GWR 80x 5-car - should they be replaced?

[JonathanH]

The idea with the 769s is to displace 165s to provide units for the MetroWest proposals which are starting to come to fruition

Yes, but if there was a short term where 165s could displace 158s to remove HSTs, that would be the priority over any increase in other services. Any extra 158s might then allow the 165s to cover the MetroWest proposals.

There was a suggestion elsewhere that 7 769s in service displacing 7 165s west would allow 5 HSTs to go in May.

 

[Mag_seven]

What needs to be remembered is that the original IEP Timetable envisaged substantial splitting and joining of 5 car sets at places such as Cardiff, Bristol TM and Plymouth hence the large number of 5 car sets ordered. The constant changing of rolling stock specification did not help either i.e. first of all all diesel, then a mixture of electric and bi mode then all bi mode!

 

[Horizon22]

I disagree that they shouldn't have been built, they're ideal for Bedwyn, off peak Oxfords and also the Exeter stoppers (which are often a wasted 9 car), its more a case of they built too many 5 cars

I agree. The balance is not quite right. However the initial DfT plan was for continual splitting at Plymouth and thus the allocations has been skewed that way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2022 ==

What needs to be remembered is that the original IEP Timetable envisaged substantial splitting and joining of 5 car sets at places such as Cardiff, Bristol TM and Plymouth hence the large number of 5 car sets ordered. The constant changing of rolling stock specification did not help either i.e. first of all all diesel, then a mixture of electric and bi mode then all bi mode!

True. We're talking about something that is almost a decade old now in terms of contracts and planning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back of a fag packet stuff would suggest maybe 15-20. Don't forget there are 800s and 802s under different contracts.

This is a very interesting number indeed, as it would seem, from the ScotRail HST thread, to be the correct number that would be required to replace the ScotRail HSTs too. 5 car sets would be a perfect drop-in replacement for the HSTs, though you might want to do some work to remove the kitchen and add a buffet counter, and swap the seat covers and carpets so they are in their fancy tartan rather than drab grey.

 

[Horizon22]

I'd think 25 might be safer bet really, but anything would be a guess at this point. GWR have 36 800/5s and 22 802/5

 

[Mikey C]

I'd think 25 might be safer bet really, but anything would be a guess at this point. GWR have 36 800/5s and 22 802/5

So GWR CHOSE to get an extra 22 5 car sets, a decision nothing to do with the DfT?

I presume these 22 would be easier to move elsewhere, leaving 36 which would be plenty for the routes where they are suitable?

 

[JonathanH]

So GWR CHOSE to get an extra 22 5 car sets, a decision nothing to do with the DfT?

The decision to use 5-car 802s in Cornwall had everything to do with the DfT.

It has been explained multiple times that the DfT only allowed GWR to run 2tph in Cornwall on the basis of the London services splitting at Plymouth.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...grams-allocations.153431/page-69#post-4442306

 

[cactustwirly]

I think people are making mountains out of molehills.

Most intercity services out of Paddington are 9 car.
The 5 car units are used on Bedwyn, Oxford, Cotswold and Cheltenham services mainly.
Obviously the services that also go to Penzance.

I think some Swansea diagrams are 10 cars, as they include some services that continue to Camarthen, which also needs 5 car units

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think people are making mountains out of molehills.

Most intercity services out of Paddington are 9 car.
The 5 car units are used on Bedwyn, Oxford, Cotswold and Cheltenham services mainly.
Obviously the services that also go to Penzance.

I think some Swansea diagrams are 10 cars, as they include some services that continue to Camarthen, which also needs 5 car units

A load of Bristol services are 10s too.

 

[RPI]

So GWR CHOSE to get an extra 22 5 car sets, a decision nothing to do with the DfT?

I presume these 22 would be easier to move elsewhere, leaving 36 which would be plenty for the routes where they are suitable?

But let's remember that a number of those were solely for Bedwyn services.

 

[tbtc]

This is why I'm worried about EMR's spec too - they've ordered 5 car for their Class 810 Aurora fleet and said they will "mainly run in multiple" so why go down this route in the first place? Some 9 or 10 car at the very least would be sensible...

The 810 plan seems to be based on enough trains to allow half the diagrams to run as ten coaches (based on the number needed to maintain half hourly trains from London to Sheffield and Nottingham), but with the simplicity of having just one type of Long Distance High Speed unit - trying to accommodate a tiny number of longer units would make things a lot more complicated and restrict these trains to only certain duties - the MML has had enough problems in recent years with the mess of different lengths of 222s (four/five/seven/eight/nine/ten carriages, depending on whether they were working in multiple)

I think people are making mountains out of molehills.

Most intercity services out of Paddington are 9 car.
The 5 car units are used on Bedwyn, Oxford, Cotswold and Cheltenham services mainly.
Obviously the services that also go to Penzance.

I think some Swansea diagrams are 10 cars, as they include some services that continue to Camarthen, which also needs 5 car units

Agreed

It's hard to argue with something as simplistic as "we should have longer trains" (presented with no downsides/ drawbacks/ costs) but the ability to split seems to be a useful one and the fact that "2+2=9" allows flexibility that would be lost if you tried introducing seven coach lengths etc

Really what needs doing is a few more centre carriages being ordered to allow a small number of five coach units to become nine coaches but nothing particularly complicated/ radical

Worth remembering that a number of the services the 800/801/802 were built for were either previously operated by two coach 158s (Swindon - Cheltenham) or three coach 166s (Oxfords, Bedwyn) or operated by five coach 180s (Cardiffs, at one stage) or didn't exist at all (Bristol TM via Parkway), so whilst a five coach train may seem short to some people, it's still quite a capacity increase (as is the capacity increase in Cornwall caused by the improvement in non-London services)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair point. I do think doubled up 5s are a nuisance in many ways, so it would be good to extend enough to 9 that any service currently doubled can be a 9 instead, and 5s relegated to services only requiring single operation.

In practice portion working has not proven very useful, with Penzance services too busy for 5s.

 

[irish_rail]

The 810 plan seems to be based on enough trains to allow half the diagrams to run as ten coaches (based on the number needed to maintain half hourly trains from London to Sheffield and Nottingham), but with the simplicity of having just one type of Long Distance High Speed unit - trying to accommodate a tiny number of longer units would make things a lot more complicated and restrict these trains to only certain duties - the MML has had enough problems in recent years with the mess of different lengths of 222s (four/five/seven/eight/nine/ten carriages, depending on whether they were working in multiple)



Agreed

It's hard to argue with something as simplistic as "we should have longer trains" (presented with no downsides/ drawbacks/ costs) but the ability to split seems to be a useful one and the fact that "2+2=9" allows flexibility that would be lost if you tried introducing seven coach lengths etc

Really what needs doing is a few more centre carriages being ordered to allow a small number of five coach units to become nine coaches but nothing particularly complicated/ radical

Worth remembering that a number of the services the 800/801/802 were built for were either previously operated by two coach 158s (Swindon - Cheltenham) or three coach 166s (Oxfords, Bedwyn) or operated by five coach 180s (Cardiffs, at one stage) or didn't exist at all (Bristol TM via Parkway), so whilst a five coach train may seem short to some people, it's still quite a capacity increase (as is the capacity increase in Cornwall caused by the improvement in non-London services)

But the trouble is the flexibility just isn't required on the Penzance route. The vast majority of services should be 9 car throughout on that route. Tinkering about with the odd quieter service and forcing it to split at Plymouth merely adds complexity and risk to the timetable, plus the cost of additional staff, negating any savings.
No one is suggesting that all 5 cars be binned, maybe just enough to eliminate 10 car workings, leaving sufficient 5 car sets for the shorter , quieter services.

 

[RPI]

But the trouble is the flexibility just isn't required on the Penzance route. The vast majority of services should be 9 car throughout on that route. Tinkering about with the odd quieter service and forcing it to split at Plymouth merely adds complexity and risk to the timetable, plus the cost of additional staff, negating any savings.
No one is suggesting that all 5 cars be binned, maybe just enough to eliminate 10 car workings, leaving sufficient 5 car sets for the shorter , quieter services.

There is logic to retaining the odd split/join and that is keeping drivers familiar with the operation, I see from the summer workings (I appreciate they're not yet set in stone) some of the Newquay services split or join at Plymouth too.

 

[Horizon22]

But the trouble is the flexibility just isn't required on the Penzance route. The vast majority of services should be 9 car throughout on that route. Tinkering about with the odd quieter service and forcing it to split at Plymouth merely adds complexity and risk to the timetable, plus the cost of additional staff, negating any savings.
No one is suggesting that all 5 cars be binned, maybe just enough to eliminate 10 car workings, leaving sufficient 5 car sets for the shorter , quieter services.

The issue is either binning off some 5s (let’s say around half) or all the 800s (leaving 22 802/5s) you then need a reasonably similar number of 9-cars for GWR, which would be quite the expense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue is either binning off some 5s (let’s say around half) or all the 800s (leaving 22 802/5s) you then need a reasonably similar number of 9-cars for GWR, which would be quite the expense.

Though obviously a fleet of nearly-new 80x wouldn't actually be "binned off", they would move to another TOC in need of that sort of thing. It's clear ScotRail could do with getting rid of their HSTs, and bi-modes would provide for progressive electrification as is the plan. And similarly XC would benefit from the higher capacity and avoidance of stinking out New St. Plus GWR could move to an all-80x Cornish mainline. So the units would not be wasted, not in the slightest, there are plenty of potential homes for them.

 

[JonathanH]

Plus GWR could move to an all-80x Cornish mainline.

The only way that is affordable is if the second train in the hour is cancelled. 80x on the Plymouth to Penzance services (other than positioning moves) isn't happening, at least not in the next 30 years.

 

[Horizon22]

Though obviously a fleet of nearly-new 80x wouldn't actually be "binned off", they would move to another TOC in need of that sort of thing. It's clear ScotRail could do with getting rid of their HSTs, and bi-modes would provide for progressive electrification as is the plan. And similarly XC would benefit from the higher capacity and avoidance of stinking out New St. Plus GWR could move to an all-80x Cornish mainline. So the units would not be wasted, not in the slightest, there are plenty of potential homes for them.

No just a figure of speech. If you want to keep some 5-cars to replace the local Cornish services which are Castle Class short HSTs (which I think you’re implying) then that would obviously mean more to stay. You’d have even more depot capacity issues too.

 

[irish_rail]

The only way that is affordable is if the second train in the hour is cancelled. 80x on the Plymouth to Penzance services (other than positioning moves) isn't happening, at least not in the next 30 years.

You know that do you? Because that is very at odds with what is being said by fleet managers. 80x replacing HSTs is very much a viable option at present , trust me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2022 ==

No just a figure of speech. If you want to keep some 5-cars to replace the local Cornish services which are Castle Class short HSTs (which I think you’re implying) then that would obviously mean more to stay. You’d have even more depot capacity issues too.

Hitachi where at Laira a week or so ago again "measuring up". Cant be sure for what, but makes ye think.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2022 ==

The issue is either binning off some 5s (let’s say around half) or all the 800s (leaving 22 802/5s) you then need a reasonably similar number of 9-cars for GWR, which would be quite the expense.

I'm probably looking at this over simplistically, but surely for every set currently running as a 10 car (2x 5s) you would need 1x 9 car to replace the 2 x 5s. So surely if you lose say 10 x 5 car sets you would build 5 x 9 car sets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2022 ==

There is logic to retaining the odd split/join and that is keeping drivers familiar with the operation, I see from the summer workings (I appreciate they're not yet set in stone) some of the Newquay services split or join at Plymouth too.

I would guess the Newquay thing is a necessity, as other than boardmasters, those services never justify more than load 5 west of Plymouth. The Penzance trains are generally very different. Although I accept your point about needing to keep crews trained on coupling and uncoupling.

 

[JonathanH]

You know that do you? Because that is very at odds with what is being said by fleet managers. 80x replacing HSTs is very much a viable option at present , trust me.

No obviously not. I guess if there is some spare capacity in the 80x fleet and the units have to be paid for anyway, I could see how it might be viable but it does still seem to be overkill when a rearrangement of other GWR units also achieves the aim of removing the HST fleet as quickly as possible.

If DfT wanted the HSTs gone at the May timetable change, some combination of using 80x units and the 769>165>158 cascade might well be the way to do it. I'd hazard that some emergency timetable reductions on LTV services might focus the minds on 769 introduction.

Hitachi where at Laira a week or so ago again "measuring up". Cant be sure for what, but makes ye think.

Transferring Laira to Hitachi does seem to make quite a lot of sense, coupled with withdrawal of the GWR and XC HSTs. It would make for easier diagramming of the 800s and 802s and potentially open up a pathway for Hitachi units on Cross Country at some point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No obviously not. I guess if there is some spare capacity in the 80x fleet and the units have to be paid for anyway, I could see how it might be viable but it does still seem to be overkill when a rearrangement of other GWR units also achieves the aim of removing the HST fleet as quickly as possible.

I'm not only suggesting this to replace the HSTs, that is a convenient by-product (or they could go elsewhere and something else replace the HSTs; there are a number of TOCs who could make good use of 5-car 80x). I'm suggesting it because 10-car sets are an utter nuisance for pretty much everyone who has anything to do with them.

 

[XAM2175]

I wonder how easy it would be to disable the ETCS interface and fit a standard speedometer, but leave the rest of the ETCS apparatus dormant, which would remove some of the driver interface issues. I bet there would still be a considerable amount of extra defect handling knowledge required though.

The Ansaldo ETCS fit-out on TfW's 158s preserves the conventional speedometer:


(Picture shows the driver's cab of a TfW 158; a conventional speedometer and air gauges are fitted on the left-hand side of the desk. Pic stolen from the RDG Guidance Note at https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/m...g-gn-nti-005etcson-boardequipmentv2/file.html)

But yes, there would still need to be a sizeable amount of differences training.

 

[irish_rail]

I'm not only suggesting this to replace the HSTs, that is a convenient by-product (or they could go elsewhere and something else replace the HSTs; there are a number of TOCs who could make good use of 5-car 80x). I'm suggesting it because 10-car sets are an utter nuisance for pretty much everyone who has anything to do with them.

I'd echo this. The 9 cars are way preferable in almost every way compared with a 10 operationally. And id also argue the passenger environment in first class is slightly better in a 9 car than a 10, but that may be personal preference.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'd echo this. The 9 cars are way preferable in almost every way compared with a 10 operationally. And id also argue the passenger environment in first class is slightly better in a 9 car than a 10, but that may be personal preference.

I second that - about half of Coach K on the 9-car sets has about the same seating layout as a Mark 2 coach except for one side of course.

 

[Pete_uk]

I would just extend six or eight 5 car to 9 car and ensure they work more peak time services

 

[irish_rail]

I would just extend six or eight 5 car to 9 car and ensure they work more peak time services

It isn't the peak trains which are busy though.
Its the mid to late morning departures, on the PZ route anyhow.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If DfT wanted the HSTs gone at the May timetable change, some combination of using 80x units and the 769>165>158 cascade might well be the way to do it.

HSTs aren’t going anywhere at the May Timetable change!

 

[RPI]

HSTs aren’t going anywhere at the May Timetable change!

Not true.... they'll be going to Cardiff, Penzance, Exeter......