Guards Comments when leaving York.

[celeborne]

I was on a train leaving York for Harrogate. We left 4 mins late. the guard said that we were late departing due to an incompetent signaller running Transpennine and East Coast services first. I asked the signaller concerned and he ran the 2 late running express trains first then the Harrogate. This was correct regulation not incompetence. Why are the guards allowed to get away with these awful comments?

 

[Suraggu]

Guards do not always get away with it. A member of public and/or railway managers could of reported him.

 

[Tomnick]

A minority of traincrew, sadly, believe that theirs is the only train on the railway, and that any regulating decision that causes them any sort of delay must be the result of incompetence.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I guess that if your a guard on a top link express working then you might think yours is the only train on the network and even though it isn't, from the point of view of a passenger if a signaler stuck an already late running local stopper formed of a 142 with only 1 working engine in front of you then it could well be viewed as incompetant or at very least a bit silly.

On this occasion I would have most likely had a good chuckle at the I assume Northern Guard and left it at that. I don't myself go in for reporting rail staff unless a great personal disservice has occured!

 

[Aictos]

A minority of traincrew, sadly, believe that theirs is the only train on the railway, and that any regulating decision that causes them any sort of delay must be the result of incompetence.

I disagree, the number of times I have late departures because of "regulation" I try my best to get right time departures and yes sometimes regulation is needed while other times its a case of hello, train waiting here.

The only other thing I detest about certain signallers is they don't communicate with staffed stations with regards to service alterations and they wonder why comments made available by the OP happen.

So I can understand why the guard said what he said, that said the majority of signallers on my routes are quite good.

 

[Tomnick]

I'm struggling to keep up with all that. If a late start is justified in the name of regulation, then so be it - the commendable effort made by the platform staff to complete station duties on time doesn't change that, does it? I'm sure they do overlook a train from time to time, usually because they're busy dealing with something elsewhere on the panel - I wouldn't call that incompetence either. The same applies to dealing with staffed stations - sometimes there just isn't time to, especially when (understandably) they don't answer first time. How does that relate to the comment made by the guard though?

 

[NX]

I find it surprising from my colleagues who simply don't understand the role of signallers, of course they set routes etc. I mean they wider role of regulation and the 'bigger picture'.

For example running a HOBC train in front of a semi fast passenger, the freight weights close to 3000t top speed 60 so is going to take an age to get going from multiple signal checks if following the passenger, let it go first and the passenger wasn't checked at all!

My collegeus didn't get the bigger picture.

NX

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. It often is.

The guard and passengers on the stopper are going to grump if their train is delayed for an express. The guard and passengers on the express are going to grump if their train is stuck behind a stopper.

I'm guilty of grumping when the signallers on the WCML chuck a late-running freight out in front of my train home, making me 10+ minutes late, but checking the fast accelerating all-stations passenger train is probably better overall than checking an enormous container freight train that will take a billion years to get going from a red.

 

[trentside]

That's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. It often is.

Indeed, you are. I think most of us are guilty about having a grump at the signaller - it's not till you visit a box and see things on the grand scale that you realise what a difficult job they have, and decisions to make in very short spaces of time.

There's ways and means of communicating this sort of thing to passengers - but I don't think the way described in the OP is it. I personally say things like "Sorry ladies and gents, we're just being held here for a couple of minutes for another train to pass us. Sorry for any inconvenience, we should be moving shortly". Doesn't blame anyone, and explains why we're waiting

 

[GarethJohn]

Is there a ''Code of Conduct'' in what you can say to the customer in terms of failings on the employer or other area's of the industry. If he's not employed by NR then is he OK to crticise them openly?
Are Railways under the same pressure as Lorry Drivers in that if a delivery arrives late then the whole lot is rejected? And therefore Freight may get priority in cases.
I would much rather a Passenger train being delayed for 20 minutes then a Container full of Bananas getting thrown away because they were 30 minutes late.

 

[telstarbox]

I've not seen any banana plantations around York station recently.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Having identified the likely services in question, the stopper could probably have gone out in front of the TPE without holding it up too much. However, as a Class 1 train, I suspect the TPE had priority over the Class 2 stopper.

Looking at TRUST, the root cause appears to have been a Track Circuit failure...at Morecambe!

 

[GB]

Everyone has a moan at some point. Drivers moan about signallers, signallers moan about drivers, everyone moans about managers...but to call someone incompetent in such a public manner is pretty poor and unprofessional.

 

[scotsman]

Is there a ''Code of Conduct'' in what you can say to the customer in terms of failings on the employer or other area's of the industry. If he's not employed by NR then is he OK to crticise them openly?
Are Railways under the same pressure as Lorry Drivers in that if a delivery arrives late then the whole lot is rejected? And therefore Freight may get priority in cases.
I would much rather a Passenger train being delayed for 20 minutes then a Container full of Bananas getting thrown away because they were 30 minutes late.

There are standards expected by TOCs of their employees - all will have some form of policy on what can and can't be said over the PA system.

Of course, what's said over the PA can vary greatly with what's said to individual passengers

 

[GarethJohn]

There are standards expected by TOCs of their employees - all will have some form of policy on what can and can't be said over the PA system.

Of course, what's said over the PA can vary greatly with what's said to individual passengers

The Guard is the one who gets it in the ear'ole though and could have had some grief earlier in the week so decided to ''pass the buck'' or blame someone with far more influence on the delay than himself.

 

[yorkie]

There are standards expected by TOCs of their employees....

...true, but those standards vary by TOC. Put it this way, if someone asked me to guess which TOC's train this was on out of York, I'd not be guessing any of the other TOCs

I did once have an EC guard moan about a regulation decision, but he didn't say anything unprofessional in my view, and given the decision was to halt the 2000 from Kings Cross non-stop to York at Doncaster so that a tamper train limited to about 20mph could get ahead of it was a rare example of actual incompetence, though that word wasn't used.

 

[Tomnick]

Just to clarify that I wasn't passing comment on the quality of this, or any other, regulating decision - I've certainly seen some rather bizarre examples! On the face of it, it does seem as though the Harrogate train could have run first, but, of course, we don't know what else was going on or what might have happened after the signalman committed himself to making the first move. There's no need for telling it to the public like that though, especially without being in full possession of the facts!

 

[Alistair G.]

As a signaller it's difficult to bite my tounge when I'm on a train and I hear such announcements made. When I was on East Coast recently and the guard made a similar remark about regulation I couldn't help but quiz him further when he came to check my ticket. Didn't want to make him look foolish in front of other passengers but reminded him that the explanation may be more complex than what he sees as a simple regulation decision.

As for putting machines in front of passenger trains (as this seems to crop in a few examples) there are good reason to do this, the most common one being that it could help a potential over run of a possession, a regular reason to run them on some of my panels at my box. It will only usually be for short distances that this happens, but a delay on machines, could mean knock on effects for potentially hours to come

We are all professionals on the railway and I'm sure we all do our job to the best of our abilities, so next time you see something happening and you think "well that was a daft move"..... There just maybe more to it than meets the eye

 

[Flamingo]

I know I would expect a "please explain" if I'd said that. However, I do believe in naming whoever carries responsibility for the delay, for example, rather than the bland "First Great Western apologises for the signal failure", I will say "Network Rail are having a problem with their signals"!

 

[Alistair G.]

However, I do believe in naming whoever carries responsibility for the delay, for example, rather than the bland "First Great Western apologises for the signal failure", I will say "Network Rail are having a problem with their signals"!

That may be very true but things like cable theft is something that although network rail are having a problem with (and trying to tackle with relative success) it isn't really their "fault!", but by just saying network rail that sets passengers immediately thinking of poor equipment or incompetent staff!.

 

[CallySleeper]

Signallers make decisions which can sometimes benefit some passengers over others. Sometimes they can make mistakes. But calling a signaller publicly incompetent is unprofessional.

If it was me, I'd be making a complaint to Northern cc: NR.

e: and no, I'm not a signaller by profession.

 

[Flamingo]

That may be very true but things like cable theft is something that although network rail are having a problem with (and trying to tackle with relative success) it isn't really their "fault!", but by just saying network rail that sets passengers immediately thinking of poor equipment or incompetent staff!.

If it's cable theft, trespass, weather - related or fatality of course that is the reason I will give. However, if it's the usual track circuit failure or points failure, that is hard to put down to circumstances outside NR control...

 

[dcsprior]

A few years ago, I was on an EC train at Edinburgh, bound for Kings Cross - and heard an announcement that went something like "For some reason, goodness knows why, the signaller has decided its best to let an empty train go ahead of an express with passengers on board. I really am sorry for this delay."

I think most of the passengers appreciated the honesty, even if it shouldn't have been said.

 

[455driver]

A few years ago, I was on an EC train at Edinburgh, bound for Kings Cross - and heard an announcement that went something like "For some reason, goodness knows why, the signaller has decided its best to let an empty train go ahead of an express with passengers on board. I really am sorry for this delay."

I think most of the passengers appreciated the honesty, even if it shouldn't have been said.

Maybe the ECS had to get somewhere to form a passenger working and to hold it for the EC service would have caused further delays later on.
There is a much bigger picture (which the signaller can see) than the guard can see!

Long may the decent signallers continue to regulate so they can minimize overall delays even if it means one or two trains get delayed more than they would have if the signaller just sent them all booked order which would have meant the overall delays would have been much bigger!

Right after sticking up for our signalling colleagues I will now go and sit in a darkened room!

 

[bluenoxid]

I was on a train leaving York for Harrogate. We left 4 mins late. the guard said that we were late departing due to an incompetent signaller running Transpennine and East Coast services first. I asked the signaller concerned and he ran the 2 late running express trains first then the Harrogate. This was correct regulation not incompetence. Why are the guards allowed to get away with these awful comments?

Because they're narked and at the moment nobody is recording the announcements made on the buckets that are being used on that line.

 

[edwin_m]

A few years ago, I was on an EC train at Edinburgh, bound for Kings Cross - and heard an announcement that went something like "For some reason, goodness knows why, the signaller has decided its best to let an empty train go ahead of an express with passengers on board. I really am sorry for this delay."

I think most of the passengers appreciated the honesty, even if it shouldn't have been said.

To me that's acceptable where the comment reported by the OP isn't. It leaves open the possibility of there being a reason the announcer wasn't aware of, or even knew about but didn't want to say. For example the empty train probably doesn't need to make intermediate stops so will stay ahead. Maybe EC has even requested the empty train gets priority because it is urgently needed somewhere else?

This is a world away from publicly describing an industry colleague (even if working for another company) as incompetent. Especially as at York the ARS computer may have made that decision, so any incompetence might be with the people that defined its decision rules.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very poor. Just makes the railway look stupid.

Whilst you might hear an airline pilot blame air traffic control for a delay, he/she would never brand them incompetent.

 

[Tomnick]

Right after sticking up for our signalling colleagues I will now go and sit in a darkened room!

Sounds like a typical night shift to me! Thanks for the support though - it's always reassuring to see that some appreciate the bigger picture. To the other traincrew types - I'd thoroughly recommend arranging a visit, with biscuits, to your local box - see whether you can do a better job .

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Try working a stopper back to manchester from Stoke. 50/50 chance of leaving on time and then you get put into Platform 3 at Macclesfield and end up being ridiculously late for ONE XC service (or Virgin). Too many trains in too short period of time at Stoke towards Manchester always causes problems.

 

[thelongestroad]

Very poor. Just makes the railway look stupid.

Whilst you might hear an airline pilot blame air traffic control for a delay, he/she would never brand them incompetent.

Well...

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/delta-investigates-after-pilot-rants-atlanta-air-t/ngpdR/


It's not uncommon to hear pilots at certain European airlines be invariably publically scathing of Heathrow either over the PA onboard when it comes to slot delays etc.