Guards - Timekeeping vs Revenue Protection

[ukrob]

Just had the following experience and it got me thinking. I'm not going to name the service.

On leaving the terminus station (which has a manned barrier with staff who are apparently blind, you can show them anything from a ticket to a condom to get through), the guard started checking (and selling) tickets from the front. We arrived at the first station and it was a full 50 seconds before the guard made his way to the front cab (he was still in the front cariage), and started the opening doors process starting with DKS (it was a Class 142).

Arriving at the second stop (where I was getting off) the guard was in the rear carriage. AFTER the train had come to a full stop he started to make his way to the rear set of doors, inserted key for DKS only to realise it was still active at the front of the train, as the driver clearly realised too when the continous buzzer sounded. The driver got out his cab, sorted the DKS (with much tutting and sighing) and the guard was able to open the doors from the rear of the train.

The train left just under four full minutes down from the second station stop. No doubt it will arrive 'on time' at its destination due to recovery time.

I have two questions about this.

1) Surely the guard should get to the doors before (or as) the train is stopping instead of faffing about with tickets? Whatever happened to the phrase "I will be back in a moment, I just have to operate the doors". At both stations, the people he was dealing with were not getting off, so it was not lost revenue.

2) Regardless of (potentially) arriving at the destination on time, is it really appropiate for the guard to cause delays at all the intermediate stops?

As it happens, I have seen this particular guard on many occasions, and this is not an isolated incident with him - I have been on many a train he causes delays to through revenue protection whilst standing at a station waiting for the doors to be released.

Any thoughts?

 

[Tom B]

Surely timekeeping is more important - if the guard is genuinely unable to get around the train on his own, then an extra ticket inspector can be employed.

(Of course - paramount to both is matters of safety, however much the shareholders may not like it!).

 

[ffcphone]

this annoys me too. Perhaps guard thinking more of his wages being topped up rather than time keeping.

 

[TDK]

Just had the following experience and it got me thinking. I'm not going to name the service.

On leaving the terminus station (which has a manned barrier with staff who are apparently blind, you can show them anything from a ticket to a condom to get through), the guard started checking (and selling) tickets from the front. We arrived at the first station and it was a full 50 seconds before the guard made his way to the front cab (he was still in the front cariage), and started the opening doors process starting with DKS (it was a Class 142).

Arriving at the second stop (where I was getting off) the guard was in the rear carriage. AFTER the train had come to a full stop he started to make his way to the rear set of doors, inserted key for DKS only to realise it was still active at the front of the train, as the driver clearly realised too when the continous buzzer sounded. The driver got out his cab, sorted the DKS (with much tutting and sighing) and the guard was able to open the doors from the rear of the train.

The train left just under four full minutes down from the second station stop. No doubt it will arrive 'on time' at its destination due to recovery time.

I have two questions about this.

1) Surely the guard should get to the doors before (or as) the train is stopping instead of faffing about with tickets? Whatever happened to the phrase "I will be back in a moment, I just have to operate the doors". At both stations, the people he was dealing with were not getting off, so it was not lost revenue.

2) Regardless of (potentially) arriving at the destination on time, is it really appropiate for the guard to cause delays at all the intermediate stops?

As it happens, I have seen this particular guard on many occasions, and this is not an isolated incident with him - I have been on many a train he causes delays to through revenue protection whilst standing at a station waiting for the doors to be released.

Any thoughts?

You will find that guards for ATW get 5% commision on ticket sales, there is the answer if the company you were using has the same policy.

 

[ukrob]

You will find that guards for ATW get 5% commision on ticket sales, there is the answer if the company you were using has the same policy.

I already know of the commission but that isn't a good enough reason to delay trains - nor explain what the proper procedures are

 

[me123]

Surely timekeeping is more important - if the guard is genuinely unable to get around the train on his own, then an extra ticket inspector can be employed.

This happened on the 0807 Whifflet-Glasgow Central train. It runs as a single 156 at about 100% capacity on a journey length of only 29 minutes-especially fun on Monday Mornings with season ticket renewals.

At first the guard struggled to get around the train. A "Meet the Managers" session highlighted this issue; passengers would be waiting over 15 minutes at the ticket gates with another train arriving at about the same time across the platform!

Now they have two staff onboard (seems to vary from 2 conductors to 1 conductor and a ticket inspector) and this has really helped things.

 

[Aictos]

To me timekeeping and safety is more important with revenue duties taking second place.

 

[Mintona]

That's the way it should be ajax. That's the way we do it.

 

[Tom B]

This happened on the 0807 Whifflet-Glasgow Central train. It runs as a single 156 at about 100% capacity on a journey length of only 29 minutes-especially fun on Monday Mornings with season ticket renewals.

At first the guard struggled to get around the train. A "Meet the Managers" session highlighted this issue; passengers would be waiting over 15 minutes at the ticket gates with another train arriving at about the same time across the platform!

Now they have two staff onboard (seems to vary from 2 conductors to 1 conductor and a ticket inspector) and this has really helped things.

Is "Meet the Managers" actually genuine and not just a talking-shop, then? I suppose it's something that ScotRail are forced to do - FirstBus would not want its victims talking to its management if they could avoid it!

 

[djw1981]

Personally I say increase the basic and do away with commission. They should be professional enough to check tickets, and if they don't then the CCTV will show if they are in back cab or not - if in back cab before all tickets checked, then disciplinary hearing.

 

[ukrob]

Personally I say increase the basic and do away with commission. They should be professional enough to check tickets, and if they don't then the CCTV will show if they are in back cab or not - if in back cab before all tickets checked, then disciplinary hearing.

I don't see why the basic should be raised so that they do their job properly.

I agree though - hopefully as CCTV becomes more widespread these kinds of things will be checked up on just the same as they are in many many other industries. Guards don't like it? Tough. Do your job and it isn't a problem. Obviously there will be legitimate exceptions such as machine failing, local instruction to stay in rear cab etc.

 

[me123]

Is "Meet the Managers" actually genuine and not just a talking-shop, then? I suppose it's something that ScotRail are forced to do - FirstBus would not want its victims talking to its management if they could avoid it!

It seems to be genuine; it definitely gives us seemingly honest answers even if they aren't the ones people want. The one I mentioned was raised on a MTM once. FSR answered that they would investigate an increase and it happened not long after.

Personally I say increase the basic and do away with commission. They should be professional enough to check tickets, and if they don't then the CCTV will show if they are in back cab or not - if in back cab before all tickets checked, then disciplinary hearing.

That should work. I was astonished when I heard that they got commission; they're not actually "selling" in the same way that a car dealer would sell and the passengers have no option but to buy a ticket (or go to jail). I would be in favour of that being implemented.

 

[Darandio]

Although not totally the same sort of incident (and I won't name the service but it is related to Northern Rail in the North East), we often have a delayed service because of a female guard who insists on being over-friendly with the customers. Now, I am not against the friendliness side of it, but when she sometimes doesn't actually proceed to the rear of the train to open the doors until the train has been stationary for 20-30 seconds, it can be annoying especially if it happens at 3-4 stations and we get to the mainline and have to wait to cross into the mainline station because we missed the path.

 

[ashworth]

I posted this elsewher a coupe of weeks ago but perhaps this is also relevent to this post!
Last Saturday (23rd May) I was travelling on the 1845 Manchester Piccadilly-Sheffield local Hope valley service when a man boarded at Edale with an invalid ticket. Whilst I agree that the man should not have been allowed to get away with this was it right that the train should have been delayed by almost 10 minutes resulting in myself and a number of other passengers missing their connections at Sheffield?

The man had boarded the train trying to travel to Sheffield with the following ticket which is not valid for travel by train:
The South Yorkshire Peak Explorer
The South Yorkshire Peak Explorer gives one day's bus and tram travel around South Yorkshire and the northern part of the Peak District.

I don't know whether it was a genuine mistake or not but he was very annoyed when the conductor on the train tried to tell him it was not valid.
The train which was up until then running on time was held for over well over 5 minutes at Hope whilst the conductor spoke to the conductor on a train travelling in the opposite direction and she also made a telephone call to arrange for the train to be met by the police at Sheffield.
When the train arrived in Sheffield we had to wait for another 2 or 3 minutes before the train doors were finally released.

The train should have arrived in Sheffield at 2002 but it was 2012 before we were eventually able to get off. By this time I had missed my 2011 connection to Nottingham, but fortunately there was another train in 30 minutes. Two other elderly passengers, who were travelling with a Derbyshire Wayfarer Ticket, had also missed the Nottingham train but were travelling to Langley Mill and there was not another train that stopped there until 2138. They had a wait on a Saturday evening of 90 minutes and I don't think that they would be able to get any compensation or help with their onward journey as they were travelling with a local rail/bus rover ticket and not a regular rail ticket.

So back to my question.
The person should not have been allowed to get off free without paying, but should the train have been delayed causing so much inconvenience to those of us who did have a valid ticket?

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Believe it or not some guards actually try to maintain records in delaying the most trains/for the longest time, a bloody pain in the arse when you want them to get out of my station on time.

 

[First class]

Believe it or not some guards actually try to maintain records in delaying the most trains/for the longest time, a bloody pain in the arse when you want them to get out of my station on time.

I doubt it, although obviously mess room rumours do exist.

A guard has to keep an account, and provide a reasonable explanation why the train was delayed.

Some options in Merseyrail are:

Disabled Passenger awaiting ramp.
Proceeding on yellows.
Awaiting BTP.

They need to provide precise information, (signals, reference numbers etc...), and most significant delays are investigated to determine who should pay compensation, and how much.

A guard deliberately delaying a train would find it hard to fabricate a story. (and certainly in Merseyrail, would lose their job for gross misconduct/ falsifying documents).

 

[ukrob]

I doubt it, although obviously mess room rumours do exist.

A guard has to keep an account, and provide a reasonable explanation why the train was delayed.

Some options in Merseyrail are:

Disabled Passenger awaiting ramp.
Proceeding on yellows.
Awaiting BTP.

They need to provide precise information, (signals, reference numbers etc...), and most significant delays are investigated to determine who should pay compensation, and how much.

A guard deliberately delaying a train would find it hard to fabricate a story. (and certainly in Merseyrail, would lose their job for gross misconduct/ falsifying documents).

Why are any of those unique to Merseyrail?

 

[First class]

Where on earth did I say they were unique to Merseyrail?

I just said some options on the Merseyrail form where xxx...

I can't claim to know about any other TOC, because I don't work for them.

Bit of a pointless reply from you really which was intended to undermine me.

 

[ukrob]

Where on earth did I say they were unique to Merseyrail?

I just said some options on the Merseyrail form where xxx...

I can't claim to know about any other TOC, because I don't work for them.

Bit of a pointless reply from you really which was intended to undermine me.

It was the fact that you said 'some options on Merseyrail are' as opposed to 'some options are' that resulted in the question, but I won't apologise for it as it was a legitimate question.

And, of course, those reasons are legitimate reasons for delaying a train.

 

[TDK]

I already know of the commission but that isn't a good enough reason to delay trains - nor explain what the proper procedures are

It is totally unacceptable for the guards to delay a service for revenue reasons and unprofessional, the procedure is safety first, punctuality and then revenue

 

[ffcphone]

ashworth...the scenario you describe is a difficult one to know the best answer to. I guess a conductor working for Northern Rail is best placed to comment on the correct procedure if one exists.

I have little experience of Hope station other than from the old Regional Railways Alphaline service days when we did not stop there as I recall. Depending on the frequency of services from Hope, perhaps "turfing" the passenger out there and leaving them to fend for themselves was not the best way forward for both parties (Northern Rail and the passenger).

However, it would seem the conductor took the opportunity to discuss the case with a conductor on a train going the other way at Hope...if a first time scenario then I think this was a sensible idea, albeit to the detriment of your train's punctuality.

When the passenger started getting feisty, a call ahead to arrange for BTP was the only option and a wait of "2-3 minutes" before the doors were unlocked at Sheffield, presumably to allow BTP to position themselves, is again not that long. I've had a similar situation at Bolton station when BTP boarded a 185 from the guard's door and traversed the whole train looking for a miscreant "hiding" in one of the toilets. The guard came over the PA suggesting there was a small problem and the doors would be opened shortly.

Your original journey allowed only a 9 minute connection time at Sheffield whereas you were actually delayed 1 minute more. I sympathise with your frustration at the missed connection but a 10 minute delay on a 77 minute journey, due to "exceptional circumstances", should be more than acceptable in my honest opinion. Spare a thought for the elderly couple trying to get to Langley Mill and the 90 minute wait.

If the passenger was trying to pull a fast one then clearly he's the one you should be directing your annoyance at, not Northern Rail.

Sorry.

F

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm aware of one fairly regular passenger in Yorkshire who travels with a few bags but no ticket and no ID. I'm sure guards and RP staff in the region will also be aware of her.
So the question arising from this thread about a Guard's judgement in such cases is: should staff delay their services everytime she boards a train, or, recognising the frequency of her ticketless travel, prioritise timekeeping and, as a consequence, let her "get away with it" (which is exactly what those staff I've watched do when she's on their train)?

BTW and in the kindest possible terms, she doesn't look as if she has many friends and so is unlikely to be inspiring others to copy her "trick" for a few hour's free heating.
[no wonder there's all this talk of those station barrier schemes - grrrrr]

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I doubt it, although obviously mess room rumours do exist.

A guard has to keep an account, and provide a reasonable explanation why the train was delayed.

Some options in Merseyrail are:

Disabled Passenger awaiting ramp.
Proceeding on yellows.
Awaiting BTP.

They need to provide precise information, (signals, reference numbers etc...), and most significant delays are investigated to determine who should pay compensation, and how much.

A guard deliberately delaying a train would find it hard to fabricate a story. (and certainly in Merseyrail, would lose their job for gross misconduct/ falsifying documents).

Explain to me then, how the same single guard of a company I won't disclose, always manages to be on a train that arrives late, departs even later, through them purposely walking the length of their train or finding other various reasons to delay said trains, and how that TOC rarely chases up these delays by said guard, and yet obviously has built up this reputation of being one of the guards with the most delays in the TOC and if that you mention their name to any other member of that company and they will say the same thing... then it begs the question, do they have something on this TOC, that prevents them from getting sacked/reprimanded etc?

 

[rosscbrown]

This really annoys me too. I travel between Edinburgh and Edinburgh Park each day for work and it is very rare for the train doors to be released quickly after arrival into Edinburgh Park as the guard is often half way down the carriage checking tickets.

I really don't see why a ticket check is needed between Waverley and Haymarket as both stations are are closed off with ticket barriers. Perhaps I'm just impatient - 90 seconds or so in not that long. But still!

 

[djw1981]

But, I can do South Gyle - Edinburgh Park, or even some of the Fife stations / west Calder line stations to Edinburgh park without a ticket as they are not barriered and I wouldn't pass through barriers at Waverley or Haymarket if just changing trains Waverley West End Bay trains only).

Even if I was 'caught' once a week in each direction, I'm still traveling 4 times for free (or to put it another way, 80% discount). Increassing the number of ticket checks increases the chances of catching me.

NB. I don't do this route as I live in Glasgow, but a fair number of Glasgow commuters (esp students) do similar into / through Glasgow.

 

[ashworth]

Your original journey allowed only a 9 minute connection time at Sheffield whereas you were actually delayed 1 minute more. I sympathise with your frustration at the missed connection but a 10 minute delay on a 77 minute journey, due to "exceptional circumstances", should be more than acceptable in my honest opinion. Spare a thought for the elderly couple trying to get to Langley Mill and the 90 minute wait.

If the passenger was trying to pull a fast one then clearly he's the one you should be directing your annoyance at, not Northern Rail.

Sorry.

F

In always knew that I was not leaving much time at Sheffield and the couple from Langley Mill should not have relied on it either. However, I was aware that there was another train to Nottingham 30 minutes later and was half expecting to be on the later train when leaving Manchester.

I was just annoyed that the train having been on time the whole journey, and by then I was expecting to get the earlier train at Sheffield, was delayed so late in the journey at Hope.

Thanks for your reply, I know I was cutting it fine at Sheffield, and was hoping for a bit of good luck to get me home early. I just wondered whether the guard was right to delay a train at the inconvenience of all the other passengers.