'Guildford - Croydon' season ticket

[handsomelife]

Hello, wonder if anyone can help here.

My partner recently purchased a season ticket from Guildford to Croydon Stns with the route 'Not Clapham'. At Guildford ticket office we were told this means travelling Via Epsom and doesn't allow travel via Redhill because this is a more expensive ticket

The other options available were a ticket routed Not London which is for use predominately via Clapham or Guildford - R56 which again is via Epsom.

My question is, would my partner get pulled up if she was to continue travelling via Redhill, where is the proof that 'Not Clapham' excludes travel via Redhill?

 

[yorkie]

My question is, would my partner get pulled up if she was to continue travelling via Redhill,

The chances have increased now you've posted it here.

It is difficult to say, without knowing the knowledge of the guards. Unless they've been specifically told this, I'd say that it is likely that they would not pick up on it.

I am unsure what the fare would be if they realised. If it was a day return it'd be half the difference (for a CDR this would be 60 pence!) per portion.

Perhaps for seasons it would be the difference between the SDS price? Someone like barrykas or RJ will know and may be able to reply here...

where is the proof that 'Not Clapham' excludes travel via Redhill?

Well, firstly they could prove that Redhill is a more expensive route by tapping in the origin/destination into their ticket machine. That's easy.

Can they prove that means that Not Clapham isn't valid via Redhill? Well, it depends on how the Routeing Guide is interpreted.

It should be re-named (perhaps Route Carshalton ?) to make sense. I have a lot of sympathy with anyone who thinks they can use such a ticket via Redhill, because logically you should be able to. There is nothing in the name "Not Clapham" to suggest you can't.

 

[Old Timer]

......My question is, would my partner get pulled up if she was to continue travelling via Redhill, where is the proof that 'Not Clapham' excludes travel via Redhill?

Errrr. Have you not answered your own question ?

You have been told, to use your own words......

At Guildford ticket office we were told this means travelling Via Epsom and doesn't allow travel via Redhill because this is a more expensive ticket

So why not buy the correct ticket which IS valid ?

 

[handsomelife]

Errrr. Have you not answered your own question ?

You have been told, to use your own words......
So why not buy the correct ticket which IS valid ?

She'd already purchased the ticket assuming that Not Clapham meant travelling via Redhill is acceptable.

And please sir, find me some actual proof that the ticket ISN'T valid via Redhill.

 

[yorkie]

The Routeing Guide is here http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide but it is very badly worded when it comes to specific routeings.

"If the fare is specifically routedin the fares manual, check carefully that the route selected is via this specific route."

Yeah it's routed not Clapham, and yeah you don't go via Clapham

"You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted".

Ok, so we can't use all the permitted routes. But which can't we use? All those that don't go through Clapham presumably?

"An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists."

They probably meant to extend that to any ticket, but it doesn't say that does it? This restriction only applies to "Any Permitted" tickets, which yours is not.

HHF will probably be along shortly with a counter-argument though!

Could be a 10-page topic potentially

 

[MikeWh]

I'm probably missing something, but I can't see via Redhill as a permitted route between Croydon Group and Guildford. There are three entries in the table. First is LONDON which definitely won't allow travel via Redhill, surely? Last is PD+SC which appears to add in routes via Clapham Junction and Epsom. In the middle is one which I don't understand. It is LB+WX+SC+PD. LB+WX would appear to be enough for the journey without SC+PD. However, the important thing is that none of those map pages allows any of the route between Guildford and Redhill via Dorking.

Unless I've missed something obvious, to use that route you must have a ticket which says "VIA REDHILL".

 

[yorkie]

I've not checked the permitted routes, but if via Redhill is not a permitted route, then perhaps that answers the question!

Or does it?

Any Permitted tickets are valid via Redhill due to the fact that Redhill is a cheaper route. Does that mean Redhill is a "permitted route"?

If so, then if "Not Clapham Jn" is defined as "All permitted routes except those which pass through Clapham Jn" then it is permitted.

This is one that can give you a headache trying to work it out.

I think John @ Home may be well-placed to consider this one!

 

[MikeWh]

If the ticket was any permitted then it would allow travel over mapped routes, the shortest route, any routes up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route and direct trains. None of those apply to the route via Redhill, except that as it's cheaper than any permitted, I agree it should be valid on an any permitted ticket. However, the ticket that the OP has is cheaper than the via Redhill ticket, so as it's not an any permitted route it can no longer be considered valid in conjunction with the cheaper not clapham junction ticket.

That's the logic I'd use, but we all know that "UK railway ticketing" and "logic" can never appear in the same sentence.

 

[John @ home]

I think John @ Home may be well-placed to consider this one!

Thanks! It may be helpful to consider the history of Guildford - Croydon fares and routes. It seems that the four different sets of fares have existed since the start of the National Routeing Guide, for example:

[B]National Fares Manual[/B] : [U]Guildford - Croydon Stations[/U]
Standard Day Single (SDS)            NFM 71         NFM 07
                                  Jan-May1999    Sep-Dec2010
route NOT CLAPHAM JN                  5.40           7.00
route NOT LONDON                      7.10           9.00
route REDHILL                         8.20          12.40
route + ANY PERMITTED                10.80          13.80

My calculations indicate that, throughout this period, route REDHILL has not been a mapped route between GUILDFORD and CROYDON STATIONS.

Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description.

There were, and are, no GUILDFORD - CROYDON STATIONS routes listed in the Guide which pass through REDHILL. But a passenger who buys a GUILDFORD - CROYDON STATIONS route REDHILL ticket has a contract to be carried between these points. Situations such as this have led to speculation on this forum that, in these circumstances, a passenger may travel by any Permitted Route GUILDFORD - REDHILL then by any Permitted Route REDHILL - CROYDON. ATOC have refused to confirm or deny this:

Clive Feather to ATOC, 31 July 1998
4. Where a ticket is routed via some intermediate station (or "via London"), it is not entirely clear how I determine permitted routes. I can see two obvious possible rules:

• Determine all permitted routes, then delete those that do not pass through the intermediate station. However, this will not work if the intermediate station is not on any permitted route (including the shortest).
• Determine all permitted routes from the origin to the intermediate point and, separately, from the intermediate point to the destination. In other words, treat it as two independent journeys for this purpose.

Which of these applies? If neither, what is the rule?

ATOC to Clive Feather, 25 September 1998
This is answered on page A2 "How to Determine Permitted Routes":

"where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description... Where there are other permitted routes these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies."

Clive Feather to ATOC, 26 October 1998
In the discussion of tickets with routes, both in the guide and in your reply to question 4, you have not considered the situation where none of the permitted routes run via the named station. For example, consider a ticket from Leeds to London route "Manchester". [1] The route from Leeds to London is ER or MM, and this does not include any route via Manchester.

What are the valid routes for tickets of this kind, and in particular for this ticket? (I understand that it is permitted to use the route of any ticket that is cheaper or the same price.) How do I determine such routes?

ATOC to Clive Feather, 25 September 1998
ATOC does not have the time or resources to devote to answering lengthy enquiries of a "research" nature.

http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn1.html

[1] There used to be a Leeds - London route Manchester ticket but Leeds - Manchester - London is not a mapped route. The ticket has now been withdrawn.

It seems to me that changes to the Routeing Guide over the last ten years may have added additional unexpected route availability for some GUILDFORD - CROYDON tickets. More later when I have had time to check this.

 

[barrykas]

It is difficult to say, without knowing the knowledge of the guards. Unless they've been specifically told this, I'd say that it is likely that they would not pick up on it.

I am unsure what the fare would be if they realised. If it was a day return it'd be half the difference (for a CDR this would be 60 pence!) per portion.

Perhaps for seasons it would be the difference between the SDS price? Someone like barrykas or RJ will know and may be able to reply here...

The only Season Ticket excess example in The Manual is that of Standard to First Class, where it's the difference between the appropriate Single tickets.

On that basis, I'd be inclined to do an "Alternate Route" excess in the same manner, which would equate to £5.40 (£4.70 after 0930). In other words, if you're planning on going via Redhill on more than one day, you're better off getting the route Redhill ticket in the first place. (And probably technically need a zero fare excess should you decide to go via Epsom or Wimbledon).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[John @ home]

The early editions of the National Routeing Guide in 1996 and 1997 gave permitted routes GUILDFORD - CROYDON GROUP via LONDON or by map combination SC+PD. For routes via London, map combinations "to London" are combined with those for the "from London" leg of the journey. The only GUILDFORD - LONDON map was PD. All GUILDFORD - LONDON routes on this map passed through Clapham Jn. There was therefore no question of a passenger holding a GUILDFORD - CROYDON route NOT CLAPHAM JN ticket being allowed to go via London.

My recollection is that these early routes caused complaints that traditional GUILDFORD - LONDON validity to stations such as Charing X, London Bridge or Blackfriars had been lost. Changes were made.

These re-introduced validity to Charing X, London Bridge and Blackfriars, but also changed the permitted routes for GUILDFORD - CROYDON route NOT CLAPHAM JN tickets. A map combination showing Permitted routes GUILDFORD - LONDON is PD+SC. One showing Permitted routes LONDON - CROYDON is LB. Combining these gives the following Permitted Route for the whole journey:

• Map PD: Guildford - Working - Surbiton - Wimbledon.
• Map SC: Wimbledon - Tooting - Streatham - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Blackfriars.
• Map LB: Blackfriars - London Bridge - New Cross Gate - Forest Hill - Croydon.

This route does not pass through Clapham Jn. It is therefore valid using a GUILDFORD - CROYDON route NOT CLAPHAM JN ticket. A passenger holding a GUILDFORD - CROYDON route NOT CLAPHAM JN ticket is now allowed to go via (some) London Terminals.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....HHF will probably be along shortly with a counter-argument though!

Could be a 10-page topic potentially

I would be hoping for twenty!

In my opinion it is not valid without an excess, unless you can get a direct train from Croydon to Guildford via Redhill. The routeing guide states that where are routes outside of those mapped (in this case caused by the 'rte Redhill' ticket) you can use these routes provided the same or lower fare applies, it doesn't in this case.