GWR and Grouping

[SquireBev]

Why did the GWR retain its identity in 1923, while the other three Big Four companies adopted new names?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Why did the GWR retain its identity in 1923, while the other three Big Four companies adopted new names?

The GWR formed most of the enlarged group. The next two in size were the Taff Vale and Cambrian. The other three Big Four were amalgamations of Companies more equal in size.

If there had been a desire to maintain competition across much of England, perhaps the Great Central could have been included in the Great Western group and the Midland kept separate or amalgamated with the Southern.

 

[Calthrop]

One has the picture that the whole Grouping scenario could not help being something of a “bodged-up” one. Keeping the old companies’ holdings as they had been, while tacking-together same into a lesser number of bigger undertakings, could not always be done in a smooth and elegant way; whereas splitting up at least some of the old companies between the new, larger entities, would no doubt have been a messy, and variously problem-beset, business.

It’s gathered that in the run-up to Grouping, those in charge pondered various ways of doing the carve-up, before settling for how it eventually took place. The LNER and LMS, as they actually came to be, were geographically / administratively uncomfortably huge and unwieldy. I understand that one possible solution originally contemplated, was a “Big Five” instead of a “Big Four”: with the several Scottish railway companies merged into one, and “LNER / LMS” essentially stopping at the Border – the old companies’ incursions Scotland / England and vice versa, were pretty minimal. This idea finally rejected, because a Scotland-only merged railway company was not seen as potentially viable financially.

The Great Central, because of its geography, would not have fitted with much neatness into any big company into which it was “Grouped”. With things happening as they actually did: there came to be, thanks to the GCR, what strikes me as the delightful battiness of the London & North Eastern Railway’s having trackage in Wales, albeit only at Wales’s very north-easternmost corner.

The notion of a Midland-incorporated-with-Southern-Railway, is an intriguing one – we’re used to the Grouping’s being broadly geography-based, as a “given”; but it needn’t necessarily have ended up thus – and what actually happened, involved (as above) a number of geographical “nonsenses”. One effect of a Midland / Southern merger, would have been the Somerset & Dorset ceasing to be a Joint concern !

 

[MarlowDonkey]

One effect of a Midland / Southern merger, would have been the Somerset & Dorset ceasing to be a Joint concern !

The Midland had fingers in pies all over the country, which was possibly why it liked the "two coach" Sprinter approach to its services.

It also had another tie in with the LSWR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_and_South_Western_Junction_Railway

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was a cartoon published in the press of a jovial GWR porter saying "Never even blew me cap off" - with an explosion cloud in the background marked "The Grouping"

South Wales was very compact - bar some minor , lucrative Midland operations in the Swansea Vale area , and a finger from Abergvenny over the top towards Merthyr and Tredegar. Some minor economies were made , but the big 3 Welsh routes of Rhymney / Taff Vale and Barry folded nicely into the South Wales Division.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It's an interesting comment about the LNER reaching Wales. I grew up in Stafford and I read that until 1930, one could see through trains of LNER, LMS and GWR all reaching the town, something of a key junction.
The LNER had a long and rambling east-west route that started at Grantham, then via Nottingham Victoria, Ilkeston, Derby Friargate, Uttoxeter (via running powers on the N Staffs) and then a branch via Sandon and Stafford Common to bays on the north/east side of the station. There were through trains from Grantham to Stafford!
The GWR ran transfer freights over the Wellington-Market Drayton joint line into Stafford, joining the main LMS lines at the north end of the station directly opposite the LNER junction.

Outside of London, what other towns / cities were directly served by three of the four companies? I can think of Liverpool for starters, if you count the GWR dockside terminal!

 

[30907]

Outside of London, what other towns / cities were directly served by three of the four companies? I can think of Liverpool for starters, if you count the GWR dockside terminal!

Chester and Banbury are the only examples I can think of.

Bath Cheltenham and Oxford had SR locos (and ISTR Oxford saw LNER locos) as well as GWR and LMS. SR stock reached Bristol on local trains.

 

[Calthrop]

The Midland had fingers in pies all over the country, which was possibly why it liked the "two coach" Sprinter approach to its services.

It also had another tie in with the LSWR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_and_South_Western_Junction_Railway

I'm given to understand that post-Grouping, when the Midland & South Western Junction Railway was taken over by the GWR (as made geographical sense); there was some resentment on the part of GWR management, of the M&SWJ's pre-1923 status as a "foreign" interloper in Great Western territory, and an ally of the Midland Railway which had been in competition with the GWR over some routes. In the Grouping era, the GWR did less than they might have done to develop and best serve, the M&SWJ's line. (It did come in very useful in World War II, for freight traffic between the Channel ports and further north.)

The LNER had a long and rambling east-west route that started at Grantham, then via Nottingham Victoria, Ilkeston, Derby Friargate, Uttoxeter (via running powers on the N Staffs) and then a branch via Sandon and Stafford Common to bays on the north/east side of the station. There were through trains from Grantham to Stafford!

This route belonged, pre-Grouping, to the Great Northern Railway --- thus passing in 1923, to the LNER. I understand that in the pre-Grouping era, the GNR offered special cheap fares between Stafford and London Kings Cross via Grantham. One feels that they'd have needed to be cheap indeed -- this would have been a crazily long way round to the capital, in comparison with the LNWR's direct route Stafford -- London.

 

[daodao]

I'm given to understand that post-Grouping, when the Midland & South Western Junction Railway was taken over by the GWR (as made geographical sense); there was some resentment on the part of GWR management, of the M&SWJ's pre-1923 status as a "foreign" interloper in Great Western territory, and an ally of the Midland Railway which had been in competition with the GWR over some routes. In the Grouping era, the GWR did less than they might have done to develop and best serve, the M&SWJ's line. (It did come in very useful in World War II, for freight traffic between the Channel ports and further north.)



This route belonged, pre-Grouping, to the Great Northern Railway --- thus passing in 1923, to the LNER. I understand that in the pre-Grouping era, the GNR offered special cheap fares between Stafford and London Kings Cross via Grantham. One feels that they'd have needed to be cheap indeed -- this would have been a crazily long way round to the capital, in comparison with the LNWR's direct route Stafford -- London.

The GNR had tentacles elsewhere. Pre-WW1, they ran a daily restaurant car express from M/c (London Rd) to King's X, taking only 4h 3m in the down direction (just 3h exactly to Sheffield).

 

[Calthrop]

The GNR had tentacles elsewhere. Pre-WW1, they ran a daily restaurant car express from M/c (London Rd) to King's X, taking only 4h 3m in the down direction (just 3h exactly to Sheffield).

Presumably, running powers over GCR Manchester – Sheffield – Retford?

A bit of the GNR’s “tentacular” tendency which I’ve always loved, was its network largely in (to my mind rather unlikely-seeming) joint partnership with the LNWR, running through the rural back-of-beyond north-south from Market Harborough to Newark, with offshoots (parts of this whole lot, “joint”; parts GNR-only): including a branch (purely GN) from the Marefield Junctions in the very middle of nowhere, westward to Leicester (Belgrave Road). Said mini-system was served by slow local trains running on various routes between relatively major population centres / junctions. This lot came to an end for regular passenger, in the early 1950s (freight lasted for about a decade more); except for IMO the craziest bit of all, the GNR’s service between Peterborough (North) and Leicester (Belgrave Road): reaching by the Fletton loop, the LNWR’s Peterborough – Rugby line – following same per running powers, to Drayton Junction a few miles short of Market Harborough; turning north there, along the connecting line to the “joint” route at Hallaton Junction; following the “joint” to Marefield South Junction, whence west along the branch, to terminate at Leicester. This – and no doubt with many intermediate stops to boot – would seem an insanely indirect way to link Peterborough and Leicester (not that the Midland Railway route via Oakham, is anything of a “beeline”). I gather that this was the GNR’s last passenger service on which Stirling “8-Foot Single” 4-2-2 locos were used; and that it was withdrawn in 1916 as a World War I economy measure, and never reinstated.

(I enjoy fantasising about the Kaiser villainously twirling his moustaches, and declaiming: “Donner und Blitzen ! From now on der Engländer Schweinhunds kann von Peterborough nach Leicester only über Oakham travel ! That vill teach them to take on me, der Allerhöchst !”)

 

[Senex]

Presumably, running powers over GCR Manchester – Sheffield – Retford?

Yes, and it was a service with a very long history.

As to the Great Western, am I not correct in thinking that the Great Western simply absorbed the other companies in its group and retained its own legal identity through the process, whilst in the case of the other three a new company was formed which absorbed all the companies in its group? Thus only the GWR could claim an unbroken history back to its original incorporation.

 

[Taunton]

Regarding oddball "tentacles", sometimes known as "penetrating lines", their principal advantage was generally for competitive freight rather than passenger service,

The Midland were indeed top of the tree here, for they offered direct freight service from London to Birmingham (via Leicester), Bristol (same way), Liverpool (via the CLC), Cambridge (via Kettering) etc. The main advantage buying the LT&S in 1912 offered them was not so much the suburban passenger service as freight from Tilbury Docks, from where they could offer through service to much of the country. Their share of the S&D likewise contributed not much passenger revenue, but direct interchange with the L&SW for Midlands coal to the South Coast and South-West (the S&D carried far more freight down to the Templecombe interchange than beyond). Their equally odd line beyond Hereford to Brecon meant they could get South Wales coal traffic from the independent Welsh companies they linked to. I'll bet they had their eyes on the M&SWJR as another joint operation with the L&SW before the grouping.

The Great Northern westward tentacle from Grantham enabled them to pick up a lot of the beer traffic from Burton-on-Trent. They also carried a lot to Liverpool and Manchester, given their share of the CLC which had enabled them to get running powers over the MS&L from Retford, which the later extension as the GC to London doubtless made them regret.

 

[SquireBev]

London to Bristol via Leicester sounds a bit unwieldy...

 

[Taunton]

It was probably a sight quicker for freight to route that way than be pushed into an exchange siding at Acton and have the delays handing across from one company to another. Plus all the revenue the Midland freight agent had managed to secure at Tilbury went to his company, instead of most being transferred via the Railway Clearing House to the GWR when receipts were divided on a mileage basis. Freight charges to the customer were based on the shortest route, but the percentage division of this was based on the actual mileage it took through transfer points. So if it was £10 for a wagonload from Tilbury to Bristol, far better that the Midland kept it all, rather than having to give £8 of it to the GWR, even if they did have to haul it round via Leicester and Birmingham.

 

[Calthrop]

London to Bristol via Leicester sounds a bit unwieldy...

After Grouping, with the Stratford-on-Avon & Midland Junction Railway taken into the LMS: said LMS could, and did, improve on the Midland's above feat -- running long-distance freight between London and Bristol / Avonmouth, as follows. London to Bedford, thence along the Northampton line to Ravenstone Wood Junction; "turn left" there onto the ex-SMJ line to Towcester (freight-only for almost the whole of its existence); then along ex-SMJ "main line" to Stratford and beyond; via Broom south curve, onto the ex-Midland Barnt Green -- Ashchurch loop; join the Birmingham -- Bristol main line at Ashchurch. A ploy which has always struck me as wonderfully ingenious and / or mad !

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Had an enjoyable aftrnoon reading through the Midland Railway Goods Liasion Traffic files at Kew - (looking for Midland in South Wales material) - they would do anything to take traffic off the GWR towards the Midlands and London - even offering very cheap rates for transit via Brecon / Hay and Worcester to the Metropolis.) - partly succesful for non perishable traffics , but the trial load of fish from Swansea sent this way in 1876 probably ended up as catfood.

 

[Taunton]

Long ago I heard an old GWR joke about how the Midland tried to take coal traffic off the GWR Severn Tunnel route.

Port Talbot to Ilfracombe. Via the Neath & Brecon connection, then Midland via Hereford, Worcester, Gloucester, Bath, Templecombe, onto the LSWR, Exeter, and to Ilfracombe.

Now Ilfracombe and Port Talbot are in sight of one another on a good day, but the overall journey must have been over 200 miles.

 

[The Crab]

Birkenhead was also served by the LMS, LNER and GWR.

 

[krus_aragon]

Yes, and it was a service with a very long history.

As to the Great Western, am I not correct in thinking that the Great Western simply absorbed the other companies in its group and retained its own legal identity through the process, whilst in the case of the other three a new company was formed which absorbed all the companies in its group? Thus only the GWR could claim an unbroken history back to its original incorporation.

The GWR's original intention was just that, to absorb the other railways of the area as subsiduary companies. The likes of the Taff Vale, Rhumney, Barry and Cardiff Railway objected vehemently, as despite having low route mileage, they were making money hand over fist in the South Wales coalfields. The GWR relented and accepted they would be constituent companies (and thus each nominating one director to the board of the new expanded GWR, IIRC).

The Railways Act (1921) makes special note that for the Western group the Great Western Railway would be the amalgamating company, and the GWR Company need not be wound up. The other groups follow the general scheme of "incorporating a company under an appropriate name", and winding up all the constituents. So in that regard, yes, the GWR was the only (large) company to maintain its identity throughout.

That then begs the question of why the act gave such special treatment to the GWR... any historians care to chip in?

 

[TheEdge]

That then begs the question of why the act gave such special treatment to the GWR... any historians care to chip in?

As someone has already suggested I believe it was due to the fact is they were much bigger than any of the other constituents of any other member of the Big 4 and already neatly covered most of Wales and the West. I suppose civil servants are the same through history, always after the cheapest and easiest option and no doubt giving all these little railways to the GWR behemoth was easier and cheaper than trying to dissolve it.

Its also worth noting that the GWR had spent a lot of time in the later half of the 19th century gradually absorbing smaller companies on its patch under its own steam anyway so had made a good job of grouping before the government got round to it.

 

[D1009]

Long ago I heard an old GWR joke about how the Midland tried to take coal traffic off the GWR Severn Tunnel route.

Port Talbot to Ilfracombe. Via the Neath & Brecon connection, then Midland via Hereford, Worcester, Gloucester, Bath, Templecombe, onto the LSWR, Exeter, and to Ilfracombe.

Now Ilfracombe and Port Talbot are in sight of one another on a good day, but the overall journey must have been over 200 miles.

I'd have thought it would have been quicker and cheaper to send it by sea!

 

[randyrippley]

I'd have thought it would have been quicker and cheaper to send it by sea!

Coal was certainly shipped from South Wales to Somerset by sea, north Devon would make even more sense

 

[Taunton]

I'd have thought it would have been quicker and cheaper to send it by sea!

Well unfortunately the coal mines were not at the docks, so it was loaded into rail wagons at the colliery up in the valleys anyway. The additional rail cost to go round by the Severn Tunnel was less than the transhipment costs and costs for a coaster to take it across. The gasworks could also take it a wagonload at a time as required, whereas the coaster would take 1,000 tons. There was nowhere at the pier to store it, and as it had to be horse-and-carted, a few tons at a time, the gasworks being remote from either station or pier, it suited to have it come by rail. For household coal as well there was space for the merchants up at the station but not down by the pier.

 

[Busaholic]

Well unfortunately the coal mines were not at the docks, so it was loaded into rail wagons at the colliery up in the valleys anyway. The additional rail cost to go round by the Severn Tunnel was less than the transhipment costs and costs for a coaster to take it across. The gasworks could also take it a wagonload at a time as required, whereas the coaster would take 1,000 tons. There was nowhere at the pier to store it, and as it had to be horse-and-carted, a few tons at a time, the gasworks being remote from either station or pier, it suited to have it come by rail. For household coal as well there was space for the merchants up at the station but not down by the pier.

Off topic, but when did the Minehead ferry connection to South Wales run? I can remember it in the late 1960s, but didn't go on it because I get seasick on a boat in the Serpentine!

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Off topic, but when did the Minehead ferry connection to South Wales run? I can remember it in the late 1960s, but didn't go on it because I get seasick on a boat in the Serpentine!

The White Funnel Fleet of P & A Campbell Ltd operated from South Wales to Somerset and North Devon from 1893 to 1981.

They sailed from (amongst others) Barry, Penarth and Newport and went to (again, amongst others) Clevedon, Weston-Super-Mare, Minehead and Ilfracombe.

The tradition is still carried on with the PS Waverley and the MV Balmoral during the summer months.

 

[Taunton]

I remember those ships as well, the schedule varied from year to year, and sometimes from day to day as they used to put in to places as small as Lynmouth on summer Sunday afternoons if the tide was right. I seem to recall they were based at Bristol, and went down the Avon in the morning, then zig-zagged down the Bristol Channel, to Weston, Cardiff, Minehead, Porthcawl and Ilfracombe, returning the same way.

Some coal, along with other freight like timber, did come over to Somerset by coaster, Bridgwater docks in particular was a surprisingly busy little port, much of the freight there was reloaded into railway wagons. The WR had a few of their small dock tanks ostensibly based at Taunton but rarely seen there, as they were sub-shedded at Bridgwater, and the same applied when replaced by Class 03 diesel shunters, allocated to Taunton but whose work was entirely at Bridgwater. One used to waddle back to Taunton some afternoons for refuelling.

 

[Bookd]

Still away from the original topic I was told that the now derelict Birnbeck pier at Weston was an entertainment centre in its own right. The point was that under Welsh licensing laws (if you want a drink on Sunday you can wait to ****** Monday) there was huge demand from Welsh day trippers to Weston who could drink as much as they wished whilst in transit.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Still away from the original topic I was told that the now derelict Birnbeck pier at Weston was an entertainment centre in its own right. The point was that under Welsh licensing laws (if you want a drink on Sunday you can wait to ****** Monday) there was huge demand from Welsh day trippers to Weston who could drink as much as they wished whilst in transit.

Yes, I think that you're right - it was an attraction of it's own.

The advantage that it had was that the steamers landed at the pier, and Wiki says "Many visitors arriving on the steamers never left the pier and Birnbeck Island which between them housed the cafe, pavilion, amusements and funfair."

Another quote from Wiki deals with what happened next: "Regular ferries ceased serving Birnbeck in 1971 and the final excursion was made on 19th October 1979. The pleasure "steamers" PS Waverley and MV Balmoral still operate in the Bristol Channel, but any calls at Weston are made by a connecting tender from Knightstone Harbour. "

Regrettably, part of the north pier collapsed during storms on 30th December 2015, and it hasn't been rebuilt as far as I know.