Guard using a green flag on an HST

[RupertW]

I remember many years ago getting off trains and seeing the guard wave a green flag before it left but this stopped when HSTs took over. Recently however after leaving an HST I decided to watch it leave but after the usual bat waving and whistle blowing the guard got in and waved a green flag at the person on the platform The person on the platform (standing closer to the front of the train) then waved his bat at the driver but nothing then seemed to happen for a while until the guard waved the green flag again and the train then left. I assume that the reason for the green flag would have been that the buzzer wasn't working but would be interested to know why it had to be waved twice. Is there a special rule for HSTs as compared to how it used to be done on loco-hauled trains?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the RA signal is in use, the guard will not use the buzzer but instead shows a green flag to the platform staff, who once the local door has been closed operate the RA device to indicate to the driver to depart. This happens in a number of locations regardless of whether there is a buzzer or not.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It varies by train, station and operator, but generally platform staff show bat to guard to say platform duties complete. Guard acknowledges this by wave/flag. Guard then locks doors. Guard then waves/flag to say doors locked. Platform staff raise bat to say “right away” guard signals driver, train departs. If buzzer not working platform staff can repeat guard signal to driver at some locations in some circumstances.

 

[tsr]

To answer the OP’s question, the driver may have requested the green flag/light was shown again, for example if they were not ready to see it, or didn’t see it clearly the first time. Or there could have been some other issue and the guard was confirming it was still safe to leave after a brief pause.

It varies by train, station and operator, but generally platform staff show bat to guard to say platform duties complete. Guard acknowledges this by wave/flag. Guard then locks doors. Guard then waves/flag to say doors locked. Platform staff raise bat to say “right away” guard signals driver, train departs. If buzzer not working platform staff can repeat guard signal to driver at some locations in some circumstances.

That’s a really garbled way of putting it. In fact, you’ve got it all mixed up.

Where platform staff and a guard (or conductor, train manager or other person fulfilling “guard” duties per the Rule Book) are working together for dispatch:

- The starter signal (where provided) and time must be checked by all concerned to ensure the train is permitted to leave.
- Any slam doors used by passengers must be firmly closed and nobody must be in a position where they can interfere with safe movement of the train.
- Platform staff provide the first “tip” to the guard when this station work is complete; the signal being a raised white dispatch bat, white light (in many enclosed station areas, or in darkness/fog/falling snow), or other clear handsignal as agreed.
- Guard acknowledges this, and closes power doors or locks the slam doors, depending on stock in question.
- The guard will still have their door open - the local door - which may be a crew or passenger door, depending on required procedure.
- The platform staff and guard will then complete the “train safety check”, to ensure all other doors are closed and locked, any Bodyside Indicator Lights not related to the local door are extinguished, the dispatch corridor is clear, and the starter signal has not changed to indicate a more restrictive signal aspect.
- When completely satisfied, the platform staff will provide the second “tip” with the white baton/light, which the guard will acknowledge, step onboard and close their local door. (Nb. The guard will not provide any indication that they believe the safety check is complete before the platform staff do.)
- Depending on procedure, the guard will then EITHER drop a droplight window and show a green flag/light, OR give the driver the correct signal on the buzzer (usually, but not always, 2 buzzes).
- If the platform has Right Away (RA) indicators, these are used to repeat the green flag indication to the driver. If the driver cannot see the flag/light indication and no RA indication is available, the platform staff will relay the signal by positioning themselves to show a green flag or light to the driver.
- The guard and platform staff will then observe the train’s departure, intervening to stop the train if there is an emergency.

Further note - there are plenty of locations where there are platform staff and RA indicators, but where the buzzer is usually always used on trains with guards...

(unless it fails, or the stock is not fitted with one, in which case you always default back to green flags/lights or an RA indication. In these locations, the guard showing a green flag will be very rare indeed. This may have been the case with the HST mentioned.)

Further note 2 - guards are not typically permitted to authorise departure by voice, except on certain specific types of heritage stock, which is why unambiguous flags and lights are used, not telephone communication.

 

[RupertW]

or didn’t see it clearly the first time.

I don't think the driver saw the green flag directly from the guard first time but the when the person on the platform saw it, they walked slightly towards power car and waved their bat at the driver. The driver however just seemed to ignore this and nothing happened until the second green flag from the guard so I was wondering if there were set stations where platform staff would be authorised to be relay the signal to the driver and in this case for some reason the driver wanted to see it directly from the guard?

 

[Bletchleyite]

- Depending on procedure, the guard will then EITHER drop a droplight window and show a green flag/light, OR give the driver the correct signal on the buzzer (usually, but not always, 2 buzzes).

At Euston the green flag is given to the dispatcher prior to closing the local door.

 

[tsr]

I don't think the driver saw the green flag directly from the guard first time but the when the person on the platform saw it, they walked slightly towards power car and waved their bat at the driver. The driver however just seemed to ignore this and nothing happened until the second green flag from the guard so I was wondering if there were set stations where platform staff would be authorised to be relay the signal to the driver and in this case for some reason the driver wanted to see it directly from the guard?

It's not so much a case of authorisation as necessity. The dispatcher doesn't need to be doing it if the driver can see. Strictly speaking, the dispatcher should also normally position themselves immediately beside the driving cab to give the green flag/light, to make it clear they are performing that task, although there are places (including several I've been involved in) where this is totally impractical.

I'm also assuming the bat was one of the illuminated versions capable of displaying a green light - if not, obviously it wouldn't be a ready-to-start signal anyway, so the driver wouldn't have gone anywhere... perhaps that's the answer...?

At Euston the green flag is given to the dispatcher prior to closing the local door.

Indeed. However, it's rather a departure from universal procedure (as the Rule Book explicitly says the guard should give a ready to start signal only when their local door is closed), and therefore best left to that handy concept of "local instructions" until such time as somebody realises it's inconsistent with what's actually needed.

 

[RupertW]

I'm also assuming the bat was one of the illuminated versions capable of displaying a green light - if not, obviously it wouldn't be a ready-to-start signal anyway, so the driver wouldn't have gone anywhere... perhaps that's the answer...?

It was an the ordinary bat (no lights).

 

[tsr]

It was an the ordinary bat (no lights).

If it wasn't green, that could well have been the problem, then!

 

[RupertW]

Has it always been the case that it has to be green (even from the platform staff)? I remember many years ago when they ran long loco hauled trains from the Birmingham to the Paignton in the summer seeing the platform staff give a hand signal or a white bat to the driver at some of the smaller stations (at the larger ones they pressed a button on the platform after seeing a green from the guard).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Indeed. However, it's rather a departure from universal procedure (as the Rule Book explicitly says the guard should give a ready to start signal only when their local door is closed), and therefore best left to that handy concept of "local instructions" until such time as somebody realises it's inconsistent with what's actually needed.

Tell that to all those involved with dispatching trains where the local door has no opening window within it. Such as classes 142, 144, 150/2, 153, 156, 158, 180, ie the vast majority of Northern's recent DMU fleet. A little bit more than local instructions to cover that lot! More like a recognition that the Rule Book was never amended to account for the rolling stock actually in use.

 

[tsr]

Tell that to all those involved with dispatching trains where the local door has no opening window within it. Such as classes 142, 144, 150/2, 153, 156, 158, 180, ie the vast majority of Northern's recent DMU fleet. A little bit more than local instructions to cover that lot! More like a recognition that the Rule Book was never amended to account for the rolling stock actually in use.

The unambiguous answer to that is to use an adjacent cab droplight (in scenarios where the bell / buzzer really really definitely can’t be used, rather than just “because we don’t”, like Euston). This, for example, is how you deal with a faulty bell on a 455 unit.

The train can be observed departing the station from a position from which you can stop the train. I can’t think of any driving cab which doesn’t have a method within it by which the train may be stopped (even if you have to close off a corridor connection on a multiple unit before dispatch, so as to be able to reach the brake controller across the cab).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The unambiguous answer to that is to use an adjacent cab droplight (in scenarios where the bell / buzzer really really definitely can’t be used, rather than just “because we don’t”, like Euston). This, for example, is how you deal with a faulty bell on a 455 unit.

The train can be observed departing the station from a position from which you can stop the train. I can’t think of any driving cab which doesn’t have a method within it by which the train may be stopped (even if you have to close off a corridor connection on a multiple unit before dispatch, so as to be able to reach the brake controller across the cab).

And that is precisely the point. Provided the bell/buzzer is working an emergency stop will be brought about more quickly via a single beat to the driver from the door control panel than by having to scramble across the rear cab to reach the brake handle. And some units have a passcomm at the door which could also be used. It is unfortunate that so many BR designs failed to take any of this into account. Drivers may not particularly like having a cab door immediately next to their seat, as per more modern unit designs, but at least this can be used as the local door and have an opening window away from the passenger area of the train. In that regard 150/1s are perfect!

 

[tsr]

And that is precisely the point. Provided the bell/buzzer is working an emergency stop will be brought about more quickly via a single beat to the driver from the door control panel than by having to scramble across the rear cab to reach the brake handle. And some units have a passcomm at the door which could also be used. It is unfortunate that so many BR designs failed to take any of this into account. Drivers may not particularly like having a cab door immediately next to their seat, as per more modern unit designs, but at least this can be used as the local door and have an opening window away from the passenger area of the train. In that regard 150/1s are perfect!

Many moons ago, the first time I gave 1 on the bell to a driver, the bell didn't even work and I had to try again. Then you're also relying on the reaction of the driver, and slightest distraction will be slower than stopping the train yourself. The passcom on the stock I was working would have been better but still not ideal (admittedly BR era stock tends to have passcoms which dump the brake, so they're fine, but often in awkward positions, such as over your head and/or behind a shield of some description).

Therefore I'm far more comfortable leaning across a cab to a brake lever or smacking the big mushroom (emergency stop button). As it happens, though, I've never had to stop the train moving off from the platform when working from the droplight, as the view is so much better than using a saloon or vestibule door without a droplight window, and you tend to see things in the split second before giving 2.

All in all, from experience, this means that using a vestibule window is far safer than using a sliding door without an opening window anyway, so for such times as you might have a bell/buzzer failure and need to use a cab window, you're likely to actually be doing everyone a favour. It's just a shame that so many trains do have poor designs of windows and/or control panels for regular operation.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Could also be because the bell buzzer communications between guard and driver might be defective so station staff despatch with flags and whistles may have been adopted. This sometimes is the case with VTEC when a EMT power car is used on a VTEC set as the bell buzzers arent compatible between midland and east coast sets (standardisation having been lost with privatisation) There is indeed one VTEC HST in service today using a EMT power car.

 

[Pete_uk]

I saw a flag being used at Gloucester Platform 2. I guess they used it because of the curved nature of the platform

 

[CC 72100]

I saw a flag being used at Gloucester Platform 2. I guess they used it because of the curved nature of the platform

No - would likely be due to bell buzzer defect as others have suggested above.

That said, because of the connections between vehicles, in my experience it does seem more likely for such a defect to manifest itself on a curve