains with removable diesels, that sounds like the very definition of "bespoke" to me. Are they in operation anywhere else in the world? Nice to see that our brand new intercity trains are being modelled on a narrow-gauge network.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They're not; they're still building and ordering plenty of double deckers - the Z5600 units on the Melun run are being replaced with new double deckers in about a year from now, the single deck MS61 and MI84 on RER A are being replaced with new double deck MI09 stock right now.

The single deck Z50000 units ( which are probably the best modern stock I have ever been on ) are replacing older single deck trains; they've already seen off the Z6100 out of Nord and are currently replacing the 17000 + stainless steel push pull sets off Est and St Lazare. A further batch is likely to replace the Z6400 off St Lazare.

I should've said "in some cases"
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,640
Location
Nottingham
The point is that the same trains are being used on the ECML and GWML and both have coach lengths of 23m. Why when the GWML can accommodate wider trains?

Because the GWML can't accommodate wider trains. It can accommodate 23m trains of a width which on other routes is only possible for 20m stock.

The platform setbacks from the track are about the same on the GWML as on other routes - if they were further back the gaps would be too wide when stepping to and from standard width stock. This effectively defines the width of the train, as there is a limit to how much it can usefully 'bulge' out above platform level.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,276
I never said it would be on a par with continental loading gauge, jeesus, people on here really love to put words in your mouth don't they?

Also, you fail completely to grasp what I am talking about. Currently 3+2 seating on a 2.8m wide coach is unacceptable as a passenger (just look at the wear on the seats on a 350/2 - no-one sits in the middle), uncomfortable and increases dwell time in stations. A 3m wide coach would allow for seats that are as wide as the 2+2 seats, but will actually be used because they are not too narrow and there would be more space in the interior.

The point is that the same trains are being used on the ECML and GWML and both have coach lengths of 23m. Why when the GWML can accommodate wider trains?

Why mention Ilford? I'm talking about the GWML and the ECML.

Bi-mode trains with removable diesels, that sounds like the very definition of "bespoke" to me. Are they in operation anywhere else in the world? Nice to see that our brand new intercity trains are being modelled on a narrow-gauge network.

I keep mentioning continental loading gauges, not because you said anything about them, but because having clearances of the kind available on the continent or the US and almost any other part of the world where 4ft 8in track is in use, is the only way you will be able to get a much wider bodyshell to run on British tracks - never the possibility of going double-deck to increase capacity by other means.

As edwin_m points out, the height of platforms here is a serious constraint. However, on the low-platform continent, wide-bodied, low-floor coaches are commonplace these days.

And silly me, I thought you were talking about the body shells of the IEP but apparently we're talking about the engine rafts... how could I have got confused about that? And 3ft 6in is hardly narrow gauge. Look at the size of the trains the Japanese, South Africans and parts of Australia run on it - how? Because they have a proportionally much larger loading gauge.

And the IEP is 26m, not 23m, so the chances are that a bit more remedial work will be needed in places on the ECML to allow them to run there than in GW-land.

If you really want some bespoke GWR roiling stock, which, as I have already said is not something the leasing companies are keen on buying, as they may want to shift it on elsewhere at some point (which is in part why the Class 165/166 bodyshell shrank post-privatisation to become the go-anywhere 168/170/171), then you could always order some of these 18.7m, 2.9m wide (even the GWR didn't dare go for 3m) specials - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_Super_Saloons - just that with that body length you would't be able to get in many seats, even 3+2s, to start with - so be careful what you wish for...
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top