Guards or conductors?

[Kentish Paul]

Does that mean that Southeastern High Speed services are actually DOO, even though it is intended that they all run with an On Board Manager?

If the OBM's main duty is tickets, is a train permitted to run without one if none is available? Except east of Ashford, every station which is served by High Speed is gated, which means that there shouldn't be many passengers without tickets. While certainly desirable, a dedicated ticket inspector on every train might therefore be considered not utterly essential.

As far as I know the OBM is there for the possible evacuation procedures in the London tunnels and as such it is a saftey critical role.
When two units run together the OBM has to remain in the rear 6 carriages to help with a possible evacuation into the tunnel. The driver looking after the the front 6 carriages.

As to your first point, no, a train cannot run without an OBM.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Weren't (or still are?) guards on c2c services known as "Train Captains". I swear they only worked 12 car trains.

 

[feline1]

Weren't (or still are?) guards on c2c services known as "Train Captains". I swear they only worked 12 car trains.

Are their drivers called "helmsmen"?

 

[Phil.]

I was just wondering if there's a difference between a 'train guard' and a 'conductor'?
Are they just different names for the same thing, or are they actually different jobs?
When speaking over the train's PA system, I usually hear "This is your conductor speaking" but I often hear the same member of staff referred to as "the guard".
Also I often seem to be on trains where there either is no guard, or there's only a guard for part of the journey (eg some Gatwick Express services between Brighton and London Victoria, where the guard gets on or off at Gatwick).
What's the rationale?

(sorry if this is in the wrong sub-forum!)

A better question might be, "why are they called guards. What are they guarding"?

 

[northwichcat]

Weren't (or still are?) guards on c2c services known as "Train Captains". I swear they only worked 12 car trains.

Northern guards should have got that name then on Calder Valley they could announce "smooth sailings" where 158s are used and "rough sailings" where Pacers are used.

 

[E-Rail]

GNER guards were titled 'Customer Operations Leaders' in the first franchise although some dual-rollers were 'Customer Service Manager-Operations'.

If I remember rightly, if a GNER service had a CSM-O, it wouldn't have a COL. The services with a COL would have a lower grade CSM who was the line manager for the crew and responsible for first class.

The services with a restaurant also had a Customer Service Leader who was only the restaurant manager.

I remember reading somewhere that when the 2005 franchise started, Sea Containers ordered the regrading to Train Guards/Team Leaders (later Crew Leaders).

 

[BestWestern]

On Southern stock, door key switches do not work quite like that...

You are not ever supposed to leave your keys "in the panel" unattended, that much is true. However, the door control panels on any Southern stock with which I am familiar MUST be activated by a key inserted in the DKS and turned to the "Active" position.

Chances are that the OP saw a 377 in use; in this case the vestibule door panel will not function without the DKS active (including handset/CCTV), except for the bell button being active a few seconds after interlock is achieved to facilitate "2" being given on the bell before the key is turned back to "Active" for the train to be observed leaving the platform. The reason for this is that the DKS must be turned off in order for the local door to be closed, as the DKS will break the overall door closing routine for the local door if it is "Active". However, you can only close the doors with the DKS turned to "Active".

In any case, on all Southern stock, conductors may only open doors (where applicable on 171/455 traction) and dispatch with a key inserted and turned to "Active" in the relevant panel throughout the process. Exact specifics and local door procedures vary on all stock.

That's very interesting; I presume all Turbo/Electrostar efforts must be the same then?

As you say, a plethora of different ways of doing it - HSTs are a different bag altogether! (especially ones with SDO!)

 

[TheEdge]

As you say, a plethora of different ways of doing it - HSTs are a different bag altogether! (especially ones with SDO!)

Then of course the is the 37 with Mk2s! Whistles and green flags!

 

[40129]

IIRC on a cl-153 and cl-323 the key can be removed with the DKS active. This can cause embarrassment/confusion when the guard forgets to de-activate one DKS before trying to activate another one. I know of at least one occasion where the driver thought the guard wanted him to stop.

However, on cl-170 and cl-350 the key cannot normally be removed if the HKS is active. The exception is that it can on the salon panels on cl-350. On both types the DKS will de-activate once the train reaches a certain speed. Also on cl-350 the cab DKS and saloon DKS use different keys so it is possible to accidentally leave the cab DKS active and then try to activate a saloon DKS. To further complicate things on cl-350, when using the saloon panels the guard does not have to physically turn the key to de-activate the DKS whereas in the cab he/she does

 

[gimmea50anyday]

They slso use whistles and flags on thunderbird drags, particularly where theres no RA indicators. In the case of Durham southbound, the skip has to pass the signal in order to fit the train at the correct position on the platform. This is also the case if a mk4 set is in reverse formation, the 91 will pass the signal. Signal reverts to red, yet the train is still despatched. This is because the train has already passed the signal on a proceed aspect, otherwise the train would have stopped short!

Wonder if we will use flags and whistles when we get the 442's? Or will they modify the GatEx DVT's so we can use bell buzzers?...

 

[scotsman]

GNER guards were titled 'Customer Operations Leaders' in the first franchise although some dual-rollers were 'Customer Service Manager-Operations'.

If I remember rightly, if a GNER service had a CSM-O, it wouldn't have a COL. The services with a COL would have a lower grade CSM who was the line manager for the crew and responsible for first class.

The services with a restaurant also had a Customer Service Leader who was only the restaurant manager.

I remember reading somewhere that when the 2005 franchise started, Sea Containers ordered the regrading to Train Guards/Team Leaders (later Crew Leaders).

At the beginning of GNER,

Customer Operations Manager - Guard
Customer Service Manager - Crew Leader/Chief Steward
Customer Service Manager (Operations) - Guard and CSM
Restaurant Manager - Duh.

 

[Esmenfif]

I'm not a xenophobe by nature, but I find the creeping Americanism of British terminology to be very vexing. I'm sure that this is just another example, much as "truck" is displacing "lorry". "Train manager" is plain ugly.

 

[scotsman]

I'm not a xenophobe by nature, but I find the creeping Americanism of British terminology to be very vexing. I'm sure that this is just another example, much as "truck" is displacing "lorry". "Train manager" is plain ugly.

Would you prefer, say, 'Conductor'?

 

[reb0118]

Are their drivers called "helmsmen"?

I actually called my driver that this afternoon. "Helmsman, are you in complete control of this vessel". I was a wee bit concerned that he was lost.

 

[tsr]

Then of course the is the 37 with Mk2s! Whistles and green flags!

Same with dodgy 455s...

"Hello Driver. Yep, bell's broken again."

 

[reb0118]

A better question might be, "why are they called guards. What are they guarding"?

We are SafeGuarding the safety of the train, and of the passengers therein (where provided).

 

[Esmenfif]

Would you prefer, say, 'Conductor'?

That's part of what I meant by "Americanisation". "Conductor" is what Americans have always called what we are meant to call "guards". "Conductor", to me, meant a fellow who checked fares on a bus.

 

[reb0118]

I think the most senior Senior Conductor was this man?

There is also a British Army appointment of Conductor.

One definition of conductor is "leader".

 

[tony6499]

All changed back in 1988 with the train crew concept, guards then became conductors , senior conductors and Trainmen G or Trainmen D depending.

Before then you had passenger guards or freight guards which was a diminishing role at the time anyway.

 

[RichardKing]

On Southern stock, door key switches do not work quite like that...

You are not ever supposed to leave your keys "in the panel" unattended, that much is true. However, the door control panels on any Southern stock with which I am familiar MUST be activated by a key inserted in the DKS and turned to the "Active" position.

Chances are that the OP saw a 377 in use; in this case the vestibule door panel will not function without the DKS active (including handset/CCTV), except for the bell button being active a few seconds after interlock is achieved to facilitate "2" being given on the bell before the key is turned back to "Active" for the train to be observed leaving the platform. The reason for this is that the DKS must be turned off in order for the local door to be closed, as the DKS will break the overall door closing routine for the local door if it is "Active". However, you can only close the doors with the DKS turned to "Active".

In any case, on all Southern stock, conductors may only open doors (where applicable on 171/455 traction) and dispatch with a key inserted and turned to "Active" in the relevant panel throughout the process. Exact specifics and local door procedures vary on all stock.

When a Guard (or Conductor) working a 377 is ready for the doors to be shut (apart from his/her one, of course), what is the usual procedure? I ask because I have seen some Guards give approximately 8 rings on the bell and others just give one click on a button (illuminated blue) prior to giving the 2 bells to inform the driver that they are ready to start moving.

I would also be interested to know what the Guard's dispatch procedure is on 442 and 171 units.

Thanks in advance!

 

[BestWestern]

When a Guard (or Conductor) working a 377 is ready for the doors to be shut (apart from his/her one, of course), what is the usual procedure? I ask because I have seen some Guards give approximately 8 rings on the bell and others just give one click on a button (illuminated blue) prior to giving the 2 bells to inform the driver that they are ready to start moving.

I would also be interested to know what the Guard's dispatch procedure is on 442 and 171 units.

Thanks in advance!

That sounds like the 'Ten Bells' method of operation. The Guard instructs the Driver to close the doors using the buttons in the cab (Southern stock being set up for DOO also) via a bell/buzzer code. I believe (might be wrong) this happens if the Guard is dispatching from the rear cab, as the cab door control buttons are only active when the Driver is keyed in.

 

[RichardKing]

That sounds like the 'Ten Bells' method of operation. The Guard instructs the Driver to close the doors using the buttons in the cab (Southern stock being set up for DOO also) via a bell/buzzer code. I believe (might be wrong) this happens if the Guard is dispatching from the rear cab, as the cab door control buttons are only active when the Driver is keyed in.

That does make sense. However, I have seen this method used on the vestibule door panel.

 

[prod_pep]

Merseyrail still use the term 'guard' and some even introduce themselves over the PA as such: "Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, this is your guard speaking."

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Then of course the is the 37 with Mk2s! Whistles and green flags!

Except for the 37s and Mk2s on the Cumbrian Coast duties where no green flags are used. The Guard gives the right away to the Driver via a hand held Walky Talky. Apparently the Northern risk assessment decided the use of flags etc was unsafe and impractical due to the fact that at many stations the Guard actually had to unlock the doors and dispatch from an intermediate door rather than the guards van.

 

[168lover]

Except for the 37s and Mk2s on the Cumbrian Coast duties where no green flags are used. The Guard gives the right away to the Driver via a hand held Walky Talky. Apparently the Northern risk assessment decided the use of flags etc was unsafe and impractical due to the fact that at many stations the Guard actually had to unlock the doors and dispatch from an intermediate door rather than the guards van.

Similar dispatch method on the chiltern slam door set and I think the plug door sets but may be wrong.

 

[Phil.]

We are SafeGuarding the safety of the train, and of the passengers therein (where provided).

I thought that the history of the Guard's job had been lost. You've just confirmed it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Merseyrail still use the term 'guard' and some even introduce themselves over the PA as such: "Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, this is your guard speaking."

Except that he's not "your guard", he's the guard.

 

[northwichcat]

Except that he's not "your guard", he's the guard.

Airline pilots always seem to identify themselves as 'your captain' so why can't a guard refer to themselves as 'your guard'?

 

[NX]

I always refer to myself and a Guard, I introduce myself on the PA as "Good Evening ladies and Gentleman Train Guard speaking......."

I also tell them where I am in the train "I can be found at the XXXX of this XXXX car train should you require any assistance enroute"

Saves all this bull**** "THIS IS A SECRUITY ANNOUCEMENT", the the computerised/autoqueue speech no listens to.

NX

 

[notadriver]

Except on Southeastern High Speed where they are called On Board Managers (OBM) and also perform no dispatch duties.

Does that really matter ?

 

[scotsman]

I actually called my driver that this afternoon. "Helmsman, are you in complete control of this vessel". I was a wee bit concerned that he was lost.

I can imagine you doing that...