Guardian article: SWR leaves passengers stranded

[Horizon22]

It makes a lot of sense to do something useful with the train, in a convenient path or otherwise. Terminating short at Salisbury would have left passengers for stations between there and Yeovil Junction stranded so it makes perfect sense to go as far as you can with the train then turn around and go back. What doesn’t make as much sense is why passengers weren’t told the bus was a myth and that travelling back to Salisbury would yield better hope of them getting home.

If the bus had been running earlier on in the of the day it was not necessarily a "myth" to the crew.

 

[robbeech]

If the bus had been running earlier on in the of the day it was not necessarily a "myth" to the crew.

Baffling why this simple data can’t be communicated to them. Perhaps not enough places for the man with the telegram to get water for his horse.

 

[Horizon22]

Baffling why this simple data can’t be communicated to them. Perhaps not enough places for the man with the telegram to get water for his horse.

It might not have been a myth to anyone. The buses might have been running and been delayed by the weather, or where on-route, or ended earlier. Maybe that information was transmitted through to Control, maybe it wasn't in a timely manner. There's a lot of variables and unknowns - all we know is that passengers were left stranded some of which may have been inevitable, some of which might have been avoidable. We go right back to the beginning regarding communication. I've been there where people have mentioned there's no onward transport at X for over an hour even though it's booked and that's literally the first anyone has heard.

I'm not saying this is right, but often times there's about 20 things happening and maybe it was missed (or it wasn't) and at busy times there's a lot of competing priorities. We're speculating a lot here but I think we can agree both internal & external communication could be better. In fact, this would resolve many of the issues that come up on these forums.

 

[Dr Hoo]

However, if it is strongly suspected that there will be disruption, should at least some extra buses be booked above the normal standby requirement?

There are two parts of the ORR, that bit that oversees safety, and the bit that deals with funding. I don’t see any help coming from the bit that deals with funding.

We still haven't got to the bottom of how, why and when the buses just 'disappeared'. With no rail staff available to supervise or monitor them at Yeovil Junction nobody in authority was there to notice them disappear (or deploy any extra standby buses).

The ORR is only involved in Network Rail funding, not TOCs (SWR in this case). Funding allocated to Network Rail's structures (in the face of climate change) has been progressively increased, as was widely noted after the Carmont incident, so I'm not sure what more can be expected in relation to the flooding on this route.

In any event ORR doesn't actually provide any funding. The funding envelope is set by the Secretary of state for Transport in the Statement Of Funds Available. I know that Chris Grayling doesn't always get a lot of gratitude on these forums but he actually said, "At this stage we expect around £47.9 billion to be spent on the railway across control period 6." (on 12 October 2017). This was a record level and a real terms increase, I understand. The ORR's role is to make sure as far as it can that Network Rail has a coherent plan to deliver its obligations and spend their money wisely and efficiently.

It seems to me that there has been quite a bit of "help" to Network Rail.

 

[Annetts key]

What about windless weeks? Lets see how it goes in Feb 2022 shall we?

What windless weeks? Do you have a link to any information?

We already have rising inflation and a massive current account deficit. And paying hefty interest on the government debt, it's not free money

And somebody has to buy the government debt. If the markets consider that the country is being reckless in issuing debt, then it'll demand higher interest rates to buy it.

If the majority of rich countries around the world are all doing a similar thing, it’s unlikely to upset the markets.

The ORR is only involved in Network Rail funding, not TOCs (SWR in this case). Funding allocated to Network Rail's structures (in the face of climate change) has been progressively increased, as was widely noted after the Carmont incident, so I'm not sure what more can be expected in relation to the flooding on this route.

In any event ORR doesn't actually provide any funding. The funding envelope is set by the Secretary of state for Transport in the Statement Of Funds Available. I know that Chris Grayling doesn't always get a lot of gratitude on these forums but he actually said, "At this stage we expect around £47.9 billion to be spent on the railway across control period 6." (on 12 October 2017). This was a record level and a real terms increase, I understand. The ORR's role is to make sure as far as it can that Network Rail has a coherent plan to deliver its obligations and spend their money wisely and efficiently.

It seems to me that there has been quite a bit of "help" to Network Rail.

Sorry, my comments were in reply to another post where the poster was implying that the ORR was one of the organisations that would not interfere when the railways (specifically TOCs) failed to operate a reasonable service.

 

[robbeech]

Sorry, my comments were in reply to another post where the poster was implying that the ORR was one of the organisations that would not interfere when the railways (specifically TOCs) failed to operate a reasonable service

If that was n response to me listing a group of bodies set out to provide some form of regulation it was an incredibly generic list not specifically to do with funding or not necessarily relevant to this specific incident but overall there are several organisations there with jobs to do that frequently don’t do them.

 

[43066]

Why should the taxpayer bale out a TOC, which fails to run its service properly? And if the TOC puts up its fares, it becomes less competitive, so less money to give to its shareholders. I thought the point of privatisation was to lessen the burden on taxpayers. Clearly, it hasn't worked out that way.

How is a TOC advising people not to travel, but still doing its best to put on a service under severely degraded conditions, “failing to run its service properly”?!

 

[IanXC]

Not knowing anything of the location, if the route beyond Yeovil Junction was not available, and Yeovil Town were available, is there any reason why the service could have not operated as booked to Yeovil Junction, then diverted to Town, before forming a service back east, going to Junction to pick up its booked stops? Therefore leaving any stranded passengers at Town, potentially with a staffed station(?) but at least nearby other facitlites.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I must confess a little bit of surprise that this item has been running for nearly a week yet we still seem to know that much about what happened or what SWR's actual plan was to help passengers that day. It still seems incredibly surprising that SWR would do what the original newspaper item says they did here but no other story seems to have emerged. This, despite my various expereiences being stranded for the odd hour or two by operating issues across their patch over the years. The issue was always sorted... eventually...

 

[norbitonflyer]

Not knowing anything of the location, if the route beyond Yeovil Junction was not available, and Yeovil Town were available, is there any reason why the service could have not operated as booked to Yeovil Junction, then diverted to Town, before forming a service back east, going to Junction to pick up its booked stops? Therefore leaving any stranded passengers at Town, potentially with a staffed station(?) but at least nearby other facitlites.

Yeovil Town station closed in 1966. I think you mean Pen Mill.

If the driver had the necessary route knowledge, if Control knew the buses were not actually coming, if there was time to run down to Pen Mill and back and still fit its path back to Salisbury, and if there were no conflicting moves on the Weymouth/Westbury route, at Pen Mill it might have been done. Those are four "ifs". There may be more I've not thought of

 

[bishdunster]

Not knowing anything of the location, if the route beyond Yeovil Junction was not available, and Yeovil Town were available, is there any reason why the service could have not operated as booked to Yeovil Junction, then diverted to Town, before forming a service back east, going to Junction to pick up its booked stops? Therefore leaving any stranded passengers at Town, potentially with a staffed station(?) but at least nearby other facitlites.

Err, because Yeovil Town station closed to passengers on 3rd October 1966 !

 

[pompeyfan]

Yeovil Town station closed in 1966. I think you mean Pen Mill.

If the driver had the necessary route knowledge, if Control knew the buses were not actually coming, if there was time to run down to Pen Mill and back and still fit its path back to Salisbury, and if there were no conflicting moves on the Weymouth/Westbury route, at Pen Mill it might have been done. Those are four "ifs". There may be more I've not thought of

I would imagine SWR control had too much of a high work load for that thought to cross their mind.

All west of England crew sign pen mill, if there was a genuine request by passengers and if the crew had fed it up the chain and it was felt necessary it probably could have been actioned.

 

[RT4038]

We still haven't got to the bottom of how, why and when the buses just 'disappeared'. With no rail staff available to supervise or monitor them at Yeovil Junction nobody in authority was there to notice them disappear (or deploy any extra standby buses).

I expect this is answered quite simply: following the incident the railway hired in the standby coaches, on an ad hoc basis (i.e. no fixed timetable due to the immediacy, and no doubt struggling to get operators anyway). Probably those drivers had already done a school contract that morning and probably would also be doing one the next morning too. When those drivers' hours were up (around 21h00 at the latest I expect) they took their coaches and went to bed. Coach companies in rural areas have few spare staff with late night availability at the best of times, and there is a driver shortage anyway. The rail industry staff, not so tuned in to such constraints of the coach industry (why would they be?) probably didn't think of this unravelling in the myriad of problems of their own......

 

[Horizon22]

I must confess a little bit of surprise that this item has been running for nearly a week yet we still seem to know that much about what happened or what SWR's actual plan was to help passengers that day. It still seems incredibly surprising that SWR would do what the original newspaper item says they did here but no other story seems to have emerged. This, despite my various expereiences being stranded for the odd hour or two by operating issues across their patch over the years. The issue was always sorted... eventually...

To be fair, it’s only the forum talking about this now which is why it’s been running for a week. SWR replied to the Guardian journalist whose son was involved and compensated them. They may well have compensated other passengers caught in the same predicament noting it’s now nearly 2 months ago.

Multiple posters have mentioned what the plan was, what happened on the day, where the issues were & how things could be improved. Some posters have mentioned the railway is essentially incompetent and uncaring and they have that right to say that. Some still have made other ludicrous claims.

I don’t think we’ll be gleaning much more from the day in this thread which seems to be going around in circles and is just speculation on what SWR did or didn’t do/plan/said.

 

[Annetts key]

I expect this is answered quite simply: following the incident the railway hired in the standby coaches, on an ad hoc basis (i.e. no fixed timetable due to the immediacy, and no doubt struggling to get operators anyway). Probably those drivers had already done a school contract that morning and probably would also be doing one the next morning too. When those drivers' hours were up (around 21h00 at the latest I expect) they took their coaches and went to bed. Coach companies in rural areas have few spare staff with late night availability at the best of times, and there is a driver shortage anyway. The rail industry staff, not so tuned in to such constraints of the coach industry (why would they be?) probably didn't think of this unravelling in the myriad of problems of their own......

If the day on which this happened was Wednesday 20th October, then 1L53 17:20 Waterloo to Exeter St Davids did not leave Yeovil Junction until 20:48. It’s believed this was the train that reported the flooding.

So based on your speculation, no busses or coaches using day time drivers would have been sent anyway…

 

[Jim the Jim]

What I would say is that food costs, hotel accommodation, taxis etc, provided by airlines, are compensation of sort, if not financial. How much better handled would this incident have been, if SWR had offered a £10 spend at a coffee shop. Go keep warm in Pret/a pub (etc), we'll sort the onward transport and a member of staff/app will notify when it's due.

I'd rather this over Delay Repay and a 3 hour stand in the cold.

Given coffee shops generally close much earlier than trains stop running, and walking into a random pub in a strange town late in the evening is something many people would be uncomfortable with, I'm not sure how well this would work in practice.

 

[43066]

Given coffee shops generally close much earlier than trains stop running, and walking into a random pub in a strange town late in the evening is something many people would be uncomfortable with, I'm not sure how well this would work in practice.

Out of interest, why should anyone be uncomfortable walking into a pub?!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Out of interest, why should anyone be uncomfortable walking into a pub?!

Because many pubs can be decidedly unwelcoming to non-locals/regulars!

By way of example, I randomly dropped in to a Peak District pub in a remote hamlet after a walk on a Friday afternoon, when it was full of farmers celebrating the end of the working week. I requested a hot drink and was refused service. (I didn't want an alcoholic drink because I had driven to the area.) I sort of get that the landlord didn't want to take a disproportionate time putting on the coffee machine and he didn't 'need' my custom.

(This wasn't in a tourist village like Castleton or Baslow, obviously.)

 

[Wychwood93]

Because many pubs can be decidedly unwelcoming to non-locals/regulars!

By way of example, I randomly dropped in to a Peak District pub in a remote hamlet after a walk on a Friday afternoon, when it was full of farmers celebrating the end of the working week. I requested a hot drink and was refused service. (I didn't want an alcoholic drink because I had driven to the area.) I sort of get that the landlord didn't want to take a disproportionate time putting on the coffee machine and he didn't 'need' my custom.

(This wasn't in a tourist village like Castleton or Baslow, obviously.)

To continue the off-topic bit - indeed we can! My local has history of seeing darts pausing mid-flight when a 'stranger' comes in! Not so much now, as there are fewer of us 'locals' left. To return to the thread - the idea of an SWR £10 voucher for a local 'Pret'/pub etc. is totally off the wall if you are aware where Yeovil Junction is! Let alone the guard having a ready supply of vouchers - each guard to have a voucher to cover the number of potential passengers?????

 

[TUC]

It is correct to say the railway did fail its passengers, however to blame the driver and guard is absurd. They had nothing to offer their passengers. There reportedly was no taxis on the rank to issue an IOU to (if they even existed, which they don’t, station staff can issue a docket, however guards only have vouchers which effectively rubber stamp a refund request when accompanied with a receipt and the original ticket)

My point is that, if you are the only member of staff with passengers unexpectedly at a deserted station you have a moral responsibility to ensure their safety. No, you may not have the ability to arrange taxis, but ensuring their safety surely involves remaining with them until Control confirms that someone else is taking responsibility and, for example, a member of staff is on their way to the station to manage the situation.

In fact, having a formal process for handover of responsibility, including the staff member currently present retaining responsibility until that handover, would provide the best clarity and reassurance all round

 

[RT4038]

If the day on which this happened was Wednesday 20th October, then 1L53 17:20 Waterloo to Exeter St Davids did not leave Yeovil Junction until 20:48. It’s believed this was the train that reported the flooding.

So based on your speculation, no busses or coaches using day time drivers would have been sent anyway…

Quite possibly, however I am sure that the request would have been made to operators but none were forthcoming. Hence the stranding....

 

[3rd rail land]

My point is that, if you are the only member of staff with passengers unexpectedly at a deserted station you have a moral responsibility to ensure their safety. No, you may not have the ability to arrange taxis, but ensuring their safety surely involves remaining with them until Control confirms that someone else is taking responsibility and, for example, a member of staff is on their way to the station to manage the situation.

In fact, having a formal process for handover of responsibility, including the staff member currently present retaining responsibility until that handover, would provide the best clarity and reassurance all round

Your logic makes a lot of sense however what should the crew do when instructed to work the train back towards London. Tell control they are refusing to work the train until buses/taxis/hitels have been arranged or another staff member comes to look after the stranded passengers?