Guard Voice / announcement Training?

[BestWestern]

With regard to the Heritage guys and girls, or anybody else who has a legitimate cause to have T-Keys or such with them, that's perfectly fair enough of course. But such people are unlikely to be waving it about and making a problem of themselves, and hence attracting the attention or interest of the Guard. I wasn't suggesting every passenger be individually frisked before boarding just in case they happen to have one, what I refer to is the type of group of youths seen in the video clip. There is a clear and quite easily seen difference between these two types of passenger! I'm not suggesting that the BTP should be summoned every time a Guard thinks somebody has something they shouldn't that might possibly relate to the railways, or we'd be having them out for every cyclist in an orange Hi-Viz! But equally if they had been called to those youths it is highly likely that their 'impliment' may very well have been removed from their posession I would think.

As for a possible T-Key replacement, it would of course be helpful it any new keys were a 'signed for' issue and Traincrew were obliged to look after and account for them. This doesn't happen at all at the moment, they are chucked about with no record of who has how many and are frequently dropped/left places etc. If everyone had a personal issue of two keys, with a charge and explanation for any replacements, we might be able to avoid them falling into the wrong hands. Admittedly it isn't the biggest problem in the world, but it only takes one idiot to cause a pretty major incident. It's a worrying thought.

 

[scotsman]

With regard to the Heritage guys and girls, or anybody else who has a legitimate cause to have T-Keys or such with them, that's perfectly fair enough of course...

Slight problem. 1 - I have no ID. 2 - I'm a 'yoof'

 

[BestWestern]

Scotsman, do you not carry some form of I.D. if you are heading to work on your heritage line? Your cards, a staff pass, even a membership card? Even if you don't, as I said if a person is sat down behaving themselves as a repsonsible passenger and railwayman would do, then a Guard is unlikely to feel the need to randomly question them as to whether they have a suspicious carriage key tucked away somewhere! And if it is hanging from a proper key clip on a belt along with a bunch of keys and is seemingly 'official' then that would tend be self-explanatory. And of course a perfectly reasonable explanation can be given should the question be asked. What I am talking about here are the kind of troublemaking 'yoofs' shown in the video clip, who have with them something which has been brought along for the purpose of maliciously interfering with a train.

 

[scotsman]

Scotsman, do you not carry some form of I.D. if you are heading to work on your heritage line? Your cards, a staff pass, even a membership card? Even if you don't, as I said if a person is sat down behaving themselves as a repsonsible passenger and railwayman would do, then a Guard is unlikely to feel the need to randomly question them as to whether they have a suspicious carriage key tucked away somewhere! And if it is hanging from a proper key clip on a belt along with a bunch of keys and is seemingly 'official' then that would tend be self-explanatory. And of course a perfectly reasonable explanation can be given should the question be asked. What I am talking about here are the kind of troublemaking 'yoofs' shown in the video clip, who have with them something which has been brought along for the purpose of maliciously interfering with a train.

All I have is a membership card! Cheers for the advice

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Heritage rail staff should carry some form of ID, PTS or SCWID (if your railway does those).
Why aren't the IDC panels locked with a BR1? AFAIK the BR1 is not used anywhere else on a desiro, and they are far more secure than a carriage key.

 

[Matt Taylor]

It doesn't really matter what you use to lock an IDC panel because whatever you use will soon be in general circulation among the ne'er do wells that travel on our system.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It doesn't really matter what you use to lock an IDC panel because whatever you use will soon be in general circulation among the ne'er do wells that travel on our system.

A BR1 would be harder to get hold of (and can't be opened with a lolly stick...), hence why I suggested it.

Is a BR1 in use anywhere else on a Desiro? (You don't have to say where - a yes or no will suffice, as I'm just wondering if there was a reason why they didn't use it).

 

[Matt Taylor]

I cannot think of anywhere on a Desiro that a BR1 would be of any use, but a T key doesn't unlock absolutely everything.

 

[BestWestern]

There seems to have been a general move away from the BR1 over the years from what I can tell, the only units we have which still use them for general operation are the 150/1's, which have BR1 slots on the DKS and self-locking saloon doors. Everything else from the 150/2's on uses T-Keys. Would certainly agree that converting locks back to BR1 might be a good move.

Heritage staff travelling would always do well to let the Guard know who you are, as any assistance from a travelling 'Competent Person' if things go belly-up is always likely to be welcome. And of course, you might get a free ride!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There seems to have been a general move away from the BR1 over the years from what I can tell, the only units we have which still use them for general operation are the 150/1's, which have BR1 slots on the DKS and self-locking saloon doors. Everything else from the 150/2's on uses T-Keys. Would certainly agree that converting locks back to BR1 might be a good move.

Interesting that there was a move away from a more secure option to a less secure option!

I cannot think of anywhere on a Desiro that a BR1 would be of any use, but a T key doesn't unlock absolutely everything.

I'm aware there are other locks in operation, but if less things are locked with T-Keys, IDC's may become more secure!
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Heritage staff travelling would always do well to let the Guard know who you are, as any assistance from a travelling 'Competent Person' if things go belly-up is always likely to be welcome. And of course, you might get a free ride!

I've never asked for a free ride, but there have been occasions when I have just signed off, sprinted over the footbridge and asked to buy a ticket, whereupon the guards bag, bardic, and uniform probably gave it away and I have got a free ride out of it!
But I commute on that line now, so I've got a gold card, so it doesn't make a difference to me.

Would you consider a HR staff member a competent person? Out of interest, for what situations would you request the help of a competent person? Some guards think heritage railways a big trainset, fly-by-night operation, when it is in fact the opposite.

 

[Matt Taylor]

If you have a valid PTS, SCWID or train working licence I would consider you to be a 'competent person'. However, I have a feeling that the rule book may see things differently.

Digressing slightly, I am curious to know quite what level of training is given on heritage railways in respect of working on or near the line, do you use the RSSB Rule Book?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If you have a valid PTS, SCWID or train working licence I would consider you to be a 'competent person'. However, I have a feeling that the rule book may see things differently.

Digressing slightly, I am curious to know quite what level of training is given on heritage railways in respect of working on or near the line, do you use the RSSB Rule Book?

The GCR are the only railway I know of that use the RSSB rule book completely. My railway (the MHR) use a version of the 1970(?) BR Rule Book, but it is being slowly reissued.

I suppose that the "competent person" would just need to have an understanding of the railways, and general rules and procedures (things to do in emergencies don't differ that much). Although whilst HR's are of a good standard, there are SOME staff that you wouldn't want "helping out".

BTW - these are not Network Rail PTS', SCWIDs or TWLs.

 

[BestWestern]

Indeed, any member of Traincrew or crew manager, perhaps P-Way staff, maybe even platform/dispatch staff etc. If it's an emergency I've always taken the view that somebody with some railway knowledge and a healthy dose of common sense will do! We're told that in events such as emergency evacuations and so on, you go for railway staff to help you first, failing that anybody in an authoritive uniform of some sort, and failing that just somebody who knows their backside from their elbow will do!

 

[pendolino]

There seems to have been a general move away from the BR1 over the years from what I can tell, the only units we have which still use them for general operation are the 150/1's, which have BR1 slots on the DKS and self-locking saloon doors. Everything else from the 150/2's on uses T-Keys. Would certainly agree that converting locks back to BR1 might be a good move.

Don't know if it would be possible on your 150s, but it has been known for a driver on a 456 to leave the cab to go back and, for example, reset a passcomm, leaving the BR1 in the DKS on the desk, only to find the cab door slammed shut on his return with no way of getting back in, no way of contacting the signaller, no Hi-Viz to exit onto the track by way of an emergency egress, no way of getting a block......

How embarrassing.

Anyway, back on topic: there's a conductor on Southern (I won't mention his name) whose final announcement usually goes along the lines of 'We are now approaching [terminus]. When leaving the train please ensure you take all your mobile phones, laptops, coats, scarves, bobbly hats, livestock, small children, artificial limbs....' etc. It certainly puts a smile on the punters' faces if they haven't heard it before, but it does get a bit wearing when you hear it for the nth time that week.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Railway experience would be of great use, but the specific term is 'competent person'. If I have an emergency situation I would rather have a railwayman with 30 years experience who has retired the previous day than a wet behind the ears boil in the bag manager who had passed their assessment the previous day-but it would be the newbie that would be the 'competent person'.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Railway experience would be of great use, but the specific term is 'competent person'. If I have an emergency situation I would rather have a railwayman with 30 years experience who has retired the previous day than a wet behind the ears boil in the bag manager who had passed their assessment the previous day-but it would be the newbie that would be the 'competent person'.

That'd be where the difficulty lies then. Not all heritage staff were/are railwaymen, but some of those that aren't are better than some who are!

 

[BestWestern]

" Don't know if it would be possible on your 150s, but it has been known for a driver on a 456 to leave the cab to go back and, for example, reset a passcomm, leaving the BR1 in the DKS on the desk, only to find the cab door slammed shut on his return with no way of getting back in, no way of contacting the signaller, no Hi-Viz to exit onto the track by way of an emergency egress, no way of getting a block......

How embarrassing. "



Hehe, I can quite imagine a DOO Driver being stuck inside his saloon, easily done! I heard of some delays to services when our delightful 150's first arrived due to Guards doing just that and locking themselves out of the cab. In the end they had some stickers made and put on the inside of the saloon doors! I can honestly say that I haven't done that, but I've managed worse. On dispatching a pair of 153's I somehow managed to end up with the 'Local Door' toggle switch in the closed position and hit the Door Close buttons. And there goes my Local door, hiss, bang...shut. Oh dear! Wouldn't normally be a big deal, but on a 153 if a Driver has his key in the desk the external crew buttons don't work, so the only solution is a walk up the platform and a slightly sheepish tap on his window!! :roll:

As for wet managers, lol, if the nasty stuff has hit the fan the time for preferences is probably later! It would probably do some of them a bit of good to have to help out in a bad situation like that.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Surely you carry a spare on you to get yourself back in your own cab?

 

[BestWestern]

Surely you carry a spare on you to get yourself back in your own cab?

Well some of us do, but not everybody it seems! I always like to have two T-Keys but must confess to sometimes taking a chance on just the one if I'm carrying armfulls of revenue gear as well. I only ever dropped one down the gap, a couple of days after a manager suggested that I ought to carry a spare!

 

[pendolino]

Surely you carry a spare on you to get yourself back in your own cab?

I've got a spare, but it's in my bag which would be....in the cab. In truth, if the driver doesn't take his BR1 then he's failed to secure the cab properly, so he could get a b****cking for that too. If he secures the cab correctly then locking himself out shouldn't be an issue.

I've not experienced this yet, but apparently there are a new batch of BR1s floating around my TOC which are badly made such that they sometimes don't fit the door/DKS, or if they do, you can't get them out again and they get stuck.

 

[BestWestern]

Oh dear, stuck BR1's?! Not helpful :cry: I sometimes find a new T-Key is a nightmare to use until it's worn down a bit. Do the cab doors on the 456's not self-lock behind the driver?

I clipped a spare BR1 to my belt when we got these old units, but of course a spare 'T' is dependant on availability of pocket space!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Oh dear, stuck BR1's?! Not helpful :cry: I sometimes find a new T-Key is a nightmare to use until it's worn down a bit. Do the cab doors on the 456's not self-lock behind the driver?

Are the keys issued now BR1B's? I think the older version was flat, and tended to break in the lock.

 

[pendolino]

Oh dear, stuck BR1's?! Not helpful :cry: I sometimes find a new T-Key is a nightmare to use until it's worn down a bit. Do the cab doors on the 456's not self-lock behind the driver?

Cab door to the saloon? Yes. But I think most people tend to use the side door although on 456s these are known for slamming shut quite abruptly, and being hard to hold open (bag in one hand, mug of tea in the other, no hand for holding the door open!) so some drivers prefer to enter the cab via the saloon.

I think the problem's been mostly with BR1s in the DKS, with the driver unable to get the key out when changing ends - we have quite short turnaround times on a lot of our jobs (5 minutes) so wrestling with the BR1 tends to result in a delay.

I find rubbing each face of the square part of a T key along a brick wall usually works!

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Are the keys issued now BR1B's? I think the older version was flat, and tended to break in the lock.

Yes BR1Bs technically, but still mostly known as a BR1.

 

[BestWestern]

An ex-NSE Guard was telling me a while back that when she worked 456's they had no door/brake interlock, with the inevitable 'hilarious' antics of idiots forcing them open etc. Presumably that has been changed by now?

 

[pendolino]

An ex-NSE Guard was telling me a while back that when she worked 456's they had no door/brake interlock, with the inevitable 'hilarious' antics of idiots forcing them open etc. Presumably that has been changed by now?

If you lose interlock on a 456 you lose traction and the brake will go into emergency. On a 455 however, you just lose traction, no emergency brake application. Er...I think. Or is it the other way round? There's some complicated rules regarding 455s and 456s in multiple when TIS'd which might relate to this (and which I think I need to go away and revise as I can't quite remember )

 

[BestWestern]

Lol, all these damn rules!! Ugly looking little things those 456's, do they run them around on their own or are they generally attached? Bit small for London suburban by themselves I'd imagine?

 

[pendolino]

Lol, all these damn rules!! Ugly looking little things those 456's, do they run them around on their own or are they generally attached? Bit small for London suburban by themselves I'd imagine?

They're a bit ugly yes, but the visibility out front is great, except at night as the headlight/markers are about as bright as candles, but you get used to that. Not so good out the side for seeing DOO monitors but you get used to that too. They're a bit light on their own so they can suffer from wheelslip during low adhesion, mostly when taking power. The driving position's not as comfortable as a 455 or 377 in my opinion. But having said all that I quite like them.

They do run on their own (as well as in multiple with 455s/456s) - 2 cars are regularly used on South Londons (Victoria to London Bridge via Denmark Hill) which can get a bit crowded at times (a very popular service - due to disappear when TfL take it over), on Tattenham Corner to Purley shuttles and sometimes on London Bridge to West Croydon via Tulse Hill services (but there seem to be more 3 and 6 cars on these recently now that the 377/3s have come up from the coast).

We're losing them soon to SWT as far as I'm aware.

 

[BestWestern]

Lots of chopping and changing with Southern's fleet lately it seems. Caught my first glimpse of a 313 on the Pompey's this week, quite an odd sight in green the first time you see one! Not as odd as that nasty GatEx paintjob on the Wessex's tho! Ugghh

 

[CarterUSM]

It really shouldn't be done I suppose, but it could be a good idea getting your own BR1B key cut, the most recent batch we recieved tend to break very easily, leaving the end of the key inside the keyhole.

 

[Safety365]

Anyway, back on topic: there's a conductor on Southern (I won't mention his name) whose final announcement usually goes along the lines of 'We are now approaching [terminus]. When leaving the train please ensure you take all your mobile phones, laptops, coats, scarves, bobbly hats, livestock, small children, artificial limbs....' etc. It certainly puts a smile on the punters' faces if they haven't heard it before, but it does get a bit wearing when you hear it for the nth time that week.

I know exactly who you are talking about. He likes to carry flasks of tea and hot-chocolate around too
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Surely you carry a spare on you to get yourself back in your own cab?

When working a 377 or a 171, I have one br1b round my neck on a lanyard and one in the holster on my belt. On 455 or 456 (rarely worked with a conductor) the one from the holster is in the DKS.