GWR 166 Turbo - Noise

[dcli]

Hi All,

I live near a railway station and the above units have long stopovers and leave the engines running.

The 166 is very noisy when idling. I was wondering if anybody knows of a reason why they could not be switched off say after 10 minutes, or is there a technical reason why they cant:be switched off?

Any thoughts or advice.

DCLI

 

[Clarence Yard]

Which station and for how long? It will help give you an informed answer to your question.

 

[dcli]

Severn Beach Station BS354PL 30 mins hr21.14 leave hr 21.35/ . GWR has informed me that they should be turned off, if longer than Ten minutes. I have spoken to drivers say they have no instruction.Have GWR given me wrong information.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No they haven't but I suspect nobody at GWR has realised it is needed for that working (as the turnrounds there are usually very short) and the drivers diagram will therefore not show it.

I will have a word with GWR - they are very aware of Turbo noise issues elsewhere.

 

[Lewlew]

I've noticed on some of the long layovers at Basingstoke/Reading the engines will turn off after 10 mins or so but only when there is no driver key in. So somewhere like Severn Beach and it only being 20 minutes it's highly likely that the driver will change ends and open up pretty quickly thus the engines won't time out.

 

[DelW]

I've noticed on some of the long layovers at Basingstoke/Reading the engines will turn off after 10 mins or so but only when there is no driver key in. So somewhere like Severn Beach and it only being 20 minutes it's highly likely that the driver will change ends and open up pretty quickly thus the engines won't time out.

Quite often on the Turbos on Gatwick services from Reading, the engines are turned off when I've boarded. Driver usually arrives and starts engines five minutes or so before departure.

 

[dcli]

Thanks for replies , have been surfing the web in Canada and USA they have stop and start trains,

Automatic Engine Start-Stop (AESS) Control Technology
How it works: AESS turns the locomotive engine on and off to maintain cooling water temperature, lube oil and fuel temperature, air brake pressure, ambient temperature and battery charge within specific parameters.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/noise-and-vibration-idling-locomotives

This technology restarts the main diesel engine automatically when any of these parameters fall below specified thresholds that would impede a quick start or restart. It then automatically shuts down the engine when the parameters are met again after idling for a certain period of time. Are we that far behind other counties.

I wonder if this will work on the 166's.

DCLI

 

[RichT54]

I was at Reading today waiting for the 14:57 service to Redhill.

The class 165 turbo arrived from Gatwick at 14:21. The engines continued running until 14:39 when they cut out. They were restarted at 14:46 and we departed 1L at 14:58.

This means that the engines were running for 30 out of the 37 minutes that the train was stationary.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

I was at Reading today waiting for the 14:57 service to Redhill.

The class 165 turbo arrived from Gatwick at 14:21. The engines continued running until 14:39 when they cut out. They were restarted at 14:46 and we departed 1L at 14:58.

This means that the engines were running for 30 out of the 37 minutes that the train was stationary.

maybe not at the moment with the current news being all taken up by a certain virus, but when things get a bit quieter and nothing’s happening TOCs wasting fuel such as this could be picked up by a newspaper or two and turned into a story. Doesn’t seem a wise thing to do if it isn’t necessary.

 

[Sprinter107]

I generally turn the engines on my train off of I'm standing for any more than 10 minutes, however, if it's a very cold day, I keep them running if I have passengers on board, otherwise they get no heating.

 

[hwl]

Thanks for replies , have been surfing the web in Canada and USA they have stop and start trains,

Automatic Engine Start-Stop (AESS) Control Technology
How it works: AESS turns the locomotive engine on and off to maintain cooling water temperature, lube oil and fuel temperature, air brake pressure, ambient temperature and battery charge within specific parameters.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/publication/noise-and-vibration-idling-locomotives

This technology restarts the main diesel engine automatically when any of these parameters fall below specified thresholds that would impede a quick start or restart. It then automatically shuts down the engine when the parameters are met again after idling for a certain period of time. Are we that far behind other counties.

I wonder if this will work on the 166's.

DCLI

Note the word "locomotive" in the link...

The off-the-shelf AESS systems are designed for large US locomotive engines where they can be integrated into existing computer systems, spare 19" rack space and existing locomotive sensors (DB and FL have retrofitted to their cl. 66s for example).

AESS doesn't work as well as the promotional literature says...

The factory fitted system in the Cl 70s hasn't been that great either.

The 165/166 are the last of the pre computer UK DMU stock hence anything parameter based would need a huge retorfit. They (like one batch of 158s) use some Perkins engines based on the 1950s Rolls Royce Diesel C series engine, effectively the last ordered of that type and rely on good old fashioned engineering with minimal sensors and electronics.

A huge problem with AESS is that it can't know how long it will take to build up air pressure to release brakes etc. so has to be over-rideable.

Hence a simple timer based advisory solutions are the best you could realistically hope for in this case.

~£6/hour saving is going to take a long time to pay back given the cost involved.

 

[LowLevel]

Note the word "locomotive" in the link...

The off-the-shelf AESS systems are designed for large US locomotive engines where they can be integrated into existing computer systems, spare 19" rack space and existing locomotive sensors (DB and FL have retrofitted to their cl. 66s for example).

AESS doesn't work as well as the promotional literature says...

The factory fitted system in the Cl 70s hasn't been that great either.

The 165/166 are the last of the pre computer UK DMU stock hence anything parameter based would need a huge retorfit. They (like one batch of 158s) use some Perkins engines based on the 1950s Rolls Royce Diesel C series engine, effectively the last ordered of that type and rely on good old fashioned engineering with minimal sensors and electronics.

A huge problem with AESS is that it can't know how long it will take to build up air pressure to release brakes etc. so has to be over-rideable.

Hence a simple timer based advisory solutions are the best you could realistically hope for in this case.

~£6/hour saving is going to take a long time to pay back given the cost involved.

Class 158 which is a similar train already has a timer built in interlinked with the air con isolating switch. If the air con is switched in the engines will shut down when the key has been out for a certain length of time. If you isolate the air conditioning system the train stays running.

153 and 156 also have a simple timer based system.

 

[hwl]

Class 158 which is a similar train already has a timer built in interlinked with the air con isolating switch. If the air con is switched in the engines will shut down when the key has been out for a certain length of time. If you isolate the air conditioning system the train stays running.

153 and 156 also have a simple timer based system.

Exactly - All the solutions are low tech, cheap and simple, e.g. involve timers and simple changes to the controls rather than anything engine based which would be very expensive.

 

[KT530]

I was at Reading today waiting for the 14:57 service to Redhill.

The class 165 turbo arrived from Gatwick at 14:21. The engines continued running until 14:39 when they cut out. They were restarted at 14:46 and we departed 1L at 14:58.

This means that the engines were running for 30 out of the 37 minutes that the train was stationary.

Local instructions are to turn engines off if the train is booked to stay in platform for 5 minutes or more, so they should have been turned off on arrival.

 

[Deepgreen]

Local instructions are to turn engines off if the train is booked to stay in platform for 5 minutes or more, so they should have been turned off on arrival.

Why can't this be extended to be more than a local instruction, but a network-wide one?

As a partial aside, I witnessed a car driver the other day, who started his large car (pick-up truck) in a car park, then proceeded to do various 'phone-based stuff. I returned to the car park 25 minutes later and he was still there on his 'phone with the car engine running. A mild and sunny morning, by they way, so no heating needed. A staggering waste of fuel, engine wear and unnecessary pollution, etc. It never ceases to amaze me how unaware/uncaring so many people are about this sort of thing.

 

[dcli]

Local instructions are to turn engines off if the train is booked to stay in platform for 5 minutes or more, so they should have been turned off on arrival.

Hi,

How do you get a copy of the local instructions ? or an extract of this statement.

Many thanks for this information.

DCLI.

@KT530
It looks like I cant message anyone as I have such a low post count at the moment.

I wish Sprinter107 was a driver on the Severn Beach line, I have no problem not turning off in cold weather or for Air con in very hot days.